Legal growing in WA! - 3,600 SF indoor grow. How do I set this up optimally?

My first post and it's a big one

Our company will be setting up shop at a 3600 square feet building to grow, make edibles and package MJ products. We have an experienced home grower but nothing on a commercial scale. We've been soaking up all the info online and in books, Jorge Cervantes thank you so much!

Things to consider:

• We have a warehouse with VERY high ceilings. (Pictures below)
• the warehouse is partitioned in half with a long narrow reception area separating the two.
• each space has a tall 'garage door' that might be a good idea to sheetrock over them to make a 'wall'
  I think this might help with keeping out pests and regulate the temperature

Our operation is being regulated by the state, for those of you who don't know. We haven't applied yet, because we're waiting on the county to hurry up and decide what zoning is allowed where. I haven't been to the property to measure it because there is still a tenant with things in the building that are obstructive but they are leaving on the 1st.

Questions I have about this are:

• Can anyone give us any pointers to how we can make the best usage of our space?
  If we allowed 800SF for things not 'growing', we have 2800 grow-able square feet. If one plant, with scrog and such takes up a 4x4 area (16 sf) we can grow 175 plants, or is my math off? (my mouth is watering just imagining that many plants!)
• How can we optimally hang lights and run cabling with such high ceilings?
• Should I consider 'building' mini grow rooms inside the warehouse to help with temperature and humidity concerns?
• There isn't any installed ventilation. Do i need any with such a big space?

Thank you to all who can contribute advice. This is a huge investment. I'm both excited and terrified lol

Search collectivegardener and read thru his thread. He has a warehouse. GL & ATB!

I have seen many small scale growers fail when upscaling so rapidly, be prepared for hurdles. Dont go so big that you spread resources to thin, save some for unexpected. If this is a legit business be ready for the fire marshall to do his safety inspections. Pull permits for construction as per local requirements or you could be fined and insurance null and voided. Professional hvac & electrical contractors will be great assets during startup. I like to meet with grower and hvac contractor to discuss electrical load calculations for anticipated lighting, cooling / ventilation & dehumidification.

Maybe you should have done some research before you let the dollar signs in your eyes take over. Either way, way to step over the medical people.

I personally know atleast 5 people that are either going to die, or have to become a class b felon just to have access to their medication.

i hate to say it, but I hope you and the rest of 502 fail.

mightyBUMone said:

Maybe you should have done some research before you let the dollar signs in your eyes take over. Either way, way to step over the medical people.

I personally know atleast 5 people that are either going to die, or have to become a class b felon just to have access to their medication.

i hate to say it, but I hope you and the rest of 502 fail.

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Stop being a whiney little bitch and move.

SnapsProvolone said:

Stop being a whiney little bitch and move.

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Go fuck yourself.

You have no idea what's going on in this state. And if you did, you'd keep your mouth shut.

The wslcb is destroying cannabis in this state. We already voted to take their control over liquor away. What makes you think they can handle managing cannabis? They've done nothing but lie and make false promises to the people. They are stripping away rights we already voted on for nothing more then greed and profit. Look at the OP. He has no fucking clue what he's doing, he just has dollar signs in his eyes.

If you do think I'm just being whiney, I don't sell my excess. I don't do this for a profit. I have a real job. Cannabis does not generate any income for me. I provide for myself, like we all should be allowed to do.

Wheres the logic in taking away someone's right to provide medication for themselves, just to funnel them into state stores? It's nothing more then greed.

mightyBUMone said:

Go fuck yourself.

You have no idea what's going on in this state. And if you did, you'd keep your mouth shut.

The wslcb is destroying cannabis in this state. We already voted to take their control over liquor away. What makes you think they can handle managing cannabis? They've done nothing but lie and make false promises to the people. They are stripping away rights we already voted on for nothing more then greed and profit. Look at the OP. He has no fucking clue what he's doing, he just has dollar signs in his eyes.

If you do think I'm just being whiney, I don't sell my excess. I don't do this for a profit. I have a real job. Cannabis does not generate any income for me. I provide for myself, like we all should be allowed to do.

Wheres the logic in taking away someone's right to provide medication for themselves, just to funnel them into state stores? It's nothing more then greed.

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So quit yer bitchin' and move! Doesnt take much to figure that out. Don't like the state you have the option to leave but there is no reason to be negative towards others trying to exist within the framework. You sound like a financially challenged brat who is jealous it's not your own warehouse to grow in legally. Just hating is all your doing. Try helping out and then someone might help you and yours but acting like a spoiled brat gets nothing but raised eyebrows and lowered opinions.

mightyBUMone said:

Go fuck yourself.

You have no idea what's going on in this state. And if you did, you'd keep your mouth shut.

The wslcb is destroying cannabis in this state. We already voted to take their control over liquor away. What makes you think they can handle managing cannabis? They've done nothing but lie and make false promises to the people. They are stripping away rights we already voted on for nothing more then greed and profit. Look at the OP. He has no fucking clue what he's doing, he just has dollar signs in his eyes.

If you do think I'm just being whiney, I don't sell my excess. I don't do this for a profit. I have a real job. Cannabis does not generate any income for me. I provide for myself, like we all should be allowed to do.

Wheres the logic in taking away someone's right to provide medication for themselves, just to funnel them into state stores? It's nothing more then greed.

Click to expand...

Your disdain for the legalization of Cannabis in Washington is understood but also misdirected. Wishing failure upon us simply for taking advantage of an opportunity to do something we enjoy is wholly unfair. And with that, I move back to the subject of discussion which is not MMJ vs i-502.

I think you're going to have to build out some rooms, maybe 10 foot ceilings. Your control of environmental conditions would be difficult in one large space. Temperature, ventilation, humidity and CO2 can be managed better in 10 to 20 light sized rooms, figure 6 x 6 per light to have space to move around. Depending on your method you should have about 6 plants per 1000W light. Not sure why you would want one large plant per light, don't think that would work well.

Second what Snaps said about going legit with inspectors and licensed contractors. If you think that it is too expensive just wait until they enter in the middle of a grow and shut you down for violations - now that will be expensive. The county will know where and who you are, so you might as well sit down with the building department and figure out how to make them happy with the operation. Look at what is happening in Colorado, they are ahead of us here in Washington. I saw something about the Health Department requiring cleanable surfaces in grow rooms!! Like sheets of pvc over the walls. Haven't been able to verify though.

SnapsProvolone said:

I have seen many small scale growers fail when upscaling so rapidly, be prepared for hurdles. Dont go so big that you spread resources to thin, save some for unexpected. If this is a legit business be ready for the fire marshall to do his safety inspections. Pull permits for construction as per local requirements or you could be fined and insurance null and voided. Professional hvac & electrical contractors will be great assets during startup. I like to meet with grower and hvac contractor to discuss electrical load calculations for anticipated lighting, cooling / ventilation & dehumidification.

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Snaps, good points. The state requires a very well thought out plan. Mine is currently 11 pages long but I anticipate 25 or so pages once completed.

Our two production managers have had successful grows in a garage and have done pretty well, though I know what you mean about upscaling rapidly. The space we found is large enough (and cheap enough) that we can spend time and money learning from mistakes as we go. I'm new to MJ but I'm not new to business, having owned a quarter-million dollar business in the service industry for more than 6 years. Not to say that will make me successful in this industry, but I think operation and business sense might help mitigate a few failures at least with compliance and regulation

A good attribute of the building is it does have an industrial fire alarm installed. Something i'm not familiar with is exactly what you mentioned: permits for construction. What constitutes 'construction'? If there are open framed walls like you see now, what keeps me from dividing a room but putting up unattached walls that are framed from 4x6 and plywood? It's not fixed to the building except for touching the floor. Pulling permits: does that mean actually pull permits for construction that supposedly has been done previously by the owner?

I'm looking through the forums and there is a lot i've read already but always a LOT more to be discovered I think the actual growing is the easiest part, setting it up for success, planning the production floor and cabling is more challenging. Ventilation I know is needed, but a lot of the information i'm finding applies to small scale 'secret' grows so I'm not sure how much is for actual

While some might feel the need to reply with antagonistic remarks, I have been doing lots of research. My questions were asked to see if someone who is more experienced and knowledgeable than I can offer some useful opinions. Like any business plan, there are always the "I never thought of that" moments that come through asking for others' advice.

gachogavacho said:

Your disdain for the legalization of Cannabis in Washington is understood but also misdirected. Wishing failure upon us simply for taking advantage of an opportunity to do something we enjoy is wholly unfair. And with that, I move back to the subject of discussion which is not MMJ vs i-502.

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sorry for being a dick. I'm for the legalization, just not what the state is doing with it.
With that, good luck in your venture. Hopefully 502 won't come crashing down like its set up to.

SnapsProvolone said:

So quit yer bitchin' and move! Doesnt take much to figure that out. Don't like the state you have the option to leave but there is no reason to be negative towards others trying to exist within the framework. You sound like a financially challenged brat who is jealous it's not your own warehouse to grow in legally. Just hating is all your doing. Try helping out and then someone might help you and yours but acting like a spoiled brat gets nothing but raised eyebrows and lowered opinions.

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Ive lived here all my life. Rather than abandon a sinking ship, I'll fight for my rights.
You making assumptions on my finances is dumb. I'm an adult. I have a great job, as does my wife. I'm not greedy. I grow in a 5x5 tent. Like I said before, it's for myself and I give the rest to my father to help with his colon issues.

And yeah, I was hating a little. It's an open forum. You may do the same once they start taking your rights away.

deebickle said:

I think you're going to have to build out some rooms, maybe 10 foot ceilings. Your control of environmental conditions would be difficult in one large space. Temperature, ventilation, humidity and CO2 can be managed better in 10 to 20 light sized rooms, figure 6 x 6 per light to have space to move around.

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Deeb, you confirmed my thoughts. I ran into a guy at a meeting for emerging entrepreneurs last week who is operating a 20,000sf grow operation and showed me something similar to what you're explaining. If I remember correctly, he had it setup so air would flow from one room to the other, with intake on one end of a 'daisy chain' of rooms and the outlet on the other end. I suppose vegging rooms could be set up this way and flowering on another set of 'rooms' since the conditions are different. I really would like to get us set up with an LED/MH combo but I think I'll spend our money in other ways and after our first sales come in, we can invest in more efficient lighting. LED lighting is it's own monster i'm finding, so sticking to tried and true methods is important in the beginning I think . I can't wait to do some genetics of our own!

deebickle said:

figure 6 x 6 per light to have space to move around. Depending on your method you should have about 6 plants per 1000W light. Not sure why you would want one large plant per light, don't think that would work well.

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In regards to lighting and plant ratio: By using super-cropping (topping), scrog and hydro, we hope to have potent, high yields such as in this video , I'm guessing this one plant is 4x4 of total space or what do you think? You think I could fit more plants under a 6x6 and produce like this? I know the cost of energy per ounce produced is a concern and this is an area where we will have to experiment with somewhat during our initial grow setup.

deebickle said:

Second what Snaps said about going legit with inspectors and licensed contractors. If you think that it is too expensive just wait until they enter in the middle of a grow and shut you down for violations - now that will be expensive. The county will know where and who you are, so you might as well sit down with the building department and figure out how to make them happy with the operation. Look at what is happening in Colorado, they are ahead of us here in Washington. I saw something about the Health Department requiring cleanable surfaces in grow rooms!! Like sheets of pvc over the walls. Haven't been able to verify though.

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I have indeed considered the fact that we'd have to work with all of these local agencies and thank you for pointing that out. In advance of any intervention of agencies like the health department, our plan includes food handlers permits for processing staff and some training regarding food sanitation. Pre-processing involves steps to maintain the most organic plant possible by avoiding unnecessary chemicals wherever possible. I saw a blog posting recently about how the state approved over 200 pesticides to be used and was talking about how terrible that is for the public. Just because they are approved for use doesn't mean growers want to use them at all

Sheets of PVC sounds sounds a little extreme to me, but I do want to be sanitary.

So far I've established:
- compartmentalizing is a good idea for many reasons, one especially being environmental controls.
- Permitting and such needs to be worked out in advance of beginning operations
- lighting and square footage are a concern with how plants are allocated to # of lights.

Thanks for all the help, i'm already adding these concerns to our operation plan as we speak. any other ideas? im off to read more for the time being.

What's the existing electrical service rated at? Split phase or three phase?

What are you zoned for? Will poco provide you lower commercial rates?

If your lighting all 2800 sqft that's 175kW.

Wow, 175,000 watts, to get 62.5 watts/sq ft. That's about 800 amp service if you're running 220 volt, just for the lights alone.

For the power issues, you may want to look at vertical growing systems on a professional scale. The initial capital will be high but you will save a lot on electricity, probably get a better response from planning and safety authorities, and get a much higher efficiency rating. You only have to look at some of the insane 2-3 gpw grows people have made by knocking up some pipes/frames/custom DIY designs, and a lot of these ideas have been put into commercial set ups, especially in europe.

Just some examples and food for thought.

http://www.hydroponics.eu/hydroponic-vertical-system-s-183.html

I heard some reviews on the Pi Rack being problematic, but the others i researched and seem promising. You can see from my journal i am copying one of the general ideas from one of these systems. My favourite has to be the Volksgarden. Just the ease of use makes it perfect for commercial grade production. And 80 plants using a 520w LED vertical grow light, getting around 1/2 oz each plant, that is impressive.

Snaps, thank you for shedding light on electrical. I do not know what split phase or three phase means, and our grower is actually in the know on electrical so that would be something i'll need to find out. We are zoned for industrial. I understand that the going rate is .07 here, but commercial is something higher, like .09 cents I think. Right now there are a few large electric space heaters and florescent lighting all over the place. If I understand electrical conversion 175kW is a huge amount of electricity for my initial needs.

Washington is also very cold most of the year If I draw in air from outside (with some kind of filter for mold/pollen/etc.) that should be more than enough for cooling with ventilation. I'm working on drawing up a schimatic that shows how everything is laid out including inlet/outlet for ventilation. I was planning to use the adjust a wing series per Mr. Cervantes' suggestions. What do you all think? I was looking at the DIY Led lights some people were making and I thought that was interesting because if a light fails, it can be replaced easily (and the cost of the light will be less). Our grower could do that (as could I) but I don't want to experiment with the initial grow, rather stick to what is tried and true until we have some sales. the initial investment is quite a bit

I was checking out the 20,000 watt collective gardener thread and there is so much side topic on it it's nearly impossible to read but I did see another post saying start at about page 45, there were pictures and other info.

The plants were large but the buds were very small, Collectivegardener didn't seem to post number of weeks and other important info and other people seemed to say the same: is it light issues or why is the bud so sparse and stringy? It's probably the strain also.

I'm going to document our entire operation as soon as December 9th. That's when the County will be issuing final zoning. I'll include building to packaging! Good thing is since our location will have 24/7 recording cameras, I can take stills of plants every few days and even create a time lapse of the operation.

deebickle said:

Wow, 175,000 watts, to get 62.5 watts/sq ft. That's about 800 amp service if you're running 220 volt, just for the lights alone.

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The electrical/lighting is probably my weakest area of knowledge and I need to get more specific info form the landlord. We can start somewhat smaller and ramp up as we can afford to make improvements also. What do you think about doing it that way?

if you were in mi I would set it up for you . and get you the equipment close to whole sale. only advice is start small work your way large. you will need to spend 30 k on equipment to do that correctly. and honestly I would hire some body that's knows . or you will be redoing it and money loss. you need to hire a teacher. to help you grow and set it up. your scale of plants. you need 4 plants per 1000 watt lamp to pull 8 ounces per plant. tomato cage style. a serous ac system. mabe two 5 ton btu will do it. 2 ten burner co2 generators. a shit load of hps. and you need to decide if you will do them in stages all at once or half veg and half flower. I suggest half and half . you also need a smaller room with a small ac running to keep it 65 f for your clone room. ( HIRE A TEACHER ) save money.

gachogavacho said:

The electrical/lighting is probably my weakest area of knowledge and I need to get more specific info form the landlord. We can start somewhat smaller and ramp up as we can afford to make improvements also. What do you think about doing it that way?

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Figure out what your electrical service is sized at. Then plan your operating parameters based on what you can do with that. Flip boxes are nice, staggering two halves of your flowering capacity in two rooms can double your output. Usually cooling requirement is about 4000 btu per 1kW lamp. 3000 ish if your venting your reflectors. Use remote ballasts to relocate transformer heat.

Kinddiesel, thanks for your expertise. While my grower I have now is not a large scale guy, I've seen what he's done in his garage and I have been assimilating all of Jorge Cervantes' books and videos so between those two things I think i'm already in a better position. I understand a great deal but as you mentioned I do need mentoring and holly hell would I be upset to find I wasted thousands of dollars doing something that wasn't optimal. I did meet a guy who said he would help me, but i'll be straight with you - paid work gets the best results and I think everyone should be compensated for their efforts. I'll see what he says.

I'm seriously thinking that LED with a single Metal Halide in each 'room' for a varied spectrum will produce some good results. Induction lights seem to have the best light but they seem to be just as or more expensive than LED. I just have to double and triple check warranty info, reliability and buy a results-proven piece of equipment after researching more and more. Man If I can get one good crop in, i'm golden. I can reinvest everything back in on improvements so the next crop is even better. I can foot the operating costs easily, but I want to at least cover my initial investment. I think i'll be ok.

And getting me some equipment wholesale or some pointers on how I can do it locally is absolutely welcome info! I'm looking at buying discount lumber and building stuff already, where I can get the best parts, most of which will be done by our team. I may hire people I trust to help with framing, but it's the way to set up the production floor that is weird for me now. I'm making a pseudo-schematic in adobe illustrator right now just so I can kind of see what i'm working with in terms of space.
I'll upload it so you guys can give your input.

Half and half sounds like a good plan. I do want to keep a crop going constantly so I don't have retailers calling me wanting product I don't have. I hate going to the dispensary for something and they're out of it lol