Led Users Unite!

What size grow spaces / tents are leds being used for? What are the recommended amounts of (actual) wattage for a 3x3 and 4x4 tent? How many 3g plants could fit in each of those spaces if vegged 4-6 weeks? I feel I know the answers to these questions already but interested in what others recommend. Thanks!

kush groove said:

why is it that everyone who didnt purchase a blackstar led always know how crappy they are...........and they guy who did purchase it, loves it..........makes you wonder

when you start hearing complaints of blackstars breaking down then you can talk all the crap you want to about heatsinks and 5 year warranties......but until then you should only comment on what you know, not what you believe

i havent even heard any complaints at all about the older model lighthouse hydro lights.....so, go figure

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Yeah I made sure to clarify that I hadn't heard of any actual issues with Blackstar and that they definitely grow. In fact I haven't really heard of any company besides Kessil as far as LED units breaking down in the last few years (and only very recently so I imagine there was some kind of factory error and not design flaw), although there are people that complain about losing half their light when 1 LED dies (so I make sure to bring it up because its one of the few things that hardly any LED companies seems to work on). So I tell people if you want a good LED without spending more than $250-275 (costs about $2.1 per actual watt upfront) go with Blackstar '240w' (130-140w), or if they have at least $500 to spend on LED go GLH (for all the stuff not included in most panels)

I don't talk crap about any companies except for them misleading about their wattage ratings (most companies don't actually lie, they just mislead). I have nothing against the newer 3w Blackstar 240w units except that they are not instead listed more like 240w (133w into LEDs). I'm not saying people shouldn't get these, I'm saying they are a great alternative for those that cannot afford GLH instead (because they have the extra features, longer warranty is extra frosting on the cake).

I'm pretty sure most people would find a company selling them a 5 year warranty to care more about how long their product lasts compared to another company selling a product to achieve the same ends with only 2-3 year warranty? To act like it doesn't matter is silly, companies calculate warranties based on how long the unit will last and how long they think they can go before they have to worry about you having warranty issues* *so if you do the math this way you will almost always come out on top with the one that lasts twice as long.

But again there are plenty of reasons why one would be better off with multiple 240w blackstar than GLH at all, so I also tell of them.

puffenuff said:

What size grow spaces / tents are leds being used for? What are the recommended amounts of (actual) wattage for a 3x3 and 4x4 tent? How many 3g plants could fit in each of those spaces if vegged 4-6 weeks? I feel I know the answers to these questions already but interested in what others recommend. Thanks!

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Well it depends on how many watts are in each unit. It would be much easier to cover an area with fewer watts using a dozen units instead of several. But lets assume for a 3x3 you only have room for 1 good light, I should think 400w of LED from a 3w 12 spectrum panel would probably be just where you would start to have more light than you will reasonably use (I have a 395w in a 2.5 x 2.5 x6 tent and its definitely over kill). For a 4 x 4 I would probably get 2-3 180w Spectra or 1-2 of the 290w or 500w.

But then you should also consider how you grow, do you have more than 1 plant chamber and why? Do you do any training such as SCROG? etc... There is no reason to use say a 395w 3w/12spectrum LED on plants under a month old unless I can keep the light at least 4 ft away (too close and new nodes start so quickly their height has barely raised in the first month on the plants I threw in at 2ft as seedlings! But that would be a waste when I could get just as much done with a cheap 100w veg LED?

You should take it all into consideration and think about it awhile, maybe do math. But I would suggest that people always go with more lower watt panels especially for flowering. One of the great advantages of LED over HID is instead of having all the light coming from all directions out of a drinking glass sized bulb you having coming in a very focuses path from 1 side (plus LED is more efficient anyway). So to take better advantage of LED one would go many panels spread out instead of a few strong ones (that would also have to be raised higher to cover a greater area, reducing efficiency).

So yeah, there is a lot to consider when buying into LED for anyone, unless they already know what they need and are simply looking for the best panel for the money. I know who I would vote for, but that doesn't mean I think everyone should only buy from them all the time.

jdizzle22 said:

Yeah I made sure to clarify that I hadn't heard of any actual issues with Blackstar and that they definitely grow. In fact I haven't really heard of any company besides Kessil as far as LED units breaking down in the last few years (and only very recently so I imagine there was some kind of factory error and not design flaw), although there are people that complain about losing half their light when 1 LED dies (so I make sure to bring it up because its one of the few things that hardly any LED companies seems to work on). So I tell people if you want a good LED without spending more than $250-275 (costs about $2.1 per actual watt upfront) go with Blackstar '240w' (130-140w), or if they have at least $500 to spend on LED go GLH (for all the stuff not included in most panels)

I don't talk crap about any companies except for them misleading about their wattage ratings (most companies don't actually lie, they just mislead). I have nothing against the newer 3w Blackstar 240w units except that they are not instead listed more like 240w (133w into LEDs). I'm not saying people shouldn't get these, I'm saying they are a great alternative for those that cannot afford GLH instead (because they have the extra features, longer warranty is extra frosting on the cake).

I'm pretty sure most people would find a company selling them a 5 year warranty to care more about how long their product lasts compared to another company selling a product to achieve the same ends with only 2-3 year warranty? To act like it doesn't matter is silly, companies calculate warranties based on how long the unit will last and how long they think they can go before they have to worry about you having warranty issues* *so if you do the math this way you will almost always come out on top with the one that lasts twice as long.

But again there are plenty of reasons why one would be better off with multiple 240w blackstar than GLH at all, so I also tell of them.

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i agree with most of what you said.......but now i just look at led labeling like cfl's
the 100watt bulbs are only 42watt...i know plenty of ppl that still find still cant figure that out lol
the 240 is what it is equivalent to in hps obviously........kinda misleading, yeah..but not really

and for the record im the guy that buys electronics and never purchases the extended warranty on anything...no matter how much it costs......learn how to take care of your shit and it goes a long way......the standard one year manufacturers warranty that all electronics have is good enough for my led

and if what your implying about companies and warranties are true, and it is somewhat, then hyundai and kia must have the best cars on the road...10 year 100,000 mile warranty...........what are you guys driving??

speaking of driving we should be talking about mpg......that misleading sticker on my car has been killing me these days......whats up with that shit??? 4.26 a gallon wtf

jdizzle22 said:

Well it depends on how many watts are in each unit. It would be much easier to cover an area with fewer watts using a dozen units instead of several. But lets assume for a 3x3 you only have room for 1 good light, I should think 400w of LED from a 3w 12 spectrum panel would probably be just where you would start to have more light than you will reasonably use (I have a 395w in a 2.5 x 2.5 x6 tent and its definitely over kill). For a 4 x 4 I would probably get 2-3 180w Spectra or 1-2 of the 290w or 500w.

But then you should also consider how you grow, do you have more than 1 plant chamber and why? Do you do any training such as SCROG? etc... There is no reason to use say a 395w 3w/12spectrum LED on plants under a month old unless I can keep the light at least 4 ft away (too close and new nodes start so quickly their height has barely raised in the first month on the plants I threw in at 2ft as seedlings! But that would be a waste when I could get just as much done with a cheap 100w veg LED?

You should take it all into consideration and think about it awhile, maybe do math. But I would suggest that people always go with more lower watt panels especially for flowering. One of the great advantages of LED over HID is instead of having all the light coming from all directions out of a drinking glass sized bulb you having coming in a very focuses path from 1 side (plus LED is more efficient anyway). So to take better advantage of LED one would go many panels spread out instead of a few strong ones (that would also have to be raised higher to cover a greater area, reducing efficiency).

So yeah, there is a lot to consider when buying into LED for anyone, unless they already know what they need and are simply looking for the best panel for the money. I know who I would vote for, but that doesn't mean I think everyone should only buy from them all the time.

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So youre recommending about 400w (actual) for a 3x3 or 4x4? I already run 210w (180 + 15 + 15) in a 3'L x 1.5'w space...i don't do training but will likely in the future due to my plants reaching too close to the lights. How many plants would you recommend in 3g pots in a 3x3 or 4x4 tent running at 400w actual led power? Thanks

puffenuff said:

So youre recommending about 400w (actual) for a 3x3 or 4x4? I already run 210w (180 + 15 + 15) in a 3'L x 1.5'w space...i don't do training but will likely in the future due to my plants reaching too close to the lights. How many plants would you recommend in 3g pots in a 3x3 or 4x4 tent running at 400w actual led power? Thanks

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I would need more info such as the dimensions of the pots and how high the ceiling is from the floor, and also what LED lights you are using. But here goes nothing until you do?

3x3
SOG 9-12 in .8 gallon air pots
SCROG 4
LST 4-5
0training- 5-9

4x4 I would at least double your watts to 400 for a space this big*. For a space this large I would probably have bought 4 180w Spectra myself, or 6-8 '240w' Blackstar, or perhaps 8-12 kessils).
SOG 18- 24 in .8 gallon air pots
SCROG 6-8
LST 6-8
0training- 8-12

* I feel 50w per sq. ft is the upper end for LED (at least for 3w 12 spectrum panels, as no one seems to sell higher than 3w or more than 12 yet). With 1w panels and fewer spectrums I imagine you could cram more watts into each sq foot before having light bleaching or issues with TMNT (too many new tips, lets coin the term people! lol). You certainly don't need 50w of LED per sq. ft since it is more efficient than HID, I'm just saying going more than 50 is probably pointless/wasteful

jdizzle22 said:

I would need more info such as the dimensions of the pots and how high the ceiling is from the floor, and also what LED lights you are using. But here goes nothing until you do?

3x3
SOG 9-12 in .8 gallon air pots
SCROG 4
LST 4-5
0training- 5-9

4x4 I would at least double your watts to 400 for a space this big*. For a space this large I would probably have bought 4 180w Spectra myself, or 6-8 '240w' Blackstar, or perhaps 8-12 kessils).
SOG 18- 24 in .8 gallon air pots
SCROG 6-8
LST 6-8
0training- 8-12

* I feel 50w per sq. ft is the upper end for LED

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Awesome, thank you. That last sentence is basically the answer I was looking for. Pots are 3 gallon round ones. Ceiling is 6 ft above floor. Lights are 3w models. I'll probably just end up getting another 180w panel to bring up my watts to 390 and do about 6 plants in a 3x3x6 tent for my next venture. Sounds good to everyone else?

puffenuff said:

Awesome, thank you. That last sentence is basically the answer I was looking for. Pots are 3 gallon round ones. Ceiling is 6 ft above floor. Lights are 3w models. I'll probably just end up getting another 180w panel to bring up my watts to 390 and do about 6 plants in a 3x3x6 tent for my next venture. Sounds good to everyone else?

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Yeah that should work out great for you, remember though you can get away with using a lot less than 390w the first month in that space (it will probably be extra tempting between the new light and all the extra room you will have over your old space.

i wonder why use a bypas resitor wen you could use a light emitting diode of a higher resistance in the first place and if one diode fails the one of higher resistance acts as a bypas and keeps the light nearly the same

also the 1w diodes ib my old 90w that i shiped back were bigger than 1mm^2 they were like 2mmx2mm they were about double or more thickness of my 0.73mm guitar picks and the 3w ones i have in the new panel are about bb sized thats prolly cuz of flaws in manufacturing proces need a larer diode to handle th flaws per quare millimeter and be able to tae the power drive

i got some nichia right now that work ust fine off a chunk of aluminum an i got s laser thermometer on order to check just what you say junction temp even ordered a couple peltier colers and got a couple of the 100w leds like this http://tesladownunder.com/LEDs.htm#100 W LED on order but theyre newer more efficient models

and yea i know blue is worked on more because blue light is more energetic and easier to convert down to green adn red bet if they made a god red phosphor to work with the blue/uv diodes theyd have a killer light for growing

Found this today, WEBENCH tool is cool. http://www.national.com/analog/led/high_brightness

kush groove said:

i agree with most of what you said.......but now i just look at led labeling like cfl's
the 100watt bulbs are only 42watt...i know plenty of ppl that still find still cant figure that out lol
the 240 is what it is equivalent to in hps obviously........kinda misleading, yeah..but not really

and for the record im the guy that buys electronics and never purchases the extended warranty on anything...no matter how much it costs......learn how to take care of your shit and it goes a long way......the standard one year manufacturers warranty that all electronics have is good enough for my led

and if what your implying about companies and warranties are true, and it is somewhat, then hyundai and kia must have the best cars on the road...10 year 100,000 mile warranty...........what are you guys driving??

speaking of driving we should be talking about mpg......that misleading sticker on my car has been killing me these days......whats up with that shit??? 4.26 a gallon wtf

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I've got a Hyundai car, SUV and a Toyota truck. Was a GM guy for 20 years (cars and trucks) and even used to race GM (drag raced using a 455 Buick). After paying through the ass at the service counter (especially the last ten years) gave up on em. I mean seriously how can a truck with off road suspension (I had two Z71's) need a new front end every 18 months driving on pavement and gravel roads. My 05 Tundra has gone 5 years and still only needs shocks. When I gave up on GM I checked out JD Powers ratings for reliability and bought the vehicles I did and I'm happy. I wish JD Power would rate LED Panels and save us all some grief

I don't buy extended warranties on electronics either

Blackstar does get a bit of a bum rap but I can't say I'm surprised. If a new vehicle came out tomorrow and the manufacturer announced that it didn't have a radiator and just a 2ft aluminum pipe cause that's all you for heat dissapation how many people would trust it?

I think one of the big misunderstandings with LED's is the heat generation. The LED's in all of our panels aren't actually more efficient than HID. With the exception of some prototypes and the latest round of CREE (which aren't available in the spectrums we need yet, just white) HID are marginally more efficient at producing light than LED. The big difference is that LED's don't produce as much light as they only produce light in the spectrums needed. Although they are slightly less efficient they produce less heat because they are using less power by not wasting it producing unusable light.

Short version is that as a rule of thumb 250watts of LED give off pretty much the same heat as 250watt of HID. Big difference is that 250 watts of quality LED will replace 500 watts of HID IMO so thats where the heat savings is.

The other issue is that HID lights radiate heat from the light source (filament) so right off the front of the light. LED's generate heat at the junction so the back of the diode. This is why LED's generally seem cooler as they don't "shoot" heat out the front, they store it in the back. If you don't un-store that heat properly (heat sink) their life span is dramatically shortened. If you want some great reading I can post links to engineering blogs discussing the importance of heat management in LED's

The kicker is that even a dramatic shortening in life span still means they are probably gonna produce light for a year. Blackstar is fairly new, as are many of the manufacturers, so we are a ways off seeing how their engineering will hold up.

I don't consider pointing that out hating on Blackstar. It's just one factor in the decision to buy a particular light. Another factor is definately cost and BS is winning lots of fans in that area.

I doubt they are 'resistors' in the circuit as these would not work- if they went cheap they are probably zener diodes with a zener voltage just above what they are expecting or have tested maximum Vf of the LED's they are using. The LED fails (open) and driver voltage begins to approach the clamp level of the driver circuit, the zener exceeds it's zener breakdown voltage and begins carrying current, and all is well for the remaining LED's in the series string. When the LED is operating correctly, the voltage across the zener device never reaches it's breakdown voltage- it just sits there.

If they went expensive they would be using semiconductor clamps designed specifically for HBLED purposes- but again, these devices are not cheap, and to do it right you would be using a lot of them, one across each LED die, or best case maybe 1 protection device across 3 LED dies- still a lot of $$$. They work something like a glorified SCR, with enhanced functionality to cover virtually all failure modes of the LED as well as giving reasonable protection against ESD events.

Aside from offering limited protection, the real problem with the zener scheme is that these zener devices may not be able to carry the bypass current and may eventually fail as well- they typically aren't designed to handle these current levels long term- this is not an issue you would associate with a device based on an SCR. If you are looking at your light and the device is a little tubular, round looking thing, it is probably most certainly a zener- if it is a little black box then it could be either, as zeners come in a host of packaging styles but the SCR type protector is almost always a little black box.

astroastro said:

I doubt they are 'resistors' in the circuit as these would not work- if they went cheap they are probably zener diodes with a zener voltage just above what they are expecting or have tested maximum Vf of the LED's they are using. The LED fails (open) and driver voltage begins to approach the clamp level of the driver circuit, the zener exceeds it's zener breakdown voltage and begins carrying current, and all is well for the remaining LED's in the series string. When the LED is operating correctly, the voltage across the zener device never reaches it's breakdown voltage- it just sits there.

If they went expensive they would be using semiconductor clamps designed specifically for HBLED purposes- but again, these devices are not cheap, and to do it right you would be using a lot of them, one across each LED die, or best case maybe 1 protection device across 3 LED dies- still a lot of $$$. They work something like a glorified SCR, with enhanced functionality to cover virtually all failure modes of the LED as well as giving reasonable protection against ESD events.

Aside from offering limited protection, the real problem with the zener scheme is that these zener devices may not be able to carry the bypass current and may eventually fail as well- they typically aren't designed to handle these current levels long term- this is not an issue you would associate with a device based on an SCR. If you are looking at your light and the device is a little tubular, round looking thing, it is probably most certainly a zener- if it is a little black box then it could be either, as zeners come in a host of packaging styles but the SCR type protector is almost always a little black box.

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I am under the impression that the function of bypass resistors on each LED is based on electricity taking the path of least resistance (LED) until the LED fails (infinite resistance) and then goes through the resistor. The resistor consumes enough power to ensure that the current doesn't increase and overload the rest of the LED's in the series causing cascading failures. I'm no engineer so wondering what is is about this configuration that doesn't work?

dunit said:

I am under the impression that the function of bypass resistors on each LED is based on electricity taking the path of least resistance (LED) until the LED fails (infinite resistance) and then goes through the resistor. The resistor consumes enough power to ensure that the current doesn't increase and overload the rest of the LED's in the series causing cascading failures. I'm no engineer so wondering what is is about this configuration that doesn't work?

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yeah pretty sure thats it how it works, I've definitely seen it described that way by someone who claimed experience. Once the LED fails the power simply travels through the bitty thing to the next LED

And dunit its PAR watts that really count with LED and I think its PAR watts is what they are so much more efficient at, not just light in general or light humans can see. To say you can't grow plants more efficiently with 400w of LED than with 400w of HID would be ridiculous! They are far more efficient at producing lights the plants can actually use because they are 1 spectrum output (not wasted on on many like HID) and they produce far more light per watt than HID as they also produce like 80% less heat per watt (that turns into light instead of heat). My 395w 12 spectrum panel (252 3w LEDs run avg of 1.52w so really its like 383w of 3w LEDs and 12w of fans) is putting out so much light that even at 4 ft away from the tops of my plants they are still growing very slowly in size because they are putting out soooooo many new petiole and primodium! I'm actually trying to get mine exchanged for a less powerful unit because its so much better watt for watt than HID (I had a 400w HPS before). My month old plants (the ones that were under LED as soon as they popped) are the size of 2 week HID plants but they have WAY WAY more nodes

Definitely didn't have any issues like that with a 400w HPS
I'm gonna try and downgrade from a 395w panel to a 290w so that I go from 61 something watts per square foot down to a more reasonable 40-50w per sq ft

astroastro said:

I doubt they are 'resistors' in the circuit as these would not work- if they went cheap they are probably zener diodes with a zener voltage just above what they are expecting or have tested maximum Vf of the LED's they are using. The LED fails (open) and driver voltage begins to approach the clamp level of the driver circuit, the zener exceeds it's zener breakdown voltage and begins carrying current, and all is well for the remaining LED's in the series string. When the LED is operating correctly, the voltage across the zener device never reaches it's breakdown voltage- it just sits there.

If they went expensive they would be using semiconductor clamps designed specifically for HBLED purposes- but again, these devices are not cheap, and to do it right you would be using a lot of them, one across each LED die, or best case maybe 1 protection device across 3 LED dies- still a lot of $$$. They work something like a glorified SCR, with enhanced functionality to cover virtually all failure modes of the LED as well as giving reasonable protection against ESD events.

Aside from offering limited protection, the real problem with the zener scheme is that these zener devices may not be able to carry the bypass current and may eventually fail as well- they typically aren't designed to handle these current levels long term- this is not an issue you would associate with a device based on an SCR. If you are looking at your light and the device is a little tubular, round looking thing, it is probably most certainly a zener- if it is a little black box then it could be either, as zeners come in a host of packaging styles but the SCR type protector is almost always a little black box.

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path of lest resistance bro thats why there are resistors on there now on the other hand they do make special leds with higher resistance but they are lower efficiency and so they arent as good thats why they are not in panels today

i just found out my egl panels hae UV in them the blue diodes are a uv bae i hae a green lighter and you put t under red adn blue onyl light and it shines green brighter than everything else around it same thing under my blacklight i hope its uvb and not uva though uva supposed to control flavors

HTG change their LED? The first 120w I got had 112 leds (good grow from that one). The second one I got had 55 leds w/ diodes? Both say 120w on the label.

dannydakota said:

HTG change their LED? The first 120w I got had 112 leds (good grow from that one). The second one I got had 55 leds w/ diodes? Both say 120w on the label.

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everyone is starting to switch to what GLH has been rollin. That now makes for a total of 3 companies going the whole resistors thing and generally look very much like a Spectra. Seems GLH may have beat everyone by 3-4 months as far as 3w panels with these resistors (I think one of the companies may have been doing it before GLH but they still use 1w diodes!)

I wonder if that HTG has the PCB or a finned heat sink too? Yeah it has 60 3w LEDs that run on average of 1.95w or so each. All the spectra panels are the same I believe, all 3w diodes that run on avg of 1.95w.

So you are still getting 120w, just from fewer distribution points. Although this isn't bad because 3w diodes are much better so it should still be a better light even though it uses as much power!

A new era/generation of LEDs is upon us!
LET IT BE KNOWN THAT 2011 IS THE OFFICIAL YEAR LED BECAME >HPS

They are actually diodes and not resistors. I'm hoping it does as well or better!

Oh hey and for anyone who still remembers, when I was ranting about the light being too strong to close and all that with my plants, I totally forgot something MAJOR IMPORTANT and I gotta run damage control.

Basically I forgot I put a bunch of Mykos and Azos in their soil mix, that is the issue because even the much more powerful 500w Spectra (my 395w still runs 3w diodes at 1.52w) is vegging for people just fine at 2ft while I cower at 4ft.

I simply put too many micro organisms in the soil and they are making it so easy for the plants to eat and the LED so easy to get great light that they are putting all their work into growing new petiole and primodium and thus the inter nodes are too short and the over all size of the 2 plants is half what it would be with HID 1 month in (but has WAY more nodes). I put all that work into raising my light for nothing! lol *the plant that had 5 days and the other 8 under CFL are about the same size as 1 month 400w HID plants? They are stunted but it would seem that even 1 week as seedling under CFL made a HUGE difference for them before going under the 395w panel at 2ft for 1 month. Even with this same mix of soil (I mixed it all up this way so I'm stuck with it for a bit), if I keep seedlings in my 4x24wCFL PC grow box for 2 weeks (then under LED) I shouldn't have any issue catching up and getting past plants that were under HID the whole time after 1 month

My mix would be INSANE for a patient SCROG grower! also a ton of work with so many nodes!

jdizzle please explain to me in a little more ignorant terms what it is you've said exactly your saying you can control how much inter nodes appear on the plant? now I am really questioning my knowledge of cannabis and what is petiole and primodium ? im super lost bro