LEC - Light-Emitting Ceramic

ttystikk said:

Look closer; those photos of the wrong wavelength hit something, get absorbed... and then re-radiated- as HEAT. That heat then stimulates transpiration, which draws nutrients up the stem.

If what you did was true, then green lamps would upset the plant's dark cycle, and of course they don't.

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Actually your claim about green, yellow, and orange photons not being useful doesn't sit well with me. Obviously they are better than nothing and if anything replicate the Sun more so than just monochroming.

I'm pretty sure @stardustsailor and a few others have debunked the myth about those mentioned photons not being of any value.

Anyhow, I'm going to believe Sailor over most of you here based on his countless, credible demonstrations. I only have so much time for absorbing information and he seems to do a great job, if not the best, at explaining all that there is to know about lights and plants.

Also, I thought green lights DID in fact upset the night cycle for some plants? Intensity could be a factor..

churchhaze said:

You should do both LEC and DIY led. I've always suggested people setup a prototype first.

You've gotta add something to your room. (assuming you didn't add anything yet)

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I'll be adding it all at one point or another! I appreciate all the input you've given thus far and I look forward to more of your insights.

AquariusPanta said:

Actually your claim about green, yellow, and orange photons not being useful doesn't sit well with me. Obviously they are better than nothing and if anything replicate the Sun more so than just monochroming.

I'm pretty sure @stardustsailor and a few others have debunked the myth about those mentioned photons not being of any value.

Anyhow, I'm going to believe Sailor over most of you here based on his countless, credible demonstrations. I only have so much time for absorbing information and he seems to do a great job, if not the best, at explaining all that there is to know about lights and plants.

Also, I thought green lights DID in fact upset the night cycle for some plants? Intensity could be a factor..

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I'm being misrepresented. What I said was that plants don't get very much benefit from these wavelengths, certainly less than they do from others. If this weren't true, then there would be no advantage to upgrade from HPS lighting.

Considering my lighting investment, I'd like to believe that photos are photons, wavelength be damned! But we all know this isn't the case, and that what I said above is substantially correct.

HPS lighting has a color rendering index (CRI) of just 20-22 on a linear scale of 0-100. That's a pretty piss poor imitation of noontime sunlight, which is the definition of 100. These newer HID options have CRI values in the nineties. If your benchmark is imitating sunlight response, you've just made my point for me.

AquariusPanta said:

Which one out of the bunch, today, boasts the highest efficiency?

I'm under the impression that it's the LEC but would like to read your thoughts.

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LED!

On paper, you'd be better off asking the LED guys, as long as they downplay both side equally the comparison should still make sense.

When you ask me about efficiency I'm not talking wall-plug efficiency or luminous efficiency but how efficient a bulb is in growing both quantity and quality MJ in a given space. And with quality I'm not just talking frosty dank but compact and large enough it can be trimmed to commercial quality bud. Specifically, something I know a coffeeshop would buy for more than the lowest price, and hence something I'd buy at a coffeeshop.

The HPS has a bad spectrum claim is in practice not true. It's based on a limited understanding (not here specifically but in general) of photoreceptors. The focus on blue and red is partly because their role is more clear. That doesn't make the rest useless, not even green, especially at high intensity light. I haven't even included that in my comparison earlier... imagine what I'd be growing if that useless yellow of my old hps bulb would be blue and/or red instead... according to led bible number, not me...

The CMH bulb is developed for the US market. It's available here, but still rare. Being that phillips and gavita in NL no longer supply to dutch growers I think it may become a popular import product. For smaller growers. To replace a 400watter or for veg light.

Gavita/philips is good for 1gpw+ of compact commercial quality nuggets. CMH supposedly results in frostier bud. So do PK boosters, supposedly. It's known red directly affects fruit size in many species, perhaps you just get less bud but the same amount of trichs... on leaves... lots and lots of leaves. Besides that, I have no problem produce white bud under HPS...

Simply put, I don't know man, I don't have enough data (as in real world result not bibled numbers) to compare yet. I'm leaning towards 2x 315w myself so I can build a rectangular closet instead of square. Either that or a gavita 6/750 (which I may have to import as well...) or another year of Phillips GreenPower SE 600w, which I can pick up at a local shop. The market is messed up here at the moment and I'm not in a gpw or efficiency race so I might just wait for that Gavillips hybrid light lol

Oh and I agree with churchhaze, LEC and LED combined is one of the best routes at the moment. CMH can be used to supplement HPS as is done (and by phillips recommended for certain species) in large scale grows with HPI-T MH, but with a small amount of bulbs you can never get a uniform spread of the spectrum. A HID in the middle with LEDs around it however... that allows for some interesting possibilities.

Sativied said:

When you ask me about efficiency I'm not talking wall-plug efficiency or luminous efficiency but how efficient a bulb is in growing both quantity and quality MJ in a given space. And with quality I'm not just talking frosty dank but compact and large enough it can be trimmed to commercial quality bud. Specifically, something I know a coffeeshop would buy for more than the lowest price, and hence something I'd buy at a coffeeshop.

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cobs alone excel at doing just that. They really are marvelous little units. They're expensive, but the results from many of the members here is undeniable. Greengenes run with gorilla glue looks out of this world.Then again groerr is doing wonderful with his LEC as well. SO?

All plants care about is photons, and don't care where they come from.

I can't run a bare bulb vert setup, and high quality HID reflectors are expensive. The price for me to build a 300w LED unit is only a tad more than the price of a quality 315w setup. $450 for an LED or $420 for the HID, but there are no reoccurring costs(lamp replacement) with the LED unit. So It's a no brainer(in my situation)

I would love to get 2 3x3 tents...or just build little rooms...put an 315 in one and my drone in the other. I have been thinking about it since before this run. They pull near identical wattages and should cover the same area. And then let the photons battle it out. I have been trying to figure out how I can do it legitimately and block any cross over, but not cut back my normal garden.

Plus they would be near the same cost as well. So that is no longer an argument.

Greengenes707 said:

I would love to get 2 3x3 tents...or just build little rooms...put an 315 in one and my drone in the other. I have been thinking about it since before this run. They pull near identical wattages and should cover the same area. And then let the photons battle it out. I have been trying to figure out how I can do it legitimately and block any cross over, but not cut back my normal garden.

Plus they would be near the same cost as well. So that is no longer an argument.

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It goes without saying that I'd love to see it. I can't believe anyone could possibly see your results and still ask questions like "Why doesn't LED penetrate".

bicit said:

cobs alone excel at doing just that. They really are marvelous little units. They're expensive, but the results from many of the members here is undeniable. Greengenes run with gorilla glue looks out of this world.Then again groerr is doing wonderful with his LEC as well. SO?

All plants care about is photons, and don't care where they come from.

I can't run a bare bulb vert setup, and high quality HID reflectors are expensive. The price for me to build a 300w LED unit is only a tad more than the price of a quality 315w setup. $450 for an LED or $420 for the HID, but there are no reoccurring costs(lamp replacement) with the LED unit. So It's a no brainer(in my situation)

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Huh? Where are these 450$ 300w actual LEDs you speak of?

vitamin_green_inc said:

Huh? Where are these 450$ 300w actual LEDs you speak of?

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Its probably closer too 500. But not all diy lights have to be top dollar. Vero 29 s are a nice economical option... once they're in stock.

bicit said:

Its probably closer too 500. But not all diy lights have to be top dollar. Vero 29 s are a nice economical option... once they're in stock.

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They will never be in stock.. lol. Could you imagine had I waited?

Greengenes707 said:

I would love to get 2 3x3 tents...or just build little rooms...put an 315 in one and my drone in the other. I have been thinking about it since before this run. They pull near identical wattages and should cover the same area. And then let the photons battle it out. I have been trying to figure out how I can do it legitimately and block any cross over, but not cut back my normal garden.

Plus they would be near the same cost as well. So that is no longer an argument.

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That would be awesome, I think it'd be close but would like to see the outcome. I should get on it and build a damn panel, to much shit going on, damn work always getting in the way of the growing

churchhaze said:

They will never be in stock.. lol. Could you imagine had I waited?

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I gave up myself and ordered cxb3590's...w can't wait any more

Greengenes707 said:

I would love to get 2 3x3 tents...or just build little rooms...put an 315 in one and my drone in the other. I have been thinking about it since before this run. They pull near identical wattages and should cover the same area. And then let the photons battle it out. I have been trying to figure out how I can do it legitimately and block any cross over, but not cut back my normal garden.

Plus they would be near the same cost as well. So that is no longer an argument.

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I haven't compared flowered plants directly, as my last run i only flowered half way with cob before putting plants to finish under cmh due to needing more room for veg which is where my cob build is. But i will say since i get better veg under my cob than the 315 watt cmh which pulls 342 from the wall, I'd say it will flower better as well. Its tough for me to say for sure with flower because i get great results with the plants under my 315 watt agro elite...BUT it is placed between two 860 watt cmh so its not a fair scenario. I'll do my best to set up a side by side in the near future tho as I am restructuring my veg area.

Sun system over a 30" x 28" footprint at 26" height

So I dont know if this video has been posted here yet? Anyway, around 10-1130 is where they do the uMole chart for the Sun System LEC.
So at a height below 18 inches, I guess the LEC lights are literally too powerful, and you will be limiting the growth as the uMole hits over 1200 at 18 inches and at 24 inches has an average of 730~ all the way to the edge of the 3x3 footprint...

vitamin_green_inc said:

So I dont know if this video has been posted here yet? Anyway, around 10-1130 is where they do the uMole chart for the Sun System LEC.
So at a height below 18 inches, I guess the LEC lights are literally too powerful, and you will be limiting the growth as the uMole hits over 1200 at 18 inches and at 24 inches has an average of 730~ all the way to the edge of the 3x3 footprint..

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Hadn't seen this one but it confirms basically what I've seen with these, anything below 18" is too intense and you'll get some burn, the 18-20, even 20-22" is a good balance between intensity and coverage based on their numbers, for flowering of course. 24-30" with the 4200k for veg is probably good and would give you a wider footprint.

GroErr said:

Hadn't seen this one but it confirms basically what I've seen with these, anything below 18" is too intense and you'll get some burn, the 18-20, even 20-22" is a good balance between intensity and coverage based on their numbers, for flowering of course. 24-30" with the 4200k for veg is probably good and would give you a wider footprint.

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You're right. Sorry, I should have distinguished between veg and flower.

I really don't see how this tech could beat LED for Veg though. You could use cheap China panels for veg and spend $200-300 and get a panel that will cover like 12-16 sq feet and the LED is more efficient as a rule.

These lights for me, are flower only. And only because to equal those uMole numbers with LED the startup price would be x2 if not x2.5 more $

vitamin_green_inc said:

You're right. Sorry, I should have distinguished between veg and flower.

I really don't see how this tech could beat LED for Veg though. You could use cheap China panels for veg and spend $200-300 and get a panel that will cover like 12-16 sq feet and the LED is more efficient as a rule.

These lights for me, are flower only. And only because to equal those uMole numbers with LED the startup price would be x2 if not x2.5 more $

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That's exactly what I do, I use the cheap LG (green reflector) LED panels for veg, one of the "450w" actual 300w with both switches on, 200w which is what I run them at with the veg switch on and reds off through most of veg. They each cover a 2x4 veg area well, so about 25w/sq. ft. I only turn the reds on for about the last 2 weeks to transition them for flowering. Then they go into the CMH room to flower under the 3100k Elite Agro's. They seem to like the spectrum change, when they go under the CMH they explode into flower mode quick.

But if I were running only one room (to veg & flower) I'd run only the LEC's using the 4200k Elite Agro's for veg @26-30" which would give me16-20 sq. ft. coverage from one unit, then switch the bulb to 3100k for flowering.

If one were to invest the money into quality (not ebay) leds, veg would be the place to do it. The light is on for much longer.

bicit said:

cobs alone excel at doing just that. They really are marvelous little units. They're expensive, but the results from many of the members here is undeniable. Greengenes run with gorilla glue looks out of this world.Then again groerr is doing wonderful with his LEC as well. SO?

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I think it's a little hypocrite to pretend my reference frame is limited to what people pretend I know and have done and seen in the past decades, yet refer me to gg's grows again or this subforum at RIU... Anyway, have you seen what gorilla glue looks like under HPS? See the monthly contest at the farm... or the frostiest bud thread at riu. It's genetics... It does look attractive and gg did a great job, but, some frosty well grown GG doesn't somehow blind me when making comparisons. If it worked like that we'd all be growing T5 like @RM3.

The buds/colas look great but seem rather small (calyx count) at the top which means the bottom isn't thicker either. If he would have said those were grown under 400w hps or T5 I would have believed it too. You compare to one of the best LED growers you've seen so it seems only fair that I compare to the best hps growers. Others go as far as to think they know where my knowledge and experience ends yet flat out think the reality is limited to what they have or have never seen... too stupid.

No, plants do not just care about photons only. It (an optimal light recipe based) differs a lot per species and type of plant and even amongst cannabis strains. The possibilities of LED go far beyond trying to beat HPS efficiency, which has always been inevitable. The goal of professionals is to replace HPS while maintaining the same quality and yield, and where possible improve both (the promise of led right). That requires considering many additional factors and goes a lot further than ppf and using white cobs. Stop making me promote led.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photomorphogenesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photobiology

bicit said:

I can't run a bare bulb vert setup, and high quality HID reflectors are expensive. The price for me to build a 300w LED unit is only a tad more than the price of a quality 315w setup. $450 for an LED or $420 for the HID, but there are no reoccurring costs(lamp replacement) with the LED unit. So It's a no brainer(in my situation)

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Weird to see a LED user argue that LED would be a better choice because a HID reflector is so expensive. The selection of reflectors I can choose from is (or was...) perhaps a little larger than yours but that comparison seems highly biased again.

I can buy almost 2x a 315w set for that $420 and while they may not live up to your standards of a high quality reflector, that's two of them, compared to the 300watt LED unit... While many LED growers will be replacing more expensive cobs and drivers with more efficient ones to beat those 2 CMH before the bulbs are up for replacement. Or obviously just get 1x cmh and have plenty left to replace bulbs for years... I don't care about the cost 'that' much, but your argument is invalid.

As gg said, they should cost about the same. Yes... but let's not do that by going for the most expensive version of the HID.