Joined/spliced/grafted plants joining root systems

WeedFreak78 said:

WHAT?? Either it's going to take or it's not..you can't have a graft fuse to the base plant but not take nutrients from it. The callus is the fusing of the two plants.. Your observation is akin to saying a hand transplant doesn't take advantage of the host bodies circulatory system..

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dopeweed said:

Sorry I thought you said "Just having branches heal together is not going to have them all benefit from each others' root systems."

Im saying I can only assume that two branches that heal, fuse, join, would surely take advantage of each others' roots'. Confused myself tbh but I think we think the same thing

-dopeweed

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The graft won't take just because you have two open cuts held together. That's why you want the scion and the rootstock to be roughly the same diameter in that kind of grafting. The vascular system has to be able to line up. THe plant doesn't just have nutrients flowing freely all around it. It has to be able to connect both vascular systems for the graft to take.

Are you sure the cuts cant fuse without the vascular systems fusing? Just the green outer parts? I've never tried, since there would be very limited applications for that, with a decent benefit:work ratio.

[QUOTE="EverythingsHazy, post: 11400027, member: 572575"........That's why you want the scion and the rootstock to be roughly the same diameter in that kind of grafting. The vascular system has to be able to line up. THe plant doesn't just have nutrients flowing freely all around it. It has to be able to connect both vascular systems for the graft to take.[/QUOTE]

Interesting stuff, thanks for the info. So if I take a branch from the scion, join it at a node at the base of another plant (same genetics) the fusing process MIGHT allow nutrients to be shared if done correctly, I guess the point here is regardless of if or what can be done...how is the only thing left to figure out and there is more than enough info on that. I guess trial and error is the only true test and a lot of hit and miss might be coming my way!



-dopeweed

dopeweed said:

Interesting stuff, thanks for the info. So if I take a branch from the scion, join it at a node at the base of another plant (same genetics) the fusing process MIGHT allow nutrients to be shared if done correctly, I guess the point here is regardless of if or what can be done...how is the only thing left to figure out and there is more than enough info on that. I guess trial and error is the only true test and a lot of hit and miss might be coming my way!

-dopeweed

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No problem, and I think they should have some sort of connection. I'm very curious to see how much benefit could come through one stem.

When you are trying to do the grafts, make sure you keep them from drying out. Saran wrap is great for support, protection, and keeping the wounds moist so they don't seal up before fusing. Any movement, or drying out of the wounds will be detrimental to the grafting process and may easily ruin it altogether.

Whatever grafting method you choose, you must match the cambium of both. The more, the better your chance of success.

Having said that, grafting of annuals like cannabis is a questionable practice.

Here's a T bud graft wrapped with Parafilm.



UB

Sorry, i had to edit what I said...
To answer the OP original question... I personally say its a waste of time. Trying to fuse all of those 26 plants together properly would take months I'd imagine, and then to veg them all out long enough to take clones from it and then what? You'd be better off fighting the original problem you hd.. was it bugs? Prevent that and you're good.

But really you are the one investing the time so you ultimately decide how wasteful it would be.

Well in theory if a certain strain of cannabis that says has a trait of cold hardiness, or growing compact, bushy, tall, resistance to disease, things like that. You could use that plant as a root stock, and those attributes should be passed on the the graft if it take. For example

Plant 1 Very resistant to disease, drought, grows very densely, but produces ok bud, you would use this as the root stock
Plant 2 very dank buds, but tends to grow very scraggly, this would be your scion

in theory by doing a modified splice graft, kind of like the ones they do for spruces today, you would end up with a plant that grows very dense and compact, and produces dank buds, but is also very resilient. I mean the apples you buy at the store today came most likely from a grafted apple tree. But this would be something that would only be cost effective on a large scale, on a personal scale it would be a novelty unless you revegged the plant after every harvest which would probably stress it to much anyways. It becomes more about saying I have a cannabis plant that grows 20 different strains, which actually I could see a market for, medical users, buy a grafted clone with a few different strains for their condition or something like they. You can by 5 fruit, fruit trees today why not cannabis tomorrow

rolledupdriver said:

You could use that plant as a root stock, and those attributes should be passed on the the graft if it take.

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The graft DOES NOT take on any properties of the root stock. If that was the case, those 5 fruit trees you mentioned would eventually have a single homogenized type of fruit growing on it rather than 5 totally different types of fruit. The rootstock is only a means of nutrient and water transfer, the attributes you mentioned are based on genetics which can only be passed on from one plant t the next through breeding.

WeedFreak78 said:

The graft DOES NOT take on any properties of the root stock. If that was the case, those 5 fruit trees you mentioned would eventually have a single homogenized type of fruit growing on it rather than 5 totally different types of fruit. The rootstock is only a means of nutrient and water transfer, the attributes you mentioned are based on genetics which can only be passed on from one plant t the next through breeding.

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I feel the same mainly because you guys are dealing with an annual. BUT, rootstocks on perennials will impart certain permanent phenotype changes to the scion grafted to it. For instance most apples and other pome fruits are placed on dwarfing rootstocks. https://extension.unh.edu/resources/files/Resource000583_Rep605.pdf I grafted citrus on Poncirus trifoliata "Flying Dragon" which will and has dwarfed my citrus trees, the scion, by 60%. It imparts a great degree of cold hardiness. I have my grapes on a special rootstock that loves our limestone based soil such that micro deficiencies is rarely a problem. It also promotes late budbreak which just might get past a blossom busting late frost. It induces vigor......you get the picture......

Regarding the example of the 5, I am currently trying to make a very high quality avocado cocktail tree. I started with West Indies rootstock called Waldin because it can take hard water like my well water. I then put world class "gourmet" scions on it of a different genotype (pure Guatemalan and Guatemalan/Mexican hybrid) and am anxiously waiting to see if I got any takes. If I get the 3 takes, each one of those avocado varieties will have their same original characteristics regarding fruit quality, size, etc.

Uncle Ben said:

I feel the same mainly because you guys are dealing with an annual. BUT, rootstocks on perennials will impart certain permanent phenotype changes to the scion grafted to it. For instance most apples and other pome fruits are placed on dwarfing rootstocks. https://extension.unh.edu/resources/files/Resource000583_Rep605.pdf I grafted citrus on Poncirus trifoliata "Flying Dragon" which will and has dwarfed my citrus trees, the scion, by 60%. It imparts a great degree of cold hardiness. I have my grapes on a special rootstock that loves our limestone based soil such that micro deficiencies is rarely a problem. It also promotes late budbreak which just might get past a blossom busting late frost. It induces vigor......you get the picture......

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Interesting...I never though about the rootstock being able to handle nutrient uptake better because it's acclimated or evolved in that environment. You're a damn wealth of knowledge..you ever take on apprentices?

I've wanted some apple trees for a few years..some of those Bud9's would be perfect..

Uncle Ben said:

Regarding the example of the 5, I am currently trying to make a very high quality avocado cocktail tree. I started with West Indies rootstock called Waldin because it can take hard water like my well water. I then put world class "gourmet" scions on it of a different genotype (pure Guatemalan and Guatemalan/Mexican hybrid) and am anxiously waiting to see if I got any takes. If I get the 3 takes, each one of those avocado varieties will have their same original characteristics regarding fruit quality, size, etc.

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off topic..how long does it take for a avocado tree to produce fruit from seed? We've had one for about 5 yrs in a ~20ga pot inside..mainly for decoration..just curious if it will ever put out..

WeedFreak78 said:

off topic..how long does it take for a avocado tree to produce fruit from seed? We've had one for about 5 yrs in a ~20ga pot inside..mainly for decoration..just curious if it will ever put out..

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You're wasting your time. That seedling may never produce and if it does there's no guaranty on the quality of the fruit. If you're really serious about putting in a home grown avocado of very high quality tell me where you live or the USDA zone, outdoors or in a sun room, etc. Studied this stuff for decades. I have a Joey that's going outdoors soon, said to take temps down into single digits once mature & having good trunk girth. Rest are in a large greenhouse.

I didn't think it would, it's something my mother started on a whim and I've just been keeping going. I'm zone 6a, it's in an enclosed sun porch. I've mainly been focusing on trying to get some fig trees established outside the last couple years ( Chicago hardy and brown turkey) this winter has been the worst in the last 5yrs. Waiting to see if they survived, I never got a chance to cover them before we got nailed with a couple 12"+ snow storms. I either need a greenhouse , or get serious about moving to warmer climates..

Dwarfs that you can successfully fruit in a container are Wurtz aka Little Cado and Holiday. I'm in zone 8b and raise a lot of tropical trees in a greenhouse with a 18' peak. You're too cold even for the very hardy Mexican race avocados to go outdoors. For the best quality and best prices buy from these folks. Been doing it for years and will continue until I start getting really good production from my greenhouse. https://www.morrocreekranch.com/item.php?item_id=219 Some of these online vendors want up to $7.53 each (shipped). That's for Reed which is one of the best (and one I grow).

Regarding figs, unless you keep them picked up from the ground they will become a slimey mess.

WeedFreak78 said:

Interesting...I never though about the rootstock being able to handle nutrient uptake better because it's acclimated or evolved in that environment. You're a damn wealth of knowledge..you ever take on apprentices?

I've wanted some apple trees for a few years..some of those Bud9's would be perfect..

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Yeah, most tree's you buy at garden center's or home depot, many of them are grafted onto a dwarf root stock, very handy when you dont have the space, or dont want to go tree climbing for your fruit. Uncle ben gave the best explanation. If you want to check out an insane example of grafting fruit trees check out this guy: http://www.treeof40fruit.com/ currently the tree is still juvenile, but the idea of it insane lol.

Unbelievable! I've seen pix of folks doing the same thing - making a cocktail tree of perhaps 30 different apples or pecans or avocados. Kicker is some will be dominant and some recessive but one things for sure, you'll have fruit all the time during the growing season!

I know someone that grafts 12 strains per plant for mothers only. The thing you have to remember is different strains can have different nutrient needs. So you have to group them accordingly. It is a good way to have a variety without going over any limits

Rootstock can effect phenotype expression through hormone and nutrient differences. Genetic code is completely unchanged. You could have a mother plant with 5 strains on it. If you flower them you may see phenotype variation between original rootstock. Yet clones taken from growth tip would be exactly the same genetically as the first time they were cut from the original plant.