January 6th, 2021

Fogdog said:

I simply cannot understand why anybody voted for Trump, which makes 74 or 75 million that are alien to me.

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Perception. What you see is not what they see. Just as you cannot understand them, they can’t understand you and you’re just as alien to them. The same can be said about Christians, how is it possible they subscribe to such an obvious documented evil religion. That’s not how they see it, they’ve been brainwashed it’s the ultimate good. Humans are very very fallible, and americans are no exceptions.

Even without Russia’s efforts people are perfectly capable of making themselves and each other believe in falsehoods. Just look at the flat-eartheners. Weird as fuck they believe that, but what’s even weirder is that it isn’t just the very stupid/crazy people who do. Nobody is immune to believing “alternative facts”. When your democracy is sick, can democracy be the cure? If Trump were to join the 2024 race and win most EC votes, would you not want to grab any undemocratic straw to prevent it? That’s how magats feel too. Unless the system is fixed (EC, but also senate seats) it’s not unlikely there will be more Trumps in the future. Tyranny by the majority is a classic concern with democracy, but when a minority can choose the president it’s just asking for problems.

You already did what you had to do, vote. Biden won, Biden will be president. I’m sure it’s been a traumatic 4 years, but it is over. There’s no need to stop them, you already did that. For now anyway.

Fogdog said:

Is this an invitation?

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Actually my wife and myself haven't been to one in twenty or so years. I don't recommend it.

Sativied said:

Perception. What you see is not what they see. Just as you cannot understand them, they can’t understand you and you’re just as alien to them

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as much as i don't want to say it, but i really think there is a difference in intelligence b/t conservatives and liberals. or at least some difference in how our brains function and/or process data.

like how do you explain why there are 10s if not hundreds of conservative talk shows. tv shows, etc?? and why most liberals seem to lean away from organized religion compared to conservatives??

rkymtnman said:

as much as i don't want to say it, but i really think there is a difference in intelligence b/t conservatives and liberals. or at least some difference in how our brains function and/or process data.

like how do you explain why there are 10s if not hundreds of conservative talk shows. tv shows, etc?? and why most liberals seem to lean away from organized religion compared to conservatives??

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They've done studies and there is a correlation between IQ and religion. The higher your IQ the less likely you are to buy into organized religion but not spirituality, you can't fix stupid.

...except for some, Government IS a religion.

rkymtnman said:

as much as i don't want to say it, but i really think there is a difference in intelligence b/t conservatives and liberals. or at least some difference in how our brains function and/or process data.

like how do you explain why there are 10s if not hundreds of conservative talk shows. tv shows, etc?? and why most liberals seem to lean away from organized religion compared to conservatives??

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I think it is because of the political agenda that backs the Republicans in DC, and have enough money to buy up the stations and funnel the information they want towards one political party. There has not been as organized of a propaganda effort on behalf of the Democrats, no matter how much projection is made by the people selling the Right wing agenda.

Sinclair Broadcasting, Fox, Koch's, etc.

captainmorgan said:

They've done studies and there is a correlation between IQ and religion. The higher your IQ the less likely you are to buy into organized religion but not spirituality, you can't fix stupid.

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There is a difference, you can be spiritual without being religious. I understand the source of this spiritual feeling of being connected to something larger than ourselves. At it's most intense it is a profound feeling of being connected to the entire universe, or God if you will. It is a manifestation of being in compassion mode (maximum social/emotional mode), it is and instinctively driven feeling in humans.

We have this spiritual feeling inside us and from time to time we spontaneously trigger these spiritual feelings, the interpretation of them is delusion driven for many and in accordance to our conditioned biases. The interpretation might be delusional, but the basic feeling exists, for an evolutionary purpose and enhance our abilities when we act as part of a group.

This feeling of being connected to something larger is very powerful for many and life changing for some. If we train we can live in this mode most of the time, in the business it's called compassion and having the wind of compassion at your back while acting for others with clear intentions is empowering. I am an atheist who believes in natural explanations for phenomena and causality, but I'm also "spiritual", with out buying into fruit cake explanations for the feeling most feel from time to time. Human social evolution provides all the explanation I need for feeling connected to and part of the universe.

Look at my quote, I said "but not spirituality".

Sativied said:

Perception. What you see is not what they see. Just as you cannot understand them, they can’t understand you and you’re just as alien to them. The same can be said about Christians, how is it possible they subscribe to such an obvious documented evil religion. That’s not how they see it, they’ve been brainwashed it’s the ultimate good. Humans are very very fallible, and americans are no exceptions.

Even without Russia’s efforts people are perfectly capable of making themselves and each other believe in falsehoods. Just look at the flat-eartheners. Weird as fuck they believe that, but what’s even weirder is that it isn’t just the very stupid/crazy people who do. Nobody is immune to believing “alternative facts”. When your democracy is sick, can democracy be the cure? If Trump were to join the 2024 race and win most EC votes, would you not want to grab any undemocratic straw to prevent it? That’s how magats feel too. Unless the system is fixed (EC, but also senate seats) it’s not unlikely there will be more Trumps in the future. Tyranny by the majority is a classic concern with democracy, but when a minority can choose the president it’s just asking for problems.

You already did what you had to do, vote. Biden won, Biden will be president. I’m sure it’s been a traumatic 4 years, but it is over. There’s no need to stop them, you already did that. For now anyway.

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Difference is perception isn't very helpful when one group takes its information from Russian propaganda, fake news stations and the right wing radio echo chamber while the other side, from facts based news reporting. Yeah, what you said is true, not denying that.

We have a ton of structural problems in our democratic system. The US Constitution was written with mechanisms for change built into it. The problem is, slightly less than half of the people in the US are hooked on right wing propaganda, so this is not the time to open up our Constitution and make some changes. I can understand why Republicans would resist those changes, what with "perception" and all that. I certainly will resist any attempt by the Retrumplican Party to mold the Constitution into it's own image.

What I don't comprehend is so many people who reject facts in favor of fake. I say this objectively. There is no evidence of fraud, yet the fake newsies swallow that baseless story, hook, line and sinker. I comprehend that so many more people are lost in fake news than I previously thought. I don't comprehend how or why. Why do two people draw such different conclusions with the same information available? I think this is more about human behavior and psychology than something to understand from objective facts alone.

I think you end your post in the same place I do. Nothing can be done but resist and wait them out. I was planning on doing this if Trump won. I'm disappointed that I still have to do this even though he lost. So, back to my original conclusion. This decade is going to suck.

Fogdog said:

Difference is perception isn't very helpful when one group takes its information from Russian propaganda, fake news stations and the right wing radio echo chamber while the other side, from facts based news reporting. Yeah, what you said is true, not denying that.

We have a ton of structural problems in our democratic system. The US Constitution was written with mechanisms for change built into it. The problem is, slightly less than half of the people in the US are hooked on right wing propaganda, so this is not the time to open up our Constitution and make some changes. I can understand why Republicans would resist those changes, what with "perception" and all that. I certainly will resist any attempt by the Retrumplican Party to mold the Constitution into it's own image.

What I don't comprehend is so many people who reject facts in favor of fake. I say this objectively. There is no evidence of fraud, yet the fake newsies swallow that baseless story, hook, line and sinker. I comprehend that so many more people are lost in fake news than I previously thought. I don't comprehend how or why. Why do two people draw such different conclusions with the same information available? I think this is more about human behavior and psychology than something to understand from objective facts alone.

I think you end your post in the same place I do. Nothing can be done but resist and wait them out. I was planning on doing this if Trump won. I'm disappointed that I still have to do this even though he lost. So, back to my original conclusion. This decade is going to suck.

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Agreed on the next decade sucking.

I think a lot of planning had to have went into how to form these information bubbles that started back in the 80's. Hate radio buying up all the channels on AM. Political tv 'news-esque' programming in the 90's with Fox being on non cable TV so rural Americans got it. Sinclair buying up all the local stations that they could.

https://dailyillini.com/opinions/2018/04/05/editorial-this-is-extremely-dangerous-to-our-democracy/


https://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/06/trump-fcc-sinclair-broadcast-expansion-241337

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The dismantling of local newspapers.

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And post 9/11 birth of the 24 hour political news cycle (and post pandemic 7 days a week) really being the only mostly non-repeated new content.

Then the internet brought about the right wing forums, evangelicals and racists really saw the potential of trolling for cultists early on. Rise of the conspiracy theories tied all the crazy into politics with the Republicans willingness to stay on message. Using propaganda tabloid websites that masquerade as news (OANN, Breightbart, the Hill, the Nation, New York Post, RT, on and on) and fake local news websites, to give their crazy shit a platform to build false legitimacy. Click bots to push the online propaganda up into the feedback loop of 'hot' stories getting airtime on Fox/Sinclair.

All this set up just in time for the Russian military to hijack all the Republicans hard work in order to fuck up our nation with giving us Trump (and UK with Brexit, France with the Yellow vest stuff (among other attacks), on and on, any democracy is under assault from the militarized trolling).





Yeah. It is going to be crap time until this all gets dealt with.

captainmorgan said:

Look at my quote, I said "but not spirituality".

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I was explaining why everybody has these feelings, the stupid think it's Jesus, others look for a more rational explanation and some actually find it. Until recently most people looked to supernatural explanations for this phenomena, usually tied to their belief system.

hanimmal said:

Agreed on the next decade sucking.

I think a lot of planning had to have went into how to form these information bubbles that started back in the 80's. Hate radio buying up all the channels on AM. Political tv 'news-esque' programming in the 90's with Fox being on non cable TV so rural Americans got it. Sinclair buying up all the local stations that they could.

The dismantling of local newspapers.


And post 9/11 birth of the 24 hour political news cycle (and post pandemic 7 days a week) really being the only mostly non-repeated new content.

Then the internet brought about the right wing forums, evangelicals and racists really saw the potential of trolling for cultists early on. Rise of the conspiracy theories tied all the crazy into politics with the Republicans willingness to stay on message. Using propaganda tabloid websites that masquerade as news (OANN, Breightbart, the Hill, the Nation, New York Post, RT, on and on) and fake local news websites, to give their crazy shit a platform to build false legitimacy. Click bots to push the online propaganda up into the feedback loop of 'hot' stories getting airtime on Fox/Sinclair.

All this set up just in time for the Russian military to hijack all the Republicans hard work in order to fuck up our nation with giving us Trump (and UK with Brexit, France with the Yellow vest stuff (among other attacks), on and on, any democracy is under assault from the militarized trolling).





Yeah. It is going to be crap time until this all gets dealt with.

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Just what the antitrust laws were created for, all ya gotta do is enforce them. Funny thing about corporations being persons under the law, ya can draw and quarter them with anti trust. Also the administration controls the FCC and anybody broadcasting covid disinformation should be removed from the air as a public health menace.

Free basic cable TV as part of high speed internet to rural America, let the republicans oppose that part of the infrastructure program, provided you get one. If there are enough suckers in Georgia you won't get change, or even judges for 4 years.

DIY-HP-LED said:

Just what the antitrust laws were created for, all ya gotta do is enforce them. Funny thing about corporations being persons under the law, ya can draw and quarter them with anti trust. Also the administration controls the FCC and anybody broadcasting covid disinformation should be removed from the air as a public health menace.

Free basic cable TV as part of high speed internet to rural America, let the republicans oppose that part of the infrastructure program, provided you get one. If there are enough suckers in Georgia you won't get change, or even judges for 4 years.

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In 2 years there is a second shot at Democratic controlled senate.

hanimmal said:

In 2 years there is a second shot at Democratic controlled senate.

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There is lots the democrats can do to make them look bad, but in a way they are like Trump, something else empowers them, something that makes people overlook faults and corruption. Do most of the people who are voting for those corrupt republican clowns in Georgia, care that they have and will continue to screw them? Look at the $2000 in economic aid Mitch killed in the senate, think a lot of people who will vote for the republican candidates need that money? Think any of them will go under economically, lose their businesses, jobs and homes because of it? Or is it, "They is taking over!" man the ramparts and sacrifices have to be made for the white tribe? They don't think like Americans, they think like a tribe at war with others in America. Most are just as poor and fucked over by the rich as those on the "left" and could use a little socialist healthcare right now. If they don't like socialism, perhaps they think everybody should pay for the vaccine? No cash no vaccine?

Socialism is a dog whistle word like "left", it is completely devoid of any meaning, except that it describes those they don't like, black, brown and their liberal white allies. Both are sweeping generalizations and thus easier for simple minds to grasp, it's easy to hate a group for no reason, harder when it comes to individuals. Those who don't like black people seldom say it to their faces and often have difficulty in one on one situations where they are dealing with an individual. Even though they smile and say the right things, their discomfort and conflict are still perceived by others, most black people in America have a lifetime of experience dealing with such things.

rkymtnman said:

and how to we make voting more like Uruguay where 90%+ vote.

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We make it a law. Punishable with fines and jail. Why not? I think Trump would endorse that! He would even choose the party for you.

Don't Bogart said:

We make it a law. Punishable with fines and jail. Why not? I think Trump would endorse that! He would even choose the party for you.

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Pick up your $100 tax rebate check when you vote, or get it in the mail when ya mail your ballot in. Carrots can be used as well as sticks, Australia gives ya a fine for not voting. America compelled military service until recently FFS so a fine if ya don't vote and a check if ya do, carrot and stick. Those who don't want to vote can help pay the bonus to those who do, like military service, it's a requirement of citizenship. Also just vote for major office holders, not dog catchers, sheriffs, prosecutors and judges, keep the ballot paper, simple and relevant.

DIY-HP-LED said:

There is lots the democrats can do to make them look bad, but in a way they are like Trump, something else empowers them, something that makes people overlook faults and corruption. Do most of the people who are voting for those corrupt republican clowns in Georgia, care that they have and will continue to screw them? Look at the $2000 in economic aid Mitch killed in the senate, think a lot of people who will vote for the republican candidates need that money? Think any of them will go under economically, lose their businesses, jobs and homes because of it? Or is it, "They is taking over!" man the ramparts and sacrifices have to be made for the white tribe? They don't think like Americans, they think like a tribe at war with others in America. Most are just as poor and fucked over by the rich as those on the "left" and could use a little socialist healthcare right now. If they don't like socialism, perhaps they think everybody should pay for the vaccine? No cash no vaccine?

Socialism is a dog whistle word like "left", it is completely devoid of any meaning, except that it describes those they don't like, black, brown and their liberal white allies. Both are sweeping generalizations and thus easier for simple minds to grasp, it's easy to hate a group for no reason, harder when it comes to individuals. Those who don't like black people seldom say it to their faces and often have difficulty in one on one situations where they are dealing with an individual. Even though they smile and say the right things, their discomfort and conflict are still perceived by others, most black people in America have a lifetime of experience dealing with such things.

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Unless you actually believe all the crazy shit that they have been trolled with for decades about the 'Democrats'.

Pick your crazy plot, from baby blood drinkers, to 5g implants form lizard people who secretly rule the world, once you believe that level of nuts voting for a dictator in such a scary world may just bring a little comfort. Especially if you never actually see any of the negative information about Trump in the circle jerk right wing media bubble that is not just dismissed as 'fake news'.

hanimmal said:

Unless you actually believe all the crazy shit that they have been trolled with for decades about the 'Democrats'.

Pick your crazy plot, from baby blood drinkers, to 5g implants form lizard people who secretly rule the world, once you believe that level of nuts voting for a dictator in such a scary world may just bring a little comfort. Especially if you never actually see any of the negative information about Trump in the circle jerk right wing media bubble that is not just dismissed as 'fake news'.

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That just supports pre existing biases, those with them search out the information sources that confirm them, we all do to an extent. We don't watch or read much flat earth bullshit, we tend to skip over it like foxnews. Once they have their hooks in them they can lead them where they want, even to radicalization, but they have to be careful too, as Foxnews recently found out with calling the election. Once fox news hit them between the eyes with but a small dose reality, they ran to OAN and newsmax in droves.

I think it might be more useful to look at Trumpers in a more nuanced way and grade their susceptibly to delusion, on say a scale of 1 to 10. Put the flat earthers and born yesterday true believer "Christians" at a 10 on the scale and an atheist Trumper as a 1. The atheist is probably more motivated by racism and tribalism than the completely delusional born yesterday wing nut. Indeed the greedy bastard might be motivated by greed alone, but theirs usually some "I'm better than you and more deserving" mixed in with racism and general contempt for others. Bear in mind that everybody practices delusion, me you and everybody else, it goes with making an internal mental model of our environment. The scientific method and all it's extensions are about discovering the true nature of reality by removing our biases, some areas of science need to be more rigorous than others in this regard.

Fogdog said:

What I don't comprehend is so many people who reject facts in favor of fake. I say this objectively. There is no evidence of fraud, yet the fake newsies swallow that baseless story, hook, line and sinker. I comprehend that so many more people are lost in fake news than I previously thought. I don't comprehend how or why. Why do two people draw such different conclusions with the same information available? I think this is more about human behavior and psychology than something to understand from objective facts alone.

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We got this tv show called MindF*ck, in which an illusionist tricks random people in the streets by abusing the psychology of the fallible human brain and it’s an eye opener. For example, he shows two photos with two rather different people and asks someone to choose one for a date. Then he sneakily swaps the two photos and shows the wrong photo and asks why the person chose that one. Everyone ends up defending their choice (which wasn’t actually their pick), nobody notices they‘ve been swapped. The target ends up explaining why she likes bald men even when she picked the one with hair. Or why they like people with glasses or red hair, while they actually picked a photo of someone without glasses or brown hair.

The human brain is programmed to confirm a previous choice, it even adjusts the memory of making that choice. This is on top of most people not wanting to be wrong (any forum member recognizes that). In their mind, they are not wrong. Any recollection is edited and cut to confirm their choice and beliefs. When you remember something, you don’t remember the actual event but remember what you remembered the last time you remembered it. And every time you do, that memory changes slightly towards what you want or fear it to be. For magats to admit Trump is full of shit, their brain has to admit that same brain didn’t function as well as they thought for 4 years. Anyone left in their social network, or cult, would have to be wrong.

Fogdog said:

Difference is perception isn't very helpful when one group takes its information from Russian propaganda, fake news stations and the right wing radio echo chamber while the other side, from facts based news reporting

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Even without all those external factors (and flat out shameless liars on Trump’s side) people can easily fool themselves and each other. Add Russia‘s effort and it only gets far worse. Those are catalysts that led to that difference in perception, which is now a problem on its own. I think it’s important to learn which desires and emotions make them so vulnerable to believing falsehoods. They already made up their mind about Trump, you cannot change that. To them you are anything but objective. (“you just hate Trump”). They see you similarly as you see them. Recognizing that fact is a step towards of the solution.

Fogdog said:

Why do two people draw such different conclusions with the same information available?

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Bias. They too are certain they are being objectively right and everything they see and read confirms it. Not just russian propaganda or fox news, they’d actually draw similar conclusions from CNN, cherry-picking what confirms their beliefs. They also don’t understand how you cannot see their truth. Is it really that crazy for a magat to think the left would do anything to prevent another Trump term?

What Russia is exporting is what they’ve been doing to their own for decades. Spreading so many different versions of the ‘truth’, including the very opposite, so people can no longer tell which version is the actual truth. That’s unfortunately not something that works only on low IQ individuals. Americans were almost in the same boat the Russians are in. Heck, if Trump was just half as smart as Putin is...

ugh... I ramble when I smoke haze...

Fogdog said:

I'm disappointed that I still have to do this even though he lost

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Do you really have to though? What happens when you don’t, and just enjoy and celebrate the fact Biden beat Trump and will be president? I just hate to see Trump have this hold over people on the left while he soon will be stripped of his powers. The craziest magats are also the loudest, a non-silent minority, and with Biden being centrist I’m positive about the future. As someone pointed out already, there are many republicans who voted for the republican candidate regardless of it being Trump. People who barely watch news and aren’t even active online. People who would have seen Trump for what he is if he were a democrat. Trump doesn’t have the majority on his side, he doesn’t have the army on his side, he doesn’t have most governors on his side, no decent allies in the world on his side, not even all gop senators, and as I expected, by far most judges are independent regardless of who put them in that position. It’s over, you can stand down for now, enjoy life, have a great 2021!

DIY-HP-LED said:

That just supports pre existing biases, those with them search out the information sources that confirm them, we all do to an extent.

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I don't think we can necessarily say this is the case.

I can imagine the ability to create new bias through repetitive propaganda spam reenforced with real time trolls pushing the same bullshit over and over, then attacking them for any weakness in their stance creating a second guess to the actual facts. Then over a few more years those bubbles start to harden and they get trained all the time to combat rationality and non-populous messaging.

DIY-HP-LED said:

We don't watch or read much flat earth bullshit, we tend to skip over it like foxnews. Once they have their hooks in them they can lead them where they want, even to radicalization, but they have to be careful too, as Foxnews recently found out with calling the election. Once fox news hit them between the eyes with but a small dose reality, they ran to OAN and newsmax in droves.

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Who is 'we' and also don't just think about the 'flat earth' stuff. Think about people that won't believe that but will believe that the world has to be less than 5000 years old and dedicate entire theme parks to what they believe is the only possibility. Or on the opposite (but ultimately similar in a lot of ways) extreme, people who think that the humanity is going to kill itself in the next couple decades because of global climate change.

People over time are highly programmable. And with every one who goes online getting attacked all the time by this militarized propaganda trolling attack, it is easy to then sort people of influence (military members who get a lot of respect in their families, police and firefighters/first responders, cannabis growers, basically anyone that is a influencer in their social circle) and make sure that they are isolated away from the people who are in different bubbles.

Unfortunately just like influencers would be easy to have some data analysis program sorted out of the data, so would the most vulnerable among us. Isolating these people and pushing them to action is why we need to reach herd immunity to this attack as soon as possible.

DIY-HP-LED said:

I think it might be more useful to look at Trumpers in a more nuanced way and grade their susceptibly to delusion, on say a scale of 1 to 10. Put the flat earthers and born yesterday true believer "Christians" at a 10 on the scale and an atheist Trumper as a 1. The atheist is probably more motivated by racism and tribalism than the completely delusional born yesterday wing nut. Indeed the greedy bastard might be motivated by greed alone, but theirs usually some "I'm better than you and more deserving" mixed in with racism and general contempt for others. Bear in mind that everybody practices delusion, me you and everybody else, it goes with making an internal mental model of our environment.

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I am sure that is similar to what is happening already. And once they are all nicely sorted, real time trolling is a download of spyware away across every site that person happens to visit. Nudging them into whatever they need.

DIY-HP-LED said:

The scientific method and all it's extensions are about discovering the true nature of reality by removing our biases, some areas of science need to be more rigorous than others in this regard.

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I have no idea what this means. Science is replicable. I think you may be confusing bullshit youtube videos for science. To actually understand the science means you had to have earned that knowledge, it doesn't just happen by osmosis.