Jacks (JR Peters) nutrients

Skybound420

Well-Known Member
When I mix my concentrates, I add 189.27 grams to make a half gallon. This makes it easy to retrieve those very small weights from things like STEM....0.041, by first shifting the decimal right to account for the 1g/10ml, then again b/c I make 10 gallon weekly reservoirs. IDK if it would be helpful to mix the same 189.27 grams of FeDPTA into RO, then take a small bit of that and squirt it into a full half gallon of STEM, but my scale only graduates to 0.00, but I have a 1lb jar of the stuff and wouldn't mind wasting a lot if it helps me dial in the STEM better. As is now, it'll take me about 2 years to get through a half gallon of STEM only using about 4ml on 10 gallons per site per week.
 

Skybound420

Well-Known Member
@Skybound420 looks like you'll need .015 grams per gallon of iron to get you to 2ppm Fe. .041 of STEM to .015 Iron is a ratio of 41:15 which is equal to 732:268, Put those in a decimal and multiply the values/percentages of Iron, so for STEM.724x7.5%=5.49% and for Iron .268x10%=2.68%, add the two together to get your new iron value 5.49%+2.68%=8.17%. So for every 732 grams of stem you'll add 268 grams of iron and you will use it at a rate of .056 grams per gallon.
41:15 makes sense, but how were you able to convert that to 732:268?

Also, what would be the new value for iron in STEM after the augmentation as I need to edit the percentage in the STEM substance in HB?
 

Skybound420

Well-Known Member
Actually you won't be able to mix that with stem, if you're set on mixing the dry together into one you'll need to use Iron Sulfate and we'll have to rework the numbers because it's around 20% iron
Ah damn. I'll have to order some. For what reason aren't we able to merge the DPTA with STEM? FWIW, I'd actually rather more sulfur, but I already have the DPTA, lol
 

Skybound420

Well-Known Member
You're welcome

I'm not sure the actual reason but I do know when you make your own fertilizer mix you can't add the DPTA with sulfates. I have to add my iron into the stock that has the calcium nitrate.
I think I read something similar when I found a recipe for an A-B mix somewhere. I copied the contents per part, but no amounts or a link where I found it;
Part A..............................| Part B
calcium nitrate.................| MKP
iron EDTA........................| magnesium sulphate
1/2 of potassium nitrate...| 1/2 of potassium nitrate
.........................................| copper sulfate
.........................................| zinc sulfate
.........................................| boric acid
.........................................| sodium molybdate
Also, when I looked at the contents of STEM, it uses Iron Sulfate too. I think I absent mindedly bought FeDPTA cuz I think Satori said he uses that, and my studies suggest that DPTA is the chelate that is preferred for our PH range opposed to EDTA as listed above.

I input the numbers you gave me last night and still got not great results. So I began increasing the Fe percentage in STEM until I was able to consistently hit Fe-2 and Mn-1 in my results and 11% Fe is what's needed. I'll order a pound of Iron Sulfate now. Will it matter if I get Heptahydrate instead of Monohydrate? Custom Hydro has both, but they offer 1lb QTYs of Hepta, but only have 25lb bags of Mono which means I'd get killed on shipping. FWIW, I prefer Custom Hydro cuz they ship very discretely.
 

Skybound420

Well-Known Member
I did some more screwing around in Hydro Buddy and I think I can recreate my own Micro mix using the various sulfates, Boric Acid and sodium molybdate. I set Peter's pro to 1 gram per gallon, then dialed in the ideal targets (I believe you shared months ago?) and after it compiled, I deducted those results from the original targets to realize what was missing. I then dropped Peter's pro, and added the 6 trace elements and targeted the micros to what I learned was missing from peters. I had to leave Hydro Buddy set 100 gallons, but it finally resolved with the following weights;

Peter's and Jack's @ 1-gram per Gallon
Iron-----------------0.793 ppm + 1.207
Manganese-------0.132 ppm + 0.868
Boron---------------0.132 ppm + 0.168
Zinc-------------------0.04 ppm + 0.26
Copper---------------0.04 ppm + 0.16
Molybdenum------0.026 ppm + 0.024
The red numbers were used to target ppm for the below substances


Custom Micro Mix === grams per 100 gallons
Iron || Sulfate (Hepta)-----------2.274
Copper Sulfate (penta)---------0.238
Boric Acid--------------------------0.364
Manganese Sulfate (Mono)----1.011
Sodium Molybdate (Di)----------0.023
Zinc Sulfate (Di)-------------------0.297
Total Weight---------------------------4.207 grams makes 100 gallons at targeted ppm
I believe I would be able to work it out from there by adding or decreasing the number of gallons. Does that look about right to you?
 

Skybound420

Well-Known Member

Skybound420

Well-Known Member
I found it;
The most common of these agents is called Ethylendiamintetraacetic Acid (EDTA), a tetraprotic acid which is able to chelate most metals with a particularly high afinity for Fe. However, when you add only chelated iron, the fact that other metals start to compete makes the iron complex destabilize and the chelate is eventually destroyed. However, when we add the chelating agent we can make sure that we add enough to "wrap" Fe and other metals in such a way that the stability of the iron complex is guaranteed.
https://scienceinhydroponics.com/2010/05/preparing-your-own-chelates-improving-your-hydroponic-nutrients.html

I guess I'll experiment with only sulfates for a week or two as I'll need to make another order for 3 additional chelated metals.

Edit - Anyone know if DTPA Iron can be mixed with EDTA Zn, Cu, Mn? I don't recall seeing those chelated with DTPA.
 

Skybound420

Well-Known Member
For the next grower, I looked at the ingredients of GH Flora Micro and they use DTPA and EDTA together in the same solution so that's what I'm going to do. I'm whipping up a custom micro solution now made with only sulfates, that will correct the micro levels of Peter's 5-11-26, I just need to figure out how to adjust them as I targeted 1 gram of 5-11-26, then deducted what's missing to use as targets for the micros, but since my weekly use of 5-11-26 is never incremented in even grams, I would likely get stuck in the math. Maybe I'll just ditch the 5-11-26 all together and just build everything from the ground up? It seems that might be the safest plan. This way My micro dosage would be the same every week for every stage, and everything else would just be augmented as needed.
 

Smerc

Active Member
Maybe I'll just ditch the 5-11-26 all together and just build everything from the ground up? It seems that might be the safest plan. This way My micro dosage would be the same every week for every stage, and everything else would just be augmented as needed.
Would seem easiest to target everything individually from the ground up. In terms of being able to target whatever it is you're trying to achieve in terms of ppm per gallon.

Would get a lot more forum support using 5-11-26 or 5-12-26 as your base since a lot of people use it here and may also want to achieve what it is you're doing while not having to shell out more money on a lot of individual nutes, containers, and just the time it would take to measure all that stuff. Also sourcing all that stuff as well.
 

Skybound420

Well-Known Member
Would seem easiest to target everything individually from the ground up. In terms of being able to target whatever it is you're trying to achieve in terms of ppm per gallon.

Would get a lot more forum support using 5-11-26 or 5-12-26 as your base since a lot of people use it here and may also want to achieve what it is you're doing while not having to shell out more money on a lot of individual nutes, containers, and just the time it would take to measure all that stuff. Also sourcing all that stuff as well.
I've been using both 5-12-26 and 5-11-26, but the micro levels of both are far from ideal for canna, so I queried im4satori as well as nxsov180db and have concluded ideal levels of each micro. My problem came when trying to find a micro blend that would pair up with either of those part A, but nothing came close. I've been using STEM which is a Peter's product, but it too sucks, and just found out that the iron in my concentrate just oxidized. I picked up all new sulfates, but then my research has me wanting to now invest in chelated micros. At least with the sulfate micros, I can mix a new custom blend that will get me to my desired ranges which will buy me a little time to acquire the 3 remaining chelated metals I'll need to mix up a fully chelated micro blend. Another of my shortcomings is that I don't know how to do the math, and solely rely on Hydro Buddy to build my feed charts. So when I mix my custom micro blend, I won't know how to combine the micros into an individual substance to put into Hydro Buddy, and I would need to be able to do that if I were to continue using either the 5-11-26 or 5-12-26. That said, I now intend to mix the custom micro blend, mix it all into a concentrate, then it will be the same dose per each 10 gallon reservoir I make. Then I could just target all the macros and secondaries. At the end, I will have wasted a lot of $$$, but I should have a PERFECT nutrient regimen, and I can share my findings for the next guy to reproduce easily. I already have Iron-DTPA, Sodium Molybdate and Boric Acid, all I need now is Copper-EDTA, Zinc-EDTA and Manganese-EDTA. The rest of the feed can be made with Epsom, MKP, Mag Nit, Cal Nit, Potassium Sulfate and Potassium Silicate.
 

CouchGouch

Well-Known Member
I've been using both 5-12-26 and 5-11-26, but the micro levels of both are far from ideal for canna, so I queried im4satori as well as nxsov180db and have concluded ideal levels of each micro. My problem came when trying to find a micro blend that would pair up with either of those part A, but nothing came close. I've been using STEM which is a Peter's product, but it too sucks, and just found out that the iron in my concentrate just oxidized. I picked up all new sulfates, but then my research has me wanting to now invest in chelated micros. At least with the sulfate micros, I can mix a new custom blend that will get me to my desired ranges which will buy me a little time to acquire the 3 remaining chelated metals I'll need to mix up a fully chelated micro blend. Another of my shortcomings is that I don't know how to do the math, and solely rely on Hydro Buddy to build my feed charts. So when I mix my custom micro blend, I won't know how to combine the micros into an individual substance to put into Hydro Buddy, and I would need to be able to do that if I were to continue using either the 5-11-26 or 5-12-26. That said, I now intend to mix the custom micro blend, mix it all into a concentrate, then it will be the same dose per each 10 gallon reservoir I make. Then I could just target all the macros and secondaries. At the end, I will have wasted a lot of $$$, but I should have a PERFECT nutrient regimen, and I can share my findings for the next guy to reproduce easily. I already have Iron-DTPA, Sodium Molybdate and Boric Acid, all I need now is Copper-EDTA, Zinc-EDTA and Manganese-EDTA. The rest of the feed can be made with Epsom, MKP, Mag Nit, Cal Nit, Potassium Sulfate and Potassium Silicate.
I remember @ttystikk recommending genesis mineral matrix a couple of years ago, is this still a good addition to the 3-2-1? Just back after a long break
 

Skybound420

Well-Known Member
I remember @ttystikk recommending genesis mineral matrix a couple of years ago, is this still a good addition to the 3-2-1? Just back after a long break
A quick search shows that it's a liquid, so for what I'm doing, I won't even input the numbers to see how it returns. One of the points of mixing our own is to avoid buying water off someone as the individual components are much cheaper and little goes a VERY long way, just add RO. That said, when mixing my own micro blend, I can return each to the exact level I desire, and if that turns out to not be ideal, I'll be able to adjust as desired.

Fe - 2ppm
Mn - 1ppm
Zn - 0.3ppm
B - 0.3ppm
Cu - 0.2ppm
Mo - 0.05ppm
 

CouchGouch

Well-Known Member
A quick search shows that it's a liquid, so for what I'm doing, I won't even input the numbers to see how it returns. One of the points of mixing our own is to avoid buying water off someone as the individual components are much cheaper and little goes a VERY long way, just add RO. That said, when mixing my own micro blend, I can return each to the exact level I desire, and if that turns out to not be ideal, I'll be able to adjust as desired.

Fe - 2ppm
Mn - 1ppm
Zn - 0.3ppm
B - 0.3ppm
Cu - 0.2ppm
Mo - 0.05ppm
Yeah I remember looking into that at the time but it seemed a little too complex for me, with different compounds sharing elements or something like that.

I plan to read through the thread again when I get the time.

Hope you share your mix if you nail it!
 

McFrosticles

Well-Known Member
Just got my 25lb hydro delivered, have Epsom and calcium nitrate. I've got 8 plants just under 3 weeks from seed.

Do I need micros at this stage? Currently feeding GH gro 3 micro 2 bloom 1, with cal mag, rhizo, silica e.c. 1

Are the micros necessary?
 

Skybound420

Well-Known Member
Just got my 25lb hydro delivered, have Epsom and calcium nitrate. I've got 8 plants just under 3 weeks from seed.

Do I need micros at this stage? Currently feeding GH gro 3 micro 2 bloom 1, with cal mag, rhizo, silica e.c. 1

Are the micros necessary?
Yes or no. It all depends how anal you want to get. Lots of 321 users say they have issue free grows, yet when I look at their plants, I saw pretty much the same or at least comparable results that I saw from using GH for so many years, plus when I compared them, I was not at all happy what the numbers looked like. Conversely, I've been in pursuit of perfect nutes ever since, and have invested enough to get three 321s, lol. If you want to go nuts like I did, I linked my thread above where I put all the info I've gathered. Here's those comparisons between 321 and GH BTW.

Example Charts.JPG
 

McFrosticles

Well-Known Member
Yes or no. It all depends how anal you want to get. Lots of 321 users say they have issue free grows, yet when I look at their plants, I saw pretty much the same or at least comparable results that I saw from using GH for so many years, plus when I compared them, I was not at all happy what the numbers looked like. Conversely, I've been in pursuit of perfect nutes ever since, and have invested enough to get three 321s, lol. If you want to go nuts like I did, I linked my thread above where I put all the info I've gathered. Here's those comparisons between 321 and GH BTW.

View attachment 4299419
I'm growing after a long break and the simplicity was a main factor which drew me to this. I don't plan on getting geeked out on anything any time soon lol.

I didn't factor micros in. I know i can't use GH micros due to nitrogen. Will I need some sort of micros additive, or will the 3-2-1 suffice without deficiencies, lockout, hurt yield?

Obviously we all want everything to be optimal but Ive not grown in a while and along with the jack's I'm trying some other new things, so don't want to over compliment things that won't heavily the grow negatively.

Also on the table you posted is the 3.6 /2.4 /1.1 the ideal ratio?
 

Skybound420

Well-Known Member
I'm growing after a long break and the simplicity was a main factor which drew me to this. I don't plan on getting geeked out on anything any time soon lol.

I didn't factor micros in. I know i can't use GH micros due to nitrogen. Will I need some sort of micros additive, or will the 3-2-1 suffice without deficiencies, lockout, hurt yield?

Obviously we all want everything to be optimal but Ive not grown in a while and along with the jack's I'm trying some other new things, so don't want to over compliment things that won't heavily the grow negatively.

Also on the table you posted is the 3.6 /2.4 /1.1 the ideal ratio?
I'm not trying to be offensive, but your statement is fairly conflicted. I know this because I was at the same crossroads some months back. If you want simple or cheap, that limits the possible outcome, so desires like ideal and preferred are lessened. In the chart, is both 3.6-2.4-1.1 & 3-2-1, as well as GH bloom for reference. IMO, GH at 100% is way too hot, GH @70% is still too hot, but lacking in P, Jack's 3.6..... is way too hot, and Jack's 321 is lacking in micros, P and Mg is way too hot.

All of those concerns can be remedied and made "ideal", that's actually ideal, but it will take more investment as well as the need to learn the math, or how to use Hydro Buddy to calculate your doses. I've already made a tutorial on 420mag forums and it's linked above, it will teach you how to use Hydro Buddy, and with that knowledge, you'll be able to make much more informed decisions. FWIW, I had decent luck supplementing my long regimen with GH Flora Micro as I had almost a gallon left over, but would never have been able to do that if I didn't know how to use Hydro Buddy.

As it is now, I no longer use Jack's Peter's or any other Part A mix. I build my entire regimen from the ground up and in about a week will be fully complete in my research and will have a finalized BOM and feed chart. Here's a list of the products I now use, ie Macros and Micros. In about a week, I will replace Micros with Chelated Micros, but still need to purchase the chelated metals.

--Macros
Potassium Silicate
Potassium Sulfate
Calcium Nitrate (cal nit)
Magnesium Nitrate
Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom)
Monopotassium Phosphate (MKP)

--Micros
Iron Sulfate
Manganese Sulfate
Zinc Sulfate
Copper Sulfate
Boric Acid
Sodium Molybdate
---------------------------------------------------------

--Chelated Micros
Iron DTPA
Manganese EDTA
Zinc EDTA
Copper EDTA
Boric Acid
Sodium Molybdate

Right now, I use the Macros and Micros, but refined research has me wanting to use the Chelated Micros and I'll do so in about a week. I have the Boric Acid and Molybdate, but now need to replace the chelated metals. FWIW, I've been using STEM which is JR Peter's micro mix, but it's made of sulfate micros, and when mixed into a concentrate to be used weekly, all of the iron at least fell out of the solution and gave my Pineapple Chunk some damage as a result. This is why I will get chelated micros, then I can dial in the exact numbers I wish to target. If I see any toxicity or deficiency, I can tweak the feed to address every concern w/o fear of changing other things and causing cascading problems. My goal is to give my plants exactly what they need, when they need it and not more. I aim to have perfect leaves and stems at the end of bloom and I am literally inches away from that goal.

So as I said, if you seek simplicity, you'll need to lower your expectations or redefine what "ideal" means to you. For me, it means a whole lot.

https://www.420magazine.com/community/threads/making-your-own-nutrient-concentrates.455187/
 
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