Induction Lights? The newest (supposedly) technology in Induction Grow Lights

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
have a good one beef...

“Do not argue with an idiot they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”




― Mark Twain

I will not engage you again
I'll see your 'engage' and raise you a 'make it so'.

[video=youtube_share;3jd1Ih8EUmw]http://youtu.be/3jd1Ih8EUmw[/video]
 

Kite High

Well-Known Member
BY HERB SPADOWSKI, PH.D.WHAT IS LIGHT:
light has the characcteristics of both a wave and a particle. Figure 1 shows the wavelenght of blue and red light.
The distance between the peaks of the wave is measured in nanometers (nm). As that distance or frequency changes, so does the color of the light. the color red, for example, resides at one end of the visable spectrum and is the result of light with a wavelenghth of 620 to 750 nm. Blue light resides at the opposite end and has a shorter wavelength of 450 to 475 nm. Light is also produced in wavelengths that are out of the visinle range of our eyes, such as ultraviolet (UV) light, and this light also factors into plant processes especially at the end of the flowering period.
Anything that has color or pigments, such as plant leaves, reflect or absorbs light. the light that is reflected off an object hits out eyes, causeing us to see that color. The primary wavelengths of light reflected by cannabis is green, due in large part to pigments such as clorophyll a and b in the leaves; what we don't see as reflected light is mostly absorbed by the leaves. Cannabis leaves absorb most forms of visible light except green and yellow. The majority of the reflected light is green, so the relfected yellow light is not noticeable.
However, leaves can bein to turn yellow if the plants are not healthy. This occers because the unhealthy leaves don't contain enough chlorophyll molecules. Due to the lack of chlorophyll, green light isn' reflected by leaves and yellow becomes the dominat reflected wavelenght.The same phenomenon happens every fall when the leaves of deciduous trees begin to break down chlorophyll. the trees then pull the energy-rich breakdown products out of the leaves before they drop for winter. The result of the lost chlorophyl molecules are the bright reds, oranges and yellows of the fall season.
As stated, light also has the characteristics of a particle. these particles of light are called photons. When the sun is shining or there's a light on, photons of light are pouring down like rain drops. The higher the intensity (strenght) of the light, the greater the quantit of photons emitted; this is why keeping artificial light slose to plant canopies indoors is so vital. Each type of photon has a spesific wavelength that is travels along. so a bulb that is said to be abundant in blue light would emit photons with wavelenghts from 450 to 475 nm.
PHOTOSYNTHETIC PIGMENTS IN CANNABIS:
The amazing thing about plants, including Cannabis, is how they take the energy from photons of light and convert it into molecules of chemical energy. This process is called PHOTOSYNTHESIS, which means "synthesis using light".
During Photosynthesis, cannabis captures photons of light using several diffrent molecules. The primary molecules responsible fo this is Chlorophyl, which occurs in two main forms: chloropyll a and b. Chlorophyll a has a maximum photosyntheic activity when photons of light are at wavelenghts of 430-660 nm while chlorophyll b has a maximum activity at wavelengths of 450 to 640 nm(figure 4). Notice that in figure 4, then the curves for both chlorophyll a and b are in the green-light portion of the graph, their photosynthetic activity decreases greaetly. AGAIN, this is because chlorophyll a and b do not absorb, but rather reflect, green light. it should also be noted that figure 2 depicts the sun's natural spectrum on earth, which shows that wavelengths around 450 nm (blues) and 650 nm(reds)are the least abundant in nature. This has led some scientists to conclude that the reason there's higher absorption activity in at these wavelenghts in because the plants have evolved to become more efficient at processing what is least available to them.
The second most abundant light-absorbing compounds in cannabis are caroteniods, which are also shown in figure 4, carotenoids are inportant for photosynthesis in all plants. Notice they have very low photosynthetic activity in the areas of yellow, orange and red light. In addition to playing a important role in photosynthesis, these compounds are also responsible for the color of yellow flowers, orange carrots and red tomatoes.
THE LIGHT-HARVESTING COMPLEX:
The pigments discussed make up a highly complex structure called the light harvesting or antennae complex, which exists in all plants ( figure 5). this complesx is complesed of about 200 to 300 chlorophyll molecules, numerous carotenoids, and several other light sensitive molecules and imprtant proteins. all of these components are arranged around a central chlorophyll molecule called the reaction center. the reaction center is responsible for the conversion of light energy into chemical energy through the transfer of a single electron.
This process works as follows: When one of the light-sensitive molecules, such as chlorophyll is struck by a photon of light, it enters into an excited state. as it returns back to its normal state, the energy is transferred toward the reaction center. It takes many photons striking many molecules in the liight-harvesting complex to reach the goal of transferring a single electron to the reaction center. Picture one person trying to push a boulder that will not move; if the number of people pushing that boulder increases, together they will create enough force to roll it. The same action occurs during photosynthesis, whereby energy from a number of light photons is required to create enough energy for the transfer of a single electron. This electron tranfer is the very first chemical step into creation of sugar (glucose) from carbon dioxide (co2) and water (h2o) during photosynthesis. furthermore, this sugar is the primary source of energy for the reactions and biochemical processes that will lead to the glistening, resinous THC glands that top your cannabis buds.
LIGHT INTENSITY:
Now we understand a little bit more about how cannabis plants capture light photons and covert their energy into chemical energy and biomass. How then, as a grower of cannabis, can you maximize plant efficincy and yeilds with commercially available lights? whenit comes to light intensity (i.e., Quantity of light), the answer is pretty simple: morelight. it is difficult to overdo the Quantity of light for Cannabis production (always assuming that you have proper temperature controls in place). Generally, the more lights you have and the more powerful those lights, the better your light intesnsity(though not so much better for your electric bill).
But adding more lamps or using higher wattages isn't the only way to increase light intensity. keeping lamps close to the garden canopy will increases the intensity of light reaching your plants and make more efficient use of the electricity you're paying for. The Inverse-square LAW dictates a specified physical quantity or strength is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from its sorce in the case of light, this basically measn that the strength of the light decreases exponentially with everyfoot of distance between the lamp and your plants
EFFECTS OF LIGHT QUALITY:
The sectral quality of wavelength of light is another important factor when it comes to the productivity and quality of cannabis-AND its; salso one of the most complicated. in many diffrent types of plants, the quality of light can affect such things as disease resistance, plant anatomy and morphology, nuitrient uptake and the formation of secondary compounds( such as THC)
A number of scientific studies have shown that blue light has an influence on the number of chloroplasts (which contain the light-harvesting complex and cholophyll) and the stomatal opening. Stomata are the part of the leaf that controls the gas exchange and therefore how much carbon dioxide is available to the leaf for photosynthesis. Many other studies have showen that plants under white LED (whcih Contain al the colors of the spectrum) grow better then plants under red LED light alone, blue LED light alone or even red and blue LED lights in combination. These studies re-emphasize the importance of full-spectrum light in our gardens.
Another study-this one preformed in indiana university by two researchers named maahlberg and hemphill-tested THC content in the leaves of cannabis plants grown under sunlight, red light, blue light, green light, or complete darkness. The experiment revealed that the plant grown under the sunlight had the highest THC concerntration. The THC concerntration decreased successively in the plants grown under red light blue light and green light; the plants grown in darkness had the lowest thc content. Addintionally , under every light treatment, the researchers found that the leaves receiveding the highest quantitiy of light had the highest concerntration of thc. although the researchers weren't specificall looking to evaluate THC content, they did discover that wavelength, or the spectral quality of the light sorce (i.e.., full spectrum versus a single or limited spectrum), is an important factor for THC production, and also that shading can also lower THC concentrations.
CHOOSING LIGHTS:
With all of this information at hand, choosing a light of combination of lights for growing can be a daunting task. figure 7 shows most of the possibilities of light sources, as welll as the distribution of spectral wavelengths produced by each.
Notice that sunlight has by far the broadest possiable spectrum of light available-for horticultural purposes, its the very definition of full-spectrum light. This characteristic, along with the high intensity and raw power of sunlight, is why this soruce of light is the best for cannabis production... not to mention that is free! But as we all know this isn't always an option, and plants must often be grown indoors underartificial lit conditions. therefore, choosing a combination of lights that matches the spectral ratio of the sun is the best option for you plants
All of the liht sorces shown in figure 7 have been around for some time, with the exception of plasma lights. these are the latest and greatest light sorce for indoor cannabis production and produce a spectrum similar to the sun(bear in mind that sunloight is also plasma light). these lights are also highly energy-efficient. currently, the main problem with plasma lights is their price, which can reach serveral thouasnd dollars. With increasing demand and manufacturing, however, expect these prices to drop over time.
So now you might be asking, "how can i mimic the quality of the sun and efficienttly- at low cost- produce the best cannabis possiable?" Unfortunatly, there is no simple anwser to this. Theres a good deal of anecdotal information all over the internet on which wavelength are best for cannabuss abd THC production, but most of this informatino is not proven and was likely developed underless than-scientific conditions. Think back to the light-harvesting complex: if you're using only red light to grow your plants, there's a lot of light-absorbing molecules that respond to many diffrent wavelengths just sitting around doign nothing. this decreases the effcientcy of your plants' photosynthetic system and production.

This is why, as a grower, you need a system of lights that best mimics the quality of sunlight(while also staying within your budget). Remember to keep your lamps close to the garden canopty and utilze proper ventilation for athosphere and temperture control. Putting lights on light movers -is also a great idea. And supplementing HID lighting with Broader-spectrum lighting will go a long wa towards ensuring that yur plants are happy, healthy and , most importantly, productive HAPPY GROWING..
light is green, so the relfected yellow light is not noticeable.
However, leaves can bein to turn yellow if the plants are not healthy. This occers because the unhealthy leaves don't contain enough chlorophyll molecules. Due to the lack of chlorophyll, green light isn' reflected by leaves and yellow becomes the dominat reflected wavelenght.The same phenomenon happens every fall when the leaves of deciduous trees begin to break down chlorophyll. the trees then pull the energy-rich breakdown products out of the leaves before they drop for winter. The result of the lost chlorophyl molecules are the bright reds, oranges and yellows of the fall season.
As stated, light also has the characteristics of a particle. these particles of light are called photons. When the sun is shining or there's a light on, photons of light are pouring down like rain drops. The higher the intensity (strenght) of the light, the greater the quantit of photons emitted; this is why keeping artificial light slose to plant canopies indoors is so vital. Each type of photon has a spesific wavelength that is travels along. so a bulb that is said to be abundant in blue light would emit photons with wavelenghts from 450 to 475 nm.
PHOTOSYNTHETIC PIGMENTS IN CANNABIS:
The amazing thing about plants, including Cannabis, is how they take the energy from photons of light and convert it into molecules of chemical energy. This process is called PHOTOSYNTHESIS, which means "synthesis using light".
During Photosynthesis, cannabis captures photons of light using several diffrent molecules. The primary molecules responsible fo this is Chlorophyl, which occurs in two main forms: chloropyll a and b. Chlorophyll a has a maximum photosyntheic activity when photons of light are at wavelenghts of 430-660 nm while chlorophyll b has a maximum activity at wavelengths of 450 to 640 nm(figure 4). Notice that in figure 4, then the curves for both chlorophyll a and b are in the green-light portion of the graph, their photosynthetic activity decreases greaetly. AGAIN, this is because chlorophyll a and b do not absorb, but rather reflect, green light. it should also be noted that figure 2 depicts the sun's natural spectrum on earth, which shows that wavelengths around 450 nm (blues) and 650 nm(reds)are the least abundant in nature. This has led some scientists to conclude that the reason there's higher absorption activity in at these wavelenghts in because the plants have evolved to become more efficient at processing what is least available to them.
The second most abundant light-absorbing compounds in cannabis are caroteniods, which are also shown in figure 4, carotenoids are inportant for photosynthesis in all plants. Notice they have very low photosynthetic activity in the areas of yellow, orange and red light. In addition to playing a important role in photosynthesis, these compounds are also responsible for the color of yellow flowers, orange carrots and red tomatoes.
THE LIGHT-HARVESTING COMPLEX:
The pigments discussed make up a highly complex structure called the light harvesting or antennae complex, which exists in all plants ( figure 5). this complesx is complesed of about 200 to 300 chlorophyll molecules, numerous carotenoids, and several other light sensitive molecules and imprtant proteins. all of these components are arranged around a central chlorophyll molecule called the reaction center. the reaction center is responsible for the conversion of light energy into chemical energy through the transfer of a single electron.
This process works as follows: When one of the light-sensitive molecules, such as chlorophyll is struck by a photon of light, it enters into an excited state. as it returns back to its normal state, the energy is transferred toward the reaction center. It takes many photons striking many molecules in the liight-harvesting complex to reach the goal of transferring a single electron to the reaction center. Picture one person trying to push a boulder that will not move; if the number of people pushing that boulder increases, together they will create enough force to roll it. The same action occurs during photosynthesis, whereby energy from a number of light photons is required to create enough energy for the transfer of a single electron. This electron tranfer is the very first chemical step into creation of sugar (glucose) from carbon dioxide (co2) and water (h2o) during photosynthesis. furthermore, this sugar is the primary source of energy for the reactions and biochemical processes that will lead to the glistening, resinous THC glands that top your cannabis buds.
LIGHT INTENSITY:
Now we understand a little bit more about how cannabis plants capture light photons and covert their energy into chemical energy and biomass. How then, as a grower of cannabis, can you maximize plant efficincy and yeilds with commercially available lights? whenit comes to light intensity (i.e., Quantity of light), the answer is pretty simple: morelight. it is difficult to overdo the Quantity of light for Cannabis production (always assuming that you have proper temperature controls in place). Generally, the more lights you have and the more powerful those lights, the better your light intesnsity(though not so much better for your electric bill).
But adding more lamps or using higher wattages isn't the only way to increase light intensity. keeping lamps close to the garden canopy will increases the intensity of light reaching your plants and make more efficient use of the electricity you're paying for. The Inverse-square LAW dictates a specified physical quantity or strength is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from its sorce in the case of light, this basically measn that the strength of the light decreases exponentially with everyfoot of distance between the lamp and your plants
EFFECTS OF LIGHT QUALITY:
The sectral quality of wavelength of light is another important factor when it comes to the productivity and quality of cannabis-AND its; salso one of the most complicated. in many diffrent types of plants, the quality of light can affect such things as disease resistance, plant anatomy and morphology, nuitrient uptake and the formation of secondary compounds( such as THC)
A number of scientific studies have shown that blue light has an influence on the number of chloroplasts (which contain the light-harvesting complex and cholophyll) and the stomatal opening. Stomata are the part of the leaf that controls the gas exchange and therefore how much carbon dioxide is available to the leaf for photosynthesis. Many other studies have showen that plants under white LED (whcih Contain al the colors of the spectrum) grow better then plants under red LED light alone, blue LED light alone or even red and blue LED lights in combination. These studies re-emphasize the importance of full-spectrum light in our gardens.
Another study-this one preformed in indiana university by two researchers named maahlberg and hemphill-tested THC content in the leaves of cannabis plants grown under sunlight, red light, blue light, green light, or complete darkness. The experiment revealed that the plant grown under the sunlight had the highest THC concerntration. The THC concerntration decreased successively in the plants grown under red light blue light and green light; the plants grown in darkness had the lowest thc content. Addintionally , under every light treatment, the researchers found that the leaves receiveding the highest quantitiy of light had the highest concerntration of thc. although the researchers weren't specificall looking to evaluate THC content, they did discover that wavelength, or the spectral quality of the light sorce (i.e.., full spectrum versus a single or limited spectrum), is an important factor for THC production, and also that shading can also lower THC concentrations.
CHOOSING LIGHTS:
With all of this information at hand, choosing a light of combination of lights for growing can be a daunting task. figure 7 shows most of the possibilities of light sources, as welll as the distribution of spectral wavelengths produced by each.
Notice that sunlight has by far the broadest possiable spectrum of light available-for horticultural purposes, its the very definition of full-spectrum light. This characteristic, along with the high intensity and raw power of sunlight, is why this soruce of light is the best for cannabis production... not to mention that is free! But as we all know this isn't always an option, and plants must often be grown indoors underartificial lit conditions. therefore, choosing a combination of lights that matches the spectral ratio of the sun is the best option for you plants
All of the liht sorces shown in figure 7 have been around for some time, with the exception of plasma lights. these are the latest and greatest light sorce for indoor cannabis production and produce a spectrum similar to the sun(bear in mind that sunloight is also plasma light). these lights are also highly energy-efficient. currently, the main problem with plasma lights is their price, which can reach serveral thouasnd dollars. With increasing demand and manufacturing, however, expect these prices to drop over time.
So now you might be asking, "how can i mimic the quality of the sun and efficienttly- at low cost- produce the best cannabis possiable?" Unfortunatly, there is no simple anwser to this. Theres a good deal of anecdotal information all over the internet on which wavelength are best for cannabuss abd THC production, but most of this informatino is not proven and was likely developed underless than-scientific conditions. Think back to the light-harvesting complex: if you're using only red light to grow your plants, there's a lot of light-absorbing molecules that respond to many diffrent wavelengths just sitting around doign nothing. this decreases the effcientcy of your plants' photosynthetic system and production.
This is why, as a grower, you need a system of lights that best mimics the quality of sunlight(while also staying within your budget). Remember to keep your lamps close to the garden canopty and utilze proper ventilation for athosphere and temperture control. Putting lights on light movers -is also a great idea. And supplementing HID lighting with Broader-spectrum lighting will go a long wa towards ensuring that yur plants are happy, healthy and , most importantly, productive HAPPY GROWING..
 

chazbolin

Well-Known Member
Putting lights on light movers -is also a great idea. And supplementing HID lighting with Broader-spectrum lighting will go a long wa towards ensuring that yur plants are happy, healthy and , most importantly, productive HAPPY GROWING..
Hey Kite! Since you're pointing to this article do you mind telling me where you pulled this from? My sense is it's about ten years old.
 

Kite High

Well-Known Member
Hey Kite! Since you're pointing to this article do you mind telling me where you pulled this from? My sense is it's about ten years old.
high times article 2011

and I have 2 400 watt cmh in PL Deep reflectors on movers overhead, 8 t5ho 2 in each corner, 1 400 watt vertical below the canopy 2 mh uvb 70 watts zoo lamps overhead

the vertical gets swapped between cmh, mh, and hps dependent on grow cycle

T5ho 12 aradias one in each corner fixture and either actinic or pink ho's dependent on plant cycle

all externally ballasted outside of the grow
full complete spectrum similar to the conditions at high elevations in arid conditions...where the strongest landraces were located...with additional red and blue for saturation and Emerson Effect
 

chazbolin

Well-Known Member
I didn't get the figure attachments but it sounds like the author was not taking into account the original philosophy of precise spectrum LED that would provide action spectra at only those wavelengths that benefited plant growth. This philosophy took a decided turn towards less is more. This tangent in energy efficient lighting happened to produce less than appealing returns relative to HID grows and it hasn't been up until the recent adoption pf broader spectrum's and white diode by the LED panel manufactures that the importance of broader spectrum's has become essential in their quest towards improving LED as a technology that could eventually surpass HID as measured in a variety of matrix's.

The author suggests adding more lights/watts will increase yields to an unlimited degree and makes passing reference to energy efficiency relative to high utility bills. OK that is a start. His final statement that HID requires a broad spectrum supplement to optimize production tells me he's on the right track just approaching it backward since he points to plasma as the newest end all as the most advanced technology available for indoor lighting. So not true when you have to supplement plasma with an HPS to flower. Puhleez...There is no doubt in my mind that it will be an EFDL/LED combination with controls that mimic sunset conditions that revolutionize the way we optimize quality/yields without increasing but in fact decreasing the connected loads while accomplishing this.

However I've been wrong before. I had the Patriots.
 

Kite High

Well-Known Member
I didn't get the figure attachments but it sounds like the author was not taking into account the original philosophy of precise spectrum LED that would provide action spectra at only those wavelengths that benefited plant growth. This philosophy took a decided turn towards less is more. This tangent in energy efficient lighting happened to produce less than appealing returns relative to HID grows and his hasn't been up until the recent adoption of LED panel manufactures that the importance of broader spectrum's has become the quest towards improving LED as a technology that could eventually surpass HID as measured in a variety of matrix's.

The author suggests adding more lights/watts will increase yields to an unlimited degree and makes passing reference to energy efficiency relative to high utility bills. OK that is a start. His final statement that HID requires a broad spectrum supplement to optimize production tells me he's on the right track just approaching it backward since he points to plasma as the newest end all as the most advanced technology available for indoor lighting. So not true when you have to supplement plasma with an HPS to flower. Puhleez...There is no doubt in my mind that it will be an EFDL/LED combination with controls that mimic sunset conditions that revolutionize the way we optimize quality/yields without increasing but in fact decreasing the connected loads while accomplishing this.

However I've been wrong before. I had the Patriots.
Again I will state that I too believe that purely from the vast resources being poured into R&D for LEDS that they will surpass HID and probably soon...but I<ME<MYSELF am waiting to see it actually occur in growrooms and the insane price gouging to level off as it would not benefit me to switch now

I won $500 on the Ravens:bigjoint:
 

chazbolin

Well-Known Member
unfortunately my crystal ball was in the shop and I went with instinct. Oh well I nailed Caesars at black jack so all is well.

I think you're understanding of plant photobiology, your lighting systems, testing equipment and experience is not what the average, over even above average grower, possesses. Nor should they need to. It's the job of manufacturer's to bring products to market that exceed the end users expectations and make growing your own an enjoyable and rewarding experience. By not making it so you have to mix every nute and making systems that reward the gardener without flogging them to death with high utility bills and endless trips to the hydro shop to buy replacement lamps and AC systems to overcome the heat they put out. This is what will bring gardening to within the reach of those inclined to pay attention to proper setup and procedures than go on to refine those methods from crop to crop, capitalizing on what they've learned and not making the same mistakes they undoubtedly made in previous attempts. My motto: KISS - enjoy your garden and it's rewards.

Kite you have to face the fact that you are the exception rather than the rule.
 

Kite High

Well-Known Member
well its not my fault I want to do it the best I can and have the resources

but yes I started with 2 fluorescent tube abd 2 incandescent as it was all that there was

While I agree with your sentiment it is not grounded in reality...the manufacturers are after $$$ first everything else is secondary...so if good enough will sell well they WILL NOT venture on to what is best

There are many things to improve on in mh plasma as efficiency is down and that is the reason for including the hps...not spectrum but rather energy

On another note induction is pretty much the best it can get...not much more possible improvement nor dedicated resources for such...ledes and plasma to a lesser degree than led has lotsa improvement potential and dedicated resources for it

For a grower in a small restricted environment I concede induction and led are a good choice ...yes chaz I have always realized this...but they aren't up to the plate yet in my circumstance
 

chazbolin

Well-Known Member
Kind of a sweeping statement there Kite. But let's for the sake of argument say all manufacturers are driven by greed and chase the almighty dollar with no regard to product viability or efficacy. No withstanding the fact that this started out as an igrow thread, their primary goal being to rape and pillage every market opportunity possible. How many of these manufacturers survive even two years? Customers vote with their wallets and their feet. They are the ultimate adjudicator as to product value. Their commitment to a product by electing to purchase it, remains a testament to how they are treated and how well the products perform. Nothing more nothing less.

Since you already believe what drives all manufacturers is greed than the question becomes;
As a grower what drives you?
As a dispensary owner what drives you?
As a retail hydro store what drives you?
As a manufacturers rep what drives you?
As a wholesaler distributor to the hydro stores what drives you?

The answer will inevitably include the word profit but there are many who would honestly answer that they also enjoy what they do and really like bringing something of value to their customers. So Kite you appear to be the exception rather than the rule, tell me what drives you?
 

Kite High

Well-Known Member
to grow the most hallucinogenic cannabis possible...

ok I see you want to know some of my business so I will share it as I respect you and learn with you

I test strains for dispensary grows...I have one room for me...3 for them...they send me seeds I grow them ...when I like I see and feel confirmed by lab results I grow them again to optimum..they are tested and this gives them the mark to shoot for...I include the things I know helped and hurt from my grow and they implement it...the two that I do this for in 1 year have increased their potency of their meds 23% on average...they paid for their 3 rooms equipment and operation costs....I get 10% of all sales of the strains I endorse...I never show the other 3 rooms anywhere on the net and the one is totally for my own use/ supply and I paid for it...it is quite lucrative to say the least...I built mine first then went to them and they about shit them selves...lol...oh and all the test meds from the other three rooms I donate to indigent patients ...I do not sell anything but my results and data


The lab results I post are from the grows I do for them...I do not test my own other than by using it
 

natro.hydro

Well-Known Member
Really is fun to see two great minds battle lol. Not that this is necessarily hostile but its in the air.... Sounds like you are living the dream kite, or atleast my dream.
 

chazbolin

Well-Known Member
well its not my fault I want to do it the best I can and have the resources
I'm not faulting your investment decisions or equipment in the least. On the contrary, it takes someone with not only the financial resources but the experience and know how to utilize this array of equipment to meet your goals. I can't tell you how may people I've run into who have plenty of money try to get in the game by throwing money at the project only to be disappointed with the amount of work it takes and the high risk:reward quotient. There are some dues to pay and it starts off by learning what works and what doesn't.

the two that I do this for in 1 year have increased their potency of their meds 23% on average...
really? 23% on average? documented testing right? If you've posted them on RIU as before and afters I've missed them. repost if it's not too much trouble. With strain improvements like that I can see how the dispensaries would have shat themselves.

it is quite lucrative to say the least
There is nothing wrong with lucrative. I recently had a client pay me $500.00 for a 30 minute consult. At the end he said I had saved him tens of thousands of dollars and untold time that would have been lost had the database been lost or corrupted. He happily paid my fee and commented that he's paying for what's between my ears not what is on my shelf.

I do not sell anything but my results and data
But you still sell something. It is your work. Your knowledge, Your results. You set a price and people pay it, or don't. They buy what you sell at your terms and you enjoy what you do. You are able to tie in your altruistic gifts to indigent patients because you covered your expenses and made a profit. If on the other hand it was you who were the indigent patient you would be looking for someone just like you who applied themselves and learned your methods and techniques over time, made the investment over time, took the risks, had failures, spent hundreds even thousands of uncompensated hours trying different products out to realize their benefits or lack thereof, maybe got taken advantage of here and there, and so on. You do this first because of first it is your passion and secondly because it pays an income that allows you to most likely provide jobs to others and keep yourself in the standard of living you wouldn't have had as an automaton working 9-5 somewhere putting your 20 years in for the social security check that will never come. And for that you should be rewarded. I would not characterize that reward, be it large or small, as greed if there are those that value your work and are willing to pay your price.

I get 10% of all sales of the strains I endorse...
Kite I'm not faulting you for your business acumen at all but let's take a second to compare this relationship you have with your dispensaries to that of the 'manufacturer' who sells a product with simply design obsolescence in mind which in today's throw away society is not considered unethical but the rule rather than the exception. Keep in mind that in this comparison I'm not talking about the 'manufacturer' who would deliberately mislead customers by misstating what it is their products can do, or attempt to deceive the customer through the use of cooked testimony, endorsements, graphics, or by demanding that the greatest crop returns come from relamping, ventilating, adding more lights, buying the latest technical breakthrough for your garden, etc etc. all the while charging usury prices to further compound this criminal deception.

What that manufacturer is doing when he provides a product with design obsolescence in mind is that yes they the manufacturer will profit but so will the stores and the employee's will have jobs and communities will get tax revenues and the customers will happily return to the shops to buy these products, oh let's just say we're talking HID lamps here, that have a life span of 20,000 hours but in a garden environment are being changed every 4000 hours. The customer pays this price, regularly, because they have factored the lamp as a cost of doing business. Every single person in this food chain wins except the patient. The hydroshop has a 'legitimate' solution to indoor garden lighting that everyone, ie experts, will attest to 'this is the way to do it right'. The other winners are the wholesale distributors that sell to all the hydroshops because they whip the marketing up to a frenzy which further reinforces the 'benefits' of these products. Call it success by association. The wholesaler makes their piece and they pay reps who in turn put pallets of this shit into the hyrdoshops where the lemmings lock step to the POS. This is all done because someone traded on their name and the products do deliver, to varying degrees, but at a cost. All these 'middle men' have created an environment where even the legitimate manufacturer will look to be 'creative' to satisfy the hunger of all those that stand between their manufactured products and the end user.

Your commission arrangements with the dispensaries is creative and you deserve whatever the dispensaries are willing to pay you for the value you provide them. And from what you've said you have given them and their patients that value represents enormous improvements in their meds. But your still trading on your work and the value is such that it's worth it to the dispensaries to pay you this commission which is a result of happy customers, regularly paying the dispensaries price. The weed, a product, is consumed thereby needing to be replenished meaning the recurring revenues, similar to that driven by design obsolescence, will pay dividends for you and those in that food chain long after your initial work has been completed.

All I'm getting at is that when you make these broad sweeping statements that accuse all manufacturer's intents and purposes to be driven by greed is myopic. Profits drive innovations. Innovations that actually work and make it better for the garden and the environment need to make it to customers without too many middlemen cluttering up the message.

Namaste my friend.
 

PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
What is the highest documented potency of the strains you grew Kite???which specific strain if you can say?

much appreciated
 
I'm with Natro. This is fun to read and I'm tring to pick some of this up but you guys lost me at nm.


Kite and Chaz,
Could you please be more detailed in your posts. Lol. Just kidding Great read guys
 

Mr. Outdoors

Well-Known Member
I too am enjoying the read and volley back and forth. Its post like this that educate and help others decide which side of the fence they may be on or even somewhere in between. Thanks guys.
 

richinweed

Active Member
Talk about paid faces, these guys are for sure working for inda-gro is it not obvious? This type of thread is exactly why i am going to start my own blog about growing with induction and the igrow induction that i purchased. if you guys did any research like i did you would know that igrow is actually working with full spectrum solutions, who by the way has a pretty good resume.

im sending an email to roll it up, enough of this b.s. this is supposed to be a forum about growing and helping each other grow. Not about posting b.s. about a company you either work for or that you are a friend of. get real.

Hopefully everyone reading this will clearly see through it, im not a genius but pretty easy to see that this is a campaign and not intended to help anyone.
yup these fools are totally scripted....they dont evan think to script outside the box they so poor at it..
 
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