in your 'personal' view, is possessing seeds and growing plants your right?

is possessing seeds and growing 'any' plants your self evident inherent human right?

  • yes

    Votes: 57 90.5%
  • no

    Votes: 4 6.3%
  • i dont know

    Votes: 2 3.2%

  • Total voters
    63
I believe the sun will rise in the morning, but I do not worship the sun. Belief alone does not constitute religion.

actually belief is the foundation for many religions (i would say most), because most religions are based on notions that cannot be proven one way or the other...
my personal 'religion' is based on that which can be shown to be true such as gravity etc, in other words the physical laws of nature constitute that which i commit my life to...and in there i see 'self ownership' (applies to all living beings including dogs and cats etc lol) as self evident (in part) by the observable facts that i have offered here in the previous posts.
 
actually belief is the foundation for many religions (i would say most), because most religions are based on notions that cannot be proven one way or the other...
my personal 'religion' is based on that which can be shown to be true such as gravity etc, in other words the physical laws of nature constitute that which i commit my life to...and in there i see 'self ownership' (applies to all living beings including dogs and cats etc lol) as self evident (in part) by the observable facts that i have offered here in the previous posts.

you cannot prove the existence of free will. By your logic, a belief in it constitutes a religion.
 
you cannot prove the existence of free will. By your logic, a belief in it constitutes a religion.

no'canndo because the proof is self evident, in my view it is how you have already stated in that you 'believe' otherwise and to me that seems in tradition with many traditional religions where faith is all thats needed etc, in my understanding of what i am and how i am to live 'faith' is of little use in comparison to fact...
 
no'canndo because the proof is self evident, in my view it is how you have already stated in that you 'believe' otherwise and to me that seems in tradition with many traditional religions where faith is all thats needed etc, in my understanding of what i am and how i am to live 'faith' is of little use in comparison to fact...


What is self evident about free will? you may have the illusion of free will but you cannot "prove" it. hence, you believe in free will where I do not. Show me the "fact" of free will. It could also be "self evident" that there is a creator, yet that also may be an illusion or an artifact of human mentality.
 
Cute, but still, I am saying nothing about what should or shouldn't be, I am commenting upon what I believe IS.


In that case we agree. Self ownership is limited by other people that like to control others. When these others band together and create "governments", they codify ways of limiting self ownership.

In the moral sense, the concept of self ownership is the path I chose. This necessitates that for me to enjoy self ownership, I should respect the rights of others to do the same. Without that reciprocity mankind will remain mired in the "what is" and will not graduate to the "what ought to be".
 
In that case we agree. Self ownership is limited by other people that like to control others. When these others band together and create "governments", they codify ways of limiting self ownership.

In the moral sense, the concept of self ownership is the path I chose. This necessitates that for me to enjoy self ownership, I should respect the rights of others to do the same. Without that reciprocity mankind will remain mired in the "what is" and will not graduate to the "what ought to be".



When you can change the absolute nature of man - man, the apex preditor on the planet, you can promulgate your theories, until then. As I said, the apex preditor will take advantage of everyone and everything around him. Your theories of behavior and non-intereference in the actions of others does not bear up in any group of predators. Pack animals have naturaly found Alpha males and females, those alphas take from other individuals in their own group. Herd animals are "lead" by the domnant members of their groups, so too, man is selected, usually by his place within his society and most will take from those who occupy a lower place.

This is not theory, it is observed animal behavior. Even in the world of plants, or fungus, there is a constant taking by those organisms capable of soing so from those who are incapable of protecting themselves or their "property".
 
When you can change the absolute nature of man - man, the apex preditor on the planet, you can promulgate your theories, until then. As I said, the apex preditor will take advantage of everyone and everything around him. Your theories of behavior and non-intereference in the actions of others does not bear up in any group of predators. Pack animals have naturaly found Alpha males and females, those alphas take from other individuals in their own group. Herd animals are "lead" by the domnant members of their groups, so too, man is selected, usually by his place within his society and most will take from those who occupy a lower place.

This is not theory, it is observed animal behavior. Even in the world of plants, or fungus, there is a constant taking by those organisms capable of soing so from those who are incapable of protecting themselves or their "property".


So you find "taking" to be justified? Is that the path you want others to follow and that you follow?

Also it's predator, not preditor. If it bleeds we can kill it!! (from the movie)
 
What is self evident about free will? you may have the illusion of free will but you cannot "prove" it. hence, you believe in free will where I do not. Show me the "fact" of free will. It could also be "self evident" that there is a creator, yet that also may be an illusion or an artifact of human mentality.

how is it self evident that there is a 'creator'?

In that case we agree. Self ownership is limited by other people that like to control others. When these others band together and create "governments", they codify ways of limiting self ownership.

In the moral sense, the concept of self ownership is the path I chose. This necessitates that for me to enjoy self ownership, I should respect the rights of others to do the same. Without that reciprocity mankind will remain mired in the "what is" and will not graduate to the "what ought to be".

i disagree on the basis of the ability to kill ones self, otherwise you are still choosing to take part in whatever chains that bind you...
being killed by someone else in no way implies said killer takes ownership of the dead...but taking ones own life involves a whole other dynamic, the opposite dynamic imo...and it is in there that the rubber meets the road of self ownership...
 
So you find "taking" to be justified? Is that the path you want others to follow and that you follow?

Also it's predator, not preditor. If it bleeds we can kill it!! (from the movie)

justified? Yes, evolution shows it to be and we predators operate within evolutionary law. Your ideology violates the very concepts of natural order. What you plead for is akin to asking elephants to fly. It is a beautiful ideal but it can never support its inherent weight.
 
how is it self evident that there is a 'creator'?



i disagree on the basis of the ability to kill ones self, otherwise you are still choosing to take part in whatever chains that bind you...
being killed by someone else in no way implies said killer takes ownership of the dead...but taking ones own life involves a whole other dynamic, the opposite dynamic imo...and it is in there that the rubber meets the road of self ownership...




the very concept of "self evidence" is belief. If I take your life then for even a moment or two I did indeed own it or I could never have taken it in the first place. One is capable of mastering even your beliefs. If I am capable of convincing you that 72 virgins await, then you will low yourself up and you will believe you did so of your own free will. In fact, I owned you.
 
the very concept of "self evidence" is belief. If I take your life then for even a moment or two I did indeed own it or I could never have taken it in the first place. One is capable of mastering even your beliefs. If I am capable of convincing you that 72 virgins await, then you will low yourself up and you will believe you did so of your own free will. In fact, I owned you.

no'canndo, you could kill me now and not for a moment does that imply ownership, it only implies an action on your part that you own...you only own the action...
the rest of what you describe goes to belief up until the person commits suicide, and such person owns that action (owns the belief as well even if bought it from you), doesnt own others killed or 72 pretend virgins...
ps...the concept of self evident implies that belief or faith is unnecessary...in other words it implies that something exists where anyone can see it for themselves...it implies fact
 
here is the final cut on this proposed measure that we will most likely turn in to the county in the coming week, then they will have 15 days to prepare the summery statement and then hand it back to us for the sig gathering or tell us it cant be on the ballot due to the conflict that would arise between state and county law lol...we welcome either response!

-Lake County 'Freedom to Grow Plants' Human Rights Initiative 11564-
Whereas on this day of November 4, 2014, in the State of California, the people of the County of Lake do hereby find and declare that:
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for people to reaffirm and reestablish the fundamental human rights that they are naturally endowed, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's origins entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of humankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to come forward in the reestablishment of those rights.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all humans are created equal, that they are naturally endowed with certain Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness,
--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,
--That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to re-declare and reestablish the inherent human rights that would intrinsically correct such governmental negligence, and to reconstitute such in a form as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness, and in accordance with the 9th amendment of the Constitution of the United State of America:
Amendment IX,
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
And, also in accordance with the California State Constitution's Article 1 Declaration of Rights:
Section 21., ...
"This declaration of rights may not be construed to impair or deny others retained by the people."
And,
--Whereas disregard and contempt for certain human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of humankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people, it has become necessary to reaffirm and specifically constitute that:
(section) 1.
Humans are naturally endowed with the fundamental right to partner with the soil and posses the seeds of, and partner with, and grow the plants of this earth for their own uses as individuals in pursuit of life and in effort to live, and that such basic human rights exist and are held in perpetuity outside of the constitutional responsibility of government to protect an individuals right to engage in commerce.
(section) 1.(a)
All County of Lake residents who exercise the rights described in section 1., and are compliant with section 2.(a), and are gardening outside (outdoor) or in green houses, are exempt from any county permitting or other county ordinances that would limit an individuals home gardening efforts in conjunction with section 1.
(section) 1.(b)
The County of Lake shall encourage and cooperate with people exercising the rights described in section 1 in every way available, and individuals exercising such rights in effort to grow food for their own consumption shall be exempt from paying for the portion of their water use that goes to water such food gardens, and such exemptions are to be determined based on garden size and the reasonable amount of water it takes to maintain such, and also based on the physical increase in water usage that exceeds the normal average water usage of the particular household without a food garden.
(section) 2.
Should neighbor complaints that are not related to section 2.(a), or are not related to a specific medically verifiable toxic health risk to the public arise as an official complaint to the county as a result of individuals exercising the rights as described in section 1., (not withstanding any effected party choosing to seek remedy and or reparations by way of litigation through civil proceedings), all the effected parties shall be directed to mediation provided for by the County of Lake, and if resolution between the effected parties cannot be achieved in a reasonable effort to mediate, the effected parties shall then continue mediation at their own expense (to be equally divided between the effected parties) until a resolution between the parties can be agreed upon, or until the effected parties agree to withdraw from mediation.
(section) 2.(a)
All who exercise the rights described in section 1., shall take reasonable care to prevent environmental destruction, and are responsible to mitigate any possible foreseen negative impacts on the natural environments, and all persons who neglect such practices shall be subject to the authority of any County of Lake ordinance(s) that would provide reasonable remedy, but such remedies are to be used to help individuals come into compliance with this section and not to unreasonably burden individuals who exercise the rights described in section 1.
(section) 2.(b)
The County of Lake Environmental Health department shall administer over individual circumstances that may arise due to non compliance with section 2., section 2.(a), and section 2.(c), but all such administrative authority and 'compliance checks' shall be restricted to circumstances where a verifiable neighbor complaint has been officially registered with the county, and such authority shall not be blanketly imposed on those who exercise the rights as described in section 1., or 1.(a).
(section) 2(c)
If an individual's income qualifies for the low income standards of the county, then the county shall assist in an individuals effort to comply with section 2.(a) by mitigating the costs of any such remedies, but shall not do so in cases where the environmental damage is occurring from an individuals use of non organic gardening chemicals including but not limited to pesticides, herbicides, fungicides and fertilizers, and the County of Lake retains the authority to limit the use of such chemicals if such a remedy is applicable to the circumstance(s).
(section) 3.
All County, State and Federal criminal laws that exist in conflict with individuals exercising the human rights as described in section 1., (and not withstanding an individual in violation of using illegal gardening chemicals including but not limited to certain pesticides, herbicides, fungicides and fertilizers), are to be set aside unless it can be determined that the individual circumstance is occurring within the context of 'commerce' related activities as defined herein,
--For the expressed purposes of this document the word "commerce" shall be taken to mean:
The buying and selling of goods in any form, as between individual humans, and in direct reference to the exchange of United States currency (or other such legally recognized tender) for such goods or services.
(section) 3.(a)
If any provision of this Initiative or the application thereof to any person or circumstance is held invalid, such invalidity shall not affect other provisions or applications of the Initiative which can be given effect without the invalid provision or application, and to this end the provisions of this Initiative are severable. The People of the County of Lake hereby declare that we would have adopted this Initiative irrespective of the invalidity of any particular portion thereof.
 
some have suggested that this section be removed:
(section) 1.(b)
"The County of Lake shall encourage and cooperate with people exercising the rights described in section 1 in every way available, and individuals exercising such rights in effort to grow food for their own consumption shall be exempt from paying for the portion of their water use that goes to water such food gardens, and such exemptions are to be determined based on garden size and the reasonable amount of water it takes to maintain such, and also based on the physical increase in water usage that exceeds the normal average water usage of the particular household without a food garden."


its not meant for any commercial ops, only food for personal use, in other words not involved in commerce...
the grape growers and other commercial ag get big subsidies on water usage here while we who are growing our own food at home are getting stabbed and robbed over our rates, so much so that most folks cant afford the water for food gardens in my town...so idk, its a tough one...
truly do appreciate your input, if you think it should drop the water sec or it could be written differently or if you have any other probs with it tell me now cause i need to be turning it in this week, thanks...

http://www.lakeconews.com/index.php...-extends-current-rates-temporarily&Itemid=197
 
well todays the day i am planning on turning in this initiative to the county elections dept, then they have 15 days to react by either constructing a summery and delivering it back for sig gathering to commence, or they will reject it out right based on the conflict that would arise between state and county law...
either way i just wanted to ask one more time for any last minute input if anyone thinks it would be better worded some other way...
thanks...
 
after much contemplation we decided to cut the complimentary water section...to controversial lol...

(section) 1.(b)
"The County of Lake shall encourage and cooperate with people exercising the rights described in section 1 in every way available, and individuals exercising such rights in effort to grow food for their own consumption shall be exempt from paying for the portion of their water use that goes to water such food gardens, and such exemptions are to be determined based on garden size and the reasonable amount of water it takes to maintain such, and also based on the physical increase in water usage that exceeds the normal average water usage of the particular household without a food garden. "
 
You might want to examine your "right to posess seeds". This will cause a problem with the GMO manufactures if not specific enough.
 
You might want to examine your "right to posess seeds". This will cause a problem with the GMO manufactures if not specific enough.

i know lol...sh! :D
just got back from the county elections division and things are looking even better then i had anticipated because apparently the county council does not have the authority to keep it off the ballot, and the only one who can is a judge and that would take the county to file suit against it, which is perfect because either way we will be changing the local discussion about the issue...suck on that monsanto :D lets go to court and make a fed case out of a human rights declaration lol...its way over due...


[video=youtube;mevxenJ6Mtc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mevxenJ6Mtc[/video]
 
You might want to examine your "right to posess seeds". This will cause a problem with the GMO manufactures if not specific enough.

ps...tried giving you a rep star but got this...'You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to canndo again.'
 
we are at crunch time for turning this in, so if anyone has editing or other suggestions, now is the time to please bring them forward, thanks.
below is the revised version (have made some major changes), but I've also been wondering if we should include definitions for the word "needs" from "to be used for their own needs", and the word "inquiries" from section 2.(b)?


----'Freedom to Grow Plants' Initiative- Ordinance 11564----
Whereas in the State of California, the people of the County of Lake do hereby find and declare that:
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for people to reaffirm and reestablish the fundamental human rights with which they are naturally endowed, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's origins entitle them, and to recognize a decent respect to for the opinions of humankind, requires that they should declare the causes which compel them to come forward toward the reestablishment of those rights.
We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all humans beings are created equal. That human beings are naturally endowed with certain Rights, and that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to re-declare and reestablish the inherent human rights that would intrinsically correct such governmental negligence, and to reconstitute such in a form as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
Therefore, in accordance with the 9th amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America,
Amendment IX:
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.",
and also in accordance with the California State Constitution's Article 1 Declaration of Rights, Section 21.: ..."This declaration of rights may not be construed to impair or deny others retained by the people.",
and, also as consistent with County of Lake Ordinance No. 2267 in relation to private property rights, and,
whereas disregard and contempt for certain human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of humankind, and, whereas in a world which human beings endeavor to enjoy freedom of speech and belief, and where freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of peoples everywhere, be it here proclaimed that it has become necessary to reaffirm and specifically re-constitute the self evident inherent freedom to grow and use plants as described herein:
(Section 1.)
That human beings are naturally endowed with the fundamental right to have and grow the naturally occurring plants of this earth, and the naturally occurring seeds thereof, to be used for their own needs as individuals in pursuit of life and in effort to live,
And that such basic human rights have been recognized and acknowledged to exist and that these rights are held in perpetuity even outside of the constitutional responsibility of a government to protect an individual's right to engage in commerce.
(Section) 1.(a)
That all County of Lake residents who exercise the rights described in section 1., and are compliant with section 2.(a), and are gardening outside (outdoors) or in green houses (and not withstanding any generally applicable urgency ordinance(s) specifically relating to water conservation), are, as accorded in the paragraphs above, necessarily exempt from any County permitting or other County ordinances that would limit an individual's home gardening efforts in conjunction with section 1.
(Section) 2.
Should neighbor complaints that are not related to section 2.(a), or that are not related to a specific medically verifiable toxic health risk to the public arise as an official complaint to the County as a result of an individual(s) exercising the rights as described in section 1., (and not withstanding any effected party choosing to seek remedy and or reparations by way of litigation through civil proceedings), all the effected parties shall be directed to mediation provided for by the County of Lake, and if resolution between the effected parties cannot be achieved in a reasonable effort to mediate (to be determined by the appointed mediator), the effected parties shall then continue mediation at their own expense (to be equally divided between the effected parties) until a resolution between the parties can be agreed upon, or until one of the effected parties withdraws from the mediation.
(Section) 2.(a)
That All who exercise the rights described in section 1., shall take reasonable care to prevent environmental destruction, and are responsible to mitigate any possible foreseen negative impacts on the natural environments, and all persons who neglect such practices shall be subject to the authority designated under section 2.(b) herein, but such remedies are to be used to help individuals come into compliance with this section and not to unreasonably burden individuals who exercise the rights described in section 1.
(Section) 2.(b)
That the County of Lake Environmental Health Department shall administer over individual circumstances that may arise related to section 2. and section 2.(a), herein, but all such administrative authority and compliance inquiries shall be restricted to circumstances where a verifiable neighbor (or resident of the county) complaint in writing and signed by the complainant has been officially registered with the county.
(Section) 3.
That All County, State and Federal criminal laws existing in conflict with individual's exercising the human rights as described in section 1., (and not withstanding an individual in violation of using illegal gardening chemicals, including but not limited to, certain pesticides, herbicides, fungicides and fertilizers), are to be set aside unless it can be determined that the individual circumstance is occurring within the context of 'commerce' related activities as defined herein, or if an individual's violations of Section 2.(a) herein are to the extent of violating a criminal statute.
For the express purposes of this document the word "commerce" shall be taken to mean:
"The buying and selling of goods or services in any form, and in direct reference to the exchange of United States currency (or other such legally recognized tender) for such goods or services."
(Section) 3.(a)
If any provision of this Initiative or the application thereof to any person or circumstance is held invalid, such invalidity shall not affect other provisions or applications of the Initiative which can be given effect without the invalid provision or application, and to this end the provisions of this Initiative are severable. The People of the County of Lake hereby declare that we would have adopted this Initiative irrespective of the invalidity of any particular portion thereof.
 
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