IF you are new to LED and want help choosing what to buy, POST HERE!

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nomofatum

nomofatum

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Greengenes707 said:
I'm interested where you get your average grow figure....seems pulled from somewhere. If it is true...then there is a nice micro grow sub forum for them.
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I just look at all the grow journals and posts asking for help. So far I have reviewed hundreds of different journals and help threads, only a few have been larger than my 32 sqft. Seems like we need 3 sizes big (> 200 sqft), medium/small (2-200sqft), and short (less than 50" height) for lighting recommendations. Big would be ranked on g/w(or g/w/day), medium/small would be ranked on g/sqft (or g/sqft/day), and short would be ranked on g/cubic foot (g/cf/day). That way we are looking at the most important figure for each grow type.

200 sqft may not be the line, I just picked that for no reason.
 
nomofatum

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
keysareme said:
Hey man thanks, I value what you've said, it's good insight for me to know what it is worth, I have sent a message offering $300 shipped, so thank you I will update.
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Leaving a trail man, I'm not a fan of linking to individual auctions that don't have multiple buyers, seems like cookie crumbs someone could follow.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

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Heavy Consumer said:
The value of that metric would depend entirely on how sexy one's wife were.
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HA! You'll neeeeever know. Its not like I was going to let you watch. And why wouldn't my sexiness matter too?

We are already making this more complicated: Liters per nookie-degrees of wife's hotness

The perfect metric is a chimera.
 
Greengenes707

Greengenes707

Well-Known Member
I'm done. I said my piece. You're obviously an expert on leds and growing.
Either make whatever new concept you want(cause talking about it aint getting things done)...or work on your own growing instead. Since you obviously know how to determine a sucresful light...I would focus on the latter. Maybe you'll have some results to show in the end...or are you already jumping off the led ship.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Greengenes707 said:
I'm done. I said my piece. You're obviously an expert on leds and growing.
Either make whatever new concept you want(cause talking about it aint getting things done)...or work on your own growing instead. Since you obviously know how to determine a sucresful light...I would focus on the latter. Maybe you'll have some results to show in the end...or are you already jumping off the led ship.
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jeez, sorry about that.
I would never have considered doing a DIY LED light if not for the information so generously offered on this board. I'm in the process of obtaining material along the lines of Gaius's Gangatica, so there is no new concept in the works, just a noob trying to pull together a system that he is happy with. I will be asking questions on this board in the future and your advice will be appreciated if you choose to give it. And yeah, I will have results eventually if I keep at it. In part due to your and others help, in part because the LED horticultural lighting system is a great idea whose time is coming and in part, well there are lots of parts.
Whatever I said that offended, it was not meant that way.
 
crazyhazey

crazyhazey

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any suggestions for a lamp thatll do well in a 2x2 or 4x4 tent?

also do they make good leds that are more like bulbs or would that be something id have to build myself?
 
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az2000

Well-Known Member
crazyhazey said:
any suggestions for a lamp thatll do well in a 2x2 or 4x4 tent?

also do they make good leds that are more like bulbs or would that be something id have to build myself?
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The question of what's "best" for your space has a few variables. The first is: What is leading you to LED? Energy efficiency? Heat reduction? Low-cost fixtures found on eBay? IMO, the only productive use cases are energy efficiency (and lower electrical use), but this requires a significant up-front expense. About $800 more for a 4x4 tent than the inexpensive eBay fixtures. If you grow in a short space, some of the inexpensive eBay fixtures (the ones with 3w diodes mounted on white backboards which allow minimal distance between the fixture and canopy) are a legitimate choice. But, you can do about the same thing with T5HO. In any other circumstance (taller space, limited budget), CMH is typically recommended.

Regarding LED "lightbulbs." CaptainMorgan did a thread growing with Cree A19s sold at Home Depot. I distilled everything I learned from that into this article. Cree also makes a more powerful/concentrated 18w PAR38 flood/spot. I made a fixture to hold 5 of those as top-lighting for taller plants (in a taller space). I haven't grown a plant with it yet. It was just an idea I had after thinking about the various ways to use the A19 bulbs.

These bulbs are slightly more efficient than T5HO (which is 92 lumens per watt. By comparison, CFL is in the 65-75 range.). The Cree A19s and PAR38s are in the 90-100 range. There are "lightbulbs" using SMD5730 diodes that are supposed to be in the 105-115 range. But, these may suffer from the same supply chain problems that plague Chinese import Epi-whatever fixtures. (After hearing about them, one person ordered a couple but they're very dim, draw only 3w instead of 15w. I'm waiting to receive my order.). Either way, there definitely will be more efficient "lightbulbs" soon.
 
nomofatum

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
crazyhazey said:
any suggestions for a lamp thatll do well in a 2x2 or 4x4 tent?

also do they make good leds that are more like bulbs or would that be something id have to build myself?
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There are many options that will do well in a 2x2 or 4x4 tent. You need to tell us more about your priorities and conditions. Where are you getting intake air? Will you be running in the summer? What are winters like where you are? And choose one that describes you: Who cares about the cost. I'm willing to pay more but only if it makes more or better bud. I'm broke, help me get the cheapest setup that will get good results. And finally, is it 2x2 or is it 4x4, you clearly need four times the light for one of those options.

Also on the bulb question, yes you can get the LED bulbs in 3000k and 6500k and use them. One of the most common newb grows is a CFL grow in something like a 2x2 space.
 
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Bad Karma

Bad Karma

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az2000 said:
The question of what's "best" for your space has a few variables. The first is: What is leading you to LED? Energy efficiency? Heat reduction? Low-cost fixtures found on eBay? IMO, the only productive use cases are energy efficiency (and lower electrical use), but this requires a significant up-front expense. About $800 more for a 4x4 tent than the inexpensive eBay fixtures. If you grow in a short space, some of the inexpensive eBay fixtures (the ones with 3w diodes mounted on white backboards which allow minimal distance between the fixture and canopy) are a legitimate choice. But, you can do about the same thing with T5HO. In any other circumstance (taller space, limited budget), CMH is typically recommended.

Regarding LED "lightbulbs." CaptainMorgan did a thread growing with Cree A19s sold at Home Depot. I distilled everything I learned from that into this article. Cree also makes a more powerful/concentrated 18w PAR38 flood/spot. I made a fixture to hold 5 of those as top-lighting for taller plants (in a taller space). I haven't grown a plant with it yet. It was just an idea I had after thinking about the various ways to use the A19 bulbs.

These bulbs are slightly more efficient than T5HO (which is 92 lumens per watt. By comparison, CFL is in the 65-75 range.). The Cree A19s and PAR38s are in the 90-100 range. There are "lightbulbs" using SMD5730 diodes that are supposed to be in the 105-115 range. But, these may suffer from the same supply chain problems that plague Chinese import Epi-whatever fixtures. (After hearing about them, one person ordered a couple but they're very dim, draw only 3w instead of 15w. I'm waiting to receive my order.). Either way, there definitely will be more efficient "lightbulbs" soon.
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az2000, I know you're trying to help, but you've got to stop recommending LED lights with the white backboard. They may allow for a closer distance between the light, and the canopy, but that's because their really shitty lights. They lack intensity, efficiency, and are literally one of the worst designs ever for an LED light. We may recommend Vipar as a cheap entry level option, but only the Nova/Apollo, and reflector, models. Please realize that you're setting people up to fail with bad advice.
 
JimmyIndica

JimmyIndica

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Half my 5x 10 setup. The Strawberry Banana, Honey Bananas, Truberry, Fifth Element, Purple Og 18 are coming along fine In there homemade drain to waste in cocogro/perlite. When the roots hit the bottom they will go in there 4-5 gallon root pouches. No progrow yet just 2ml cal mag,1 ml hydroguard,1 ml liquid karma,1 ml silica blast. I gave them a pinch of zho from rooter to 6 inchers.This run is with the KIND ,but the other side will have Blackdog xl750 next run! LED and fruity strains!!! Gotta love it!
 
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az2000

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Bad Karma said:
Please realize that you're setting people up to fail with bad advice.
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I disagree. I got 1g/w from the 3w, white-backboard variety of Chinese epi-whatever fixture in a 4' tall space. It seems to be about the same efficiency as T5HO. Similar deficiencies such as heat, low penetration. Similar positives: can be close to the canopy, which is valuable for short spaces.

I don't believe there is a one-size fits all solution. I think they all have an "it depends" qualifier. I'd recommend T5HO before the 3w white-backboard simply because it would have a longer lifespan (modular components that can be easily replaced, such as the bulbs themselves). I'd recommend the Cree bulbs before that. But, the 3w, white-background variety of Chinese epi-whatever fixtures wouldn't be the worst choice someone could make. It would do well.

IMO, the worst choice are the rebranded Chinese epi-whatever fixtures sold at a premium with a lot of glammed up web-pages to make it look like a domestically-produced light. (Blackdog, HydroGrowLED, Kind, Lush, Growblu, et. al.). Next worst choice would be using a Chinese epi-whatever for taller grows when a CMH would be a better option. But, down in the short-grow level, the white-backboard lights seem suitable. The differences between them and T5HO (and Cree lightbulbs) becomes less.
 
nomofatum

nomofatum

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az2000 said:
I disagree. I got 1g/w from the 3w, white-backboard variety of Chinese epi-whatever fixture in a 4' tall space. It seems to be about the same efficiency as T5HO. Similar deficiencies such as heat, low penetration. Similar positives: can be close to the canopy, which is valuable for short spaces.

I don't believe there is a one-size fits all solution. I think they all have an "it depends" qualifier. I'd recommend T5HO before the 3w white-backboard simply because it would have a longer lifespan (modular components that can be easily replaced, such as the bulbs themselves). I'd recommend the Cree bulbs before that. But, the 3w, white-background variety of Chinese epi-whatever fixtures wouldn't be the worst choice someone could make. It would do well.

IMO, the worst choice are the rebranded Chinese epi-whatever fixtures sold at a premium with a lot of glammed up web-pages to make it look like a domestically-produced light. (Blackdog, HydroGrowLED, Kind, Lush, Growblu, et. al.). Next worst choice would be using a Chinese epi-whatever for taller grows when a CMH would be a better option. But, down in the short-grow level, the white-backboard lights seem suitable. The differences between them and T5HO (and Cree lightbulbs) becomes less.
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I'm adding CMH after you prompted me to look at it. I think the spectrum looks great, ... but still wouldn't put it at the top of the list unless you can find it for a decent price. At $500 per fixture at 315w, it can't compete with other options (DIY Epistar, DIY Cree, HPS/MH, maybe a few others) unless we look real long term. I found them at about $265 but can't help you guys replicate that. I figured if I'm less than amazed I can just sell them for a profit.
 
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Bad Karma

Bad Karma

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az2000 said:
I don't believe there is a one-size fits all solution. I think they all have an "it depends" qualifier. I'd recommend T5HO before the 3w white-backboard simply because it would have a longer lifespan (modular components that can be easily replaced, such as the bulbs themselves). I'd recommend the Cree bulbs before that. But, the 3w, white-background variety of Chinese epi-whatever fixtures wouldn't be the worst choice someone could make. It would do well.
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Okay, you just said that you'd recommend T5, and Cree bulbs, before the white backboard junk. So if they're coming in 3rd place out of that group, they're clearly not very good. I've tried the white backboard junk, so have many of the others on here, that's why it's never recommended by anyone. You are the only exception to that rule, and the reason you seem to be doing so is to validate your own purchase, and feel relevant. Everyone likes it when we share our grow experiences, we love to read it, and look over the pics. But you're giving bad advice, plain, and simple. You're telling people to spend money on less efficent, and less effective, lights; when there are much cheaper, and better, options available.
 
nomofatum

nomofatum

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Bad Karma said:
Okay, you just said that you'd recommend T5, and Cree bulbs, before the white backboard junk. So if they're coming in 3rd place out of that group, they're clearly not very good. I've tried the white backboard junk, so have many of the others on here, that's why it's never recommended by anyone. You are the only exception to that rule, and the reason you seem to be doing so is to validate your own purchase, and feel relevant. Everyone likes it when we share our grow experiences, we love to read it, and look over the pics. But you're giving bad advice, plain, and simple. You're telling people to spend money on less efficent, and less effective, lights; when there are much cheaper, and better, options available.
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You can't justify any of the LED fixtures with that logic. They are all too expensive when compared to the competition and with the exception of short grow boxes they have no advantage. LED can't compete with HPS/MH when you consider both cost and efficiency. The only exceptions are DIY LED (way cheaper) and short grow boxes where HPS/MH are not suitable.
 
crazyhazey

crazyhazey

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i have thought of getting some HO t5s(likely with different types of aquarium bulbs for the specific nm of light) but ive been hearing lots of good stuff about LEDs capabilities to create perfect spectrum and provide a good amount of UV, it seems some new lamps are making the low yield issue obsolete but it seems many still have the issue with t5s and cfls alone.

im trying to stay within the range of $200-$400, and im much more likely going to be in something like a 2x2, if i make some modifications to the space i could probably get up to 2x4. my ventilation is adequate, im running a 4 bulb t5 with 2 t12s on the sides and im not experiencing heat issues, i would probably be running these year round but my space should remain in the 75-80 degree range.

and its great to hear they make LED bulbs, really wanna try a LED vert grow. thanks for the suggestions people, wish we could still give out rep ):
 
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az2000

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Bad Karma said:
Okay, you just said that you'd recommend T5, and Cree bulbs, before the white backboard junk. So if they're coming in 3rd place out of that group, they're clearly not very good.
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A g/w is pretty good in my book. Certainly not "junk." I stated why I'd recommend Cree lightbulbs (more efficient) or T5HO (longer-lasting, serviceable). But, some people may not be into stringing up all the extension cords and sockets. Others may not want T5HO. An inexpensive 3w epi-whatever (Chinese import) fixture wouldn't be a huge investment, wouldn't use much more electricity, and would grow about as good *in that particular circumstance* where the plant is short and there aren't other options. (Maybe a Hans Panel. Not sure what the vertical distance requirement is for it.).

I agree for taller plants in a 7' space, Chinese epi-whatever fixtures would be a bigger mistake. CMH would be good (if they can't afford $1200 in high-quality LEDs, don't want a DIY COB challenge.).

So, just because I said I'd recommend 2 things before a 3w white-backboard epi-whatever fixture (costing about $120), that doesn't mean I see a huge difference between any of the 3 options. Being modestly better (T5HO, in terms of serviceability, a lifelong investment) doesn't mean the lessor choice is tremendously inferior in terms of what it will produce. I wouldn't look at it as a long-term investment. The light may be disposable. But, someone may only want to do 2 grows before investing in something better. That's their call. In that case, it will work.

That's why I prefaced my response by saying there are a few variables which affect what's best for any individual.
 
borbor

borbor

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I want to get a small light to supplement a 315 watt metal halide, not very much wattage, I just want to put a little bit of light on the side in a different spectrum, I've been looking into either an a51 rw75 or a kessil h380. I only hear good things about a51, and I don't hear bad things about kessil, it is a bit more expensive though. It seems like such a small light, like smaller than a flashlight, would one of them really add enough light? The small size would be a great advantage, kind of the only reason I can see to go with the kessil over the a51. I'm just gonna be in a 3'x3' tent, I know the cmh should do fine by itself but I want to give it a little boost in flower, the a51 would get a little crowded in the tent, but would fit.
 
nomofatum

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
borbor said:
I want to get a small light to supplement a 315 watt metal halide, not very much wattage, I just want to put a little bit of light on the side in a different spectrum, I've been looking into either an a51 rw75 or a kessil h380. I only hear good things about a51, and I don't hear bad things about kessil, it is a bit more expensive though. It seems like such a small light, like smaller than a flashlight, would one of them really add enough light? The small size would be a great advantage, kind of the only reason I can see to go with the kessil over the a51. I'm just gonna be in a 3'x3' tent, I know the cmh should do fine by itself but I want to give it a little boost in flower, the a51 would get a little crowded in the tent, but would fit.
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You are referring to a 315w Ceramic metal halide 3100k? If so the a51 is half good, the cool white is good for you, but the red is redundant with your CMH. The kessil is too low power/price/performance. I would recommend something with cool white/6500k and UVB (uvb bulbs should also emit UVA and deep blue/purples.) The 6500k can be a regular MH, Florescent/CFL, or LED. The UVB is only available in CFL/T5HO/T8/T12 currently, looks like 2015 has a LED with it coming out.
 
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