IF you are new to LED and want help choosing what to buy, POST HERE!

Wow... So I've been away from the site for some time but still am a knowledgeable LED user. So are people steering clear of cheap Chinese panels these days? I ask because that all I have used going on the 4th year now and have it down to a science that gives me pretty much 1 GPW on average, so tell me are expensive panels capable of achieving much more then a gram per watt and if so what are they capable of these days?

I totally understand that cheep panels have a larger failure rate and may not end up lasting that long but at $120 for 100-3watt diodes with a draw of 185w they are very appealing to me. I have crappy blackstars that are still working fine 3 years later so even with the failure rate the math all worked out to make them a great buy at the time, now you can get much better panels at even half the cost of them.

I am aware that anyone who grows in bulk would want reliability first but for people growing a few plants at a time I don't see how you can go wrong with the cheep panels.

In case anyone has doubts about my earlier post #2429, I copied this from StarDustSailor's thread


Spectral effects of light-emitting diodes on plant growth and development: The importance of green and blue light


American Geophysical Union, Fall Meeting 2011, abstract #B31E-0371
Light-emitting diodes (LEDs) are an emerging technology for plant growth lighting. Due to their narrow spectral output, colored LEDs provide many options for studying the spectral effects of light on plants. Early on, efficient red LEDs were the primary focus of photobiological research; however, subsequent studies have shown that normal plant growth and development cannot be achieved under red light without blue light supplementation. More recent studies have shown that red and blue (RB) LEDs supplemented with green light increase plant dry mass. This is because green light transmits more effectively through the leaf canopy than red and blue light, thus illuminating lower plant leaves and increasing whole-plant photosynthesis. Red, green and blue (RGB) light can be provided by either a conventional white light source (such as fluorescent lights), a combination of RGB LEDs, or from recently developed white LEDs. White LEDs exceed the efficiency of fluorescent lights and have a comparable broad spectrum. As such, they have the potential to replace fluorescent lighting for growth-chamber-based crop production both on Earth and in space.

Here we report the results of studies on the effects of three white LED types (warm, neutral and cool) on plant growth and development compared to combinations of RB and RGB LEDs. Plants were grown under two constant light intensities (200 and 500 μmol m-2 s-1). Temperature, environmental conditions and root-zone environment were uniformly maintained across treatments. Phytochrome photoequilbria and red/far-red ratios were similar among treatments and were comparable to conventional fluorescent lights. Blue light had a significant effect on both plant growth (dry mass gain) and development (dry mass partitioning). An increase in the absolute amount (μmol m-2 s-1) of blue light from 0-80 μmol m-2 s-1 resulted in a decrease in stem elongation, independent of the light intensity. However, an increase in the relative amount (%) of blue light caused a decrease in specific leaf area (leaf area per unit leaf mass). As the relative amount of blue light increased, chlorophyll concentration per unit leaf area increased, but chlorophyll concentration per unit leaf mass remained constant. The relative amount of blue light increased total dry mass in some species while it remained constant in others. An increase in the fraction of green light increased dry mass in radish. Overall, white LEDs provided a more uniform spectral distribution, reduced stem elongation and leaf area, and maintained or increased dry mass as compared to RB and RGB LEDs. Cool white LEDs are more electrically efficient than the other two white LEDs and have sufficient blue light for normal plant growth and development at both high and low light intensities. Compared to sunlight, cool white LEDs are perhaps deficient in red light and may therefore benefit from supplementation with red LEDs. Future studies will be conducted to test this hypothesis. These results have significant implication for LADA growth chambers which are currently used for vegetable production on the International Space Station.






Fulltext Article : http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publication...b__4124704.pdf

PetFlora said:

In case anyone has doubts about my earlier post #2429, I copied this from StarDustSailor's thread

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Interesting article. I've said all along that these chinese LG panels I'm using are great for veg. They use a lot of blue/white/green when in veg mode, only a few reds sprinkled in, the bloom switch turns/adds all the reds. Also backs up my thoughts that the bloom switch on these should be reserved for after the stretch. After a week on I turned them off in my current grow as they actually slowed their growth, which makes sense according to that article. In theory, according to the article, supplementing these with cool white LED (like the LED tubes I haven't used yet?) should prove to be even better in veg. Would like to find something more related to flowering to see if supplementing them with more warm whites would increase their production in flower (that seems to be the theory right? warmer whites in flower to increase bud production?). I have a bunch of LED tubes I haven't put together into a "panel" yet, think I'll use those in the next round and supplement with 6500k in veg, 2700k in flower to see how they supplement alongside the LG panels. Haven't bought the 2700k tubes yet, would you suggest 2700k or another white spectrum for side/supplemental flowering?

PF, could you distill your most recent posts into a synopsis?

I think you're saying that we're getting closer to truly effective LED with the mixes of whites and reds that have been showing up lately on some panels like Apache and A-51.

Do you think the 2014 A-51 XGS190 (all Cree XT-E 3700's) is an evolutionary dead-end?

? Maybe you just need to reread #2429 a few more times. I have to do this quite often when reading the DIY threads

But yes, you seem to have gotten the gist of it.

As to an evolutionary dead end, well, emitter tech will continue to improve + huge jumps soon in lpw, and overall efficiency

As stated by StarDustSailor, most panels suffer from low quality deep reds, including all red panels.

Almost 2 years ago, I was informed and often re-quote (i.e. 630nm red is ~95% of the PSR of 660nm, AND they currently still have ~20-30% greater radiometric efficiency - as well as being cheaper than the deep reds - so there's more 'bang for the buck'):

So the good news for those paying attention, WW will do just fine, you just need enough of it

Mellodrama said:

PF, could you distill your most recent posts into a synopsis?

I think you're saying that we're getting closer to truly effective LED with the mixes of whites and reds that have been showing up lately on some panels like Apache and A-51.

Do you think the 2014 A-51 XGS190 (all Cree XT-E 3700's) is an evolutionary dead-end?

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I agree, but how are u going to get the par without the wattage? If u notice on my posts, I like to go all the way to 3ft. The spectrum is a given because without it the growth would be whacked. Umoles is everything but how are u going to deliver it? I've always had my doubts bout the cob regardless of makes except Illumitex.[/QUOTE]

I found an interesting article where Philips developed an LED tube at 200 lumen per watt at 2700K Check it out here... http://www.extremetech.com/electronics/153123-philips-200-lumens-per-watt-prototype-led-lamp-is-the-worlds-most-efficient. If I am reading this right a HID 110,000 lumen 1000w bulb would run 110 lumen per watt. Most of us know the results of growing with HID.

FranJan said:

+1 MelloD. Monkeychains is just full of it and anyone buying his shtick deserves to be taken. It's the only way some people learn, yours included. And E raserhead you should be ashamed for encouriging this parasite.

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Your ignorance is amazing, bud. Really. He didn't encourage me. He agreed and confirm what I said. So how come that doesn't make him a parasite. By the way, grow up and stop calling people names like an idot.

Where am I said:

I agree, but how are u going to get the par without the wattage? If u notice on my posts, I like to go all the way to 3ft. The spectrum is a given because without it the growth would be whacked. Umoles is everything but how are u going to deliver it? I've always had my doubts bout the cob regardless of makes except Illumitex.

I found an interesting article where Philips developed an LED tube at 200 lumen per watt at 2700K Check it out here... http://www.extremetech.com/electronics/153123-philips-200-lumens-per-watt-prototype-led-lamp-is-the-worlds-most-efficient. If I am reading this right a HID 110,000 lumen 1000w bulb would run 110 lumen per watt. Most of us know the results of growing with HID.

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A 1000w hid hps bulb puts out 140000-150000 lumens initially .............cree mk-r (nw/cw??)puts out 200lm per watt(top bin @ 350ma) and is not a prototype

Mellodrama said:

monkey -

Wow, I ask a few questions and you go into a histrionic rage.

RIU has a sub-forum in the Cannabis Cafe if you're into self-fellatio. Probably best to keep it over there.

Of course you've owned a car dealership. It's all coming together now. That would explain the Lambo for sure.

All of that's just a sideshow.

The fact is you latched onto a first-time poster and immediately suggested a private discussion where you'd "recommend" a light that would blow away all the competition at 1/4 the cost.

Well? We're waiting. How do we find out more about this killer light? Or do we all have to PM you individually to get in on this fantastic deal?

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or make and repeated stated this. When I was asked for a recommendation, I rather answer it by PN since posting it would be pushing it wouldn't. WHat's up with the double standards here when everyone is asking for suggestions since they're new to the industry. I tried to educated people on how this business works in hopes to save them a lot of grief from all the bs marketing as most other posters but yet I'm demonize for some reasons. Yes, maybe I sounded a little enthusiastic bout the deal cause if u know anything bout par and umoles, those numbers will run with all of the top names now and even beat most of them as EH even confirmed this. But why is that tell me that he's not a salesman and I am. I never offered anything for sale, sir. If you've ever follow my posts, I don't recommend makes, I talk about things like why we should consider moving from r/g/b to the whites and all the things that this thread's currently discussing not trying to sell a panel here and there for what. Do u really think I'm willing to put up with this crap for a few panels. I never meant to disclose anything bout me, but I was called a chinese person, pitching chinese cheap panels, and best of all uneducated and speak "hood" jive so I responded accordingly. It doesn't mean if I spent my whole life achieving what I did and then be persecuted for my success and worst questioned and ridicule without verification. U want any more verification for any of my other bs? I'll gladly oblige and smile doing so because the truth, the truth. Convenient or not.

PetFlora said:

Here's what I know and have proven to a point...

Red and Blue lights were not developed for mj, but for other horticultural uses. The fact that someone jumped on R/B leds as a selling opportunity to mj growers (and used phony/BS to market them) has set led development for mj back a few years. It's been an uphill fight to reeducate people ever since.

The strangest part is, mj growers have used WHITE lights SUCCESSFULLY for decades. Their primary issues being heat and electrical consumption. But hardly anyone mimicked them

Our beloved MJ (a weed) will grow under R/B, BUT, it won't produce all the goodness that it is capable of, and quite likely future generations of mj grown from those seeds will begin to show signs deficiencies- much like people being predisposed to illnesses that their parents had.

Quite simply, a cooler spectral balance (but still having some red) is preferable for vegging. My hot5 6500s makes for tight nodes, and the 2900s make for very nice nuggz, but so did the plants I grew under 2 x 90w ufo prototypes (3500/5000K= ~ 4250K) that Jeff gifted me- full disclosure required.

Once buds developed, I added 4 @ 3000k ~ 16w 4 ft tubes, from previous experimenting. The plants looked fantastic until I screwed up when I added 200ppm of Sea Crop minerals, in addition to my full spectrum Hydroponic Research V+B nutrient. Within 2 days, the leafs curled up and dried out beyond recovery. I quickly dumped and flushed, and still ended up with a nice result, just not as much as I would have.

So, I have personal evidence that a well balanced light/panel should be primarily NW (~ 5000K) but with an extra o/o switch to add ~ 30% red in the form of 580-650 (~ 3000K). IMHO, the jury is still out on 660 as most 660 emitters suck, and >90% of PSR happens < 660

Hmmm, sounds a lot like A51. And clearly Apache Tech produces fantastic results, though I am not certain whether they have a red switch

Now, obviously the quality of the emitters matters, but we can get by with decent quality whites, as long a the spectral balance is there

Most of you reading this thread know that there are some awesome DIY grows in process using only NW + WW high quality cobs

Here's an awesome thread that Star Dust Sailor recently started: https://www.rollitup.org/led-other-lighting/814057-turning-coal-into-ok-silver.html

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Hey Pet great info... I have been growing with LED for almost 3 years. I found that if you supplemented the predominately red LED light with 2700K and 6500K cfl's definitely made a difference.. Your post is spot on in my experience..

monkeychief said:

YES! Sounds like christmas tree lights, especially strips. Cool!

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Thank you my daughters boyfriend bought them to light up the kitchen cabinets. I will look into other options.

medicinehuman said:

Hans panel (Bonsai) has high quality CREE LEDs. Watts are not the total picture, I have an 80watt Pineapple Chunk grow going now, Vegging on 38 watts. If they last a long time is the big question for me.

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Hey MED how large is the lady are you growing under that light?

PSUAGRO. said:

A 1000w hid hps bulb puts out 140000-150000 lumens initially .............cree mk-r (nw/cw??)puts out 200lm per watt(top bin @ 350ma) and is not a prototype

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Par, intensity, and wattage is everything cause without it, means failure. It's ovvious the "I" in HID is it's magic. Not fancy, bells&whistles or wishful 1/10-1/3 of HID's wattage. Spec. is a given as most legit red and white spec. are fine.

monkey, before I respond to your godawful blathering in Post #2449, I need to know if you're highly educated or highly medicated. I don't want to come off as being cruel to someone who's got chronic medical or mental problems.

Where am I said:

Hey Pet great info... I have been growing with LED for almost 3 years. I found that if you supplemented the predominately red LED light with 2700K and 6500K cfl's definitely made a difference.. Your post is spot on in my experience..

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If u follow my posts I've been doing a lot of testing with the white spec. since I bought the Apache and found the spec. spot on. It actually mimics the actual par curve very closely and gives u the advantage of all the bands in between vs. the red spec. which targets only peaks therefore; they would have to compensate for the all the bands in between. The whites, especially cool-whites are the most efficient temps and peaks in the blue/green, which provides better canopy penetration and promote overall growth and plant mass. Since the cool-white like adequate reds, 630nm reds are used to supplement the shortage. THe 639's are also the most readily absorbed band out of the reds as to why Apache and also A51 with their last 2 spec. I think there's a misconception on how much reds are needed since if plants are meant to have that much reds to reach full genetic potential, then our sunlight would be that pinkish, red glow that our panels emit. I've tested a lot of white spec. combo's vs. the standard 11+ band red spec. and found out it produces much more robust growth vs. the red spec., especially during the first 2 weeks of shooting/stretching. There's a visible difference in the amount of lateral and overall growth vs. traditional reds. The nice thing bout leds is that u can have mulitple panels with different spec. configs. enabling u to tune the spec. according to your needs in relationship to the growth period similar to using MH to finish for the extra uv's with HID's. Apache started the white spec. that was dead-on so they never revised it since it's introduction 4yrs. ago. As u can see A51 started with their red spec., eventually moving towards 4500k/630's to currently going all 3700k WW. All of their spec. has too much stretching which is understandable since most lights are geared more for flowering.

Mellodrama said:

monkey, before I respond to your godawful blathering in Post #2449, I need to know if you're highly educated or highly medicated. I don't want to come off as being cruel to someone who's got chronic medical or mental problems.

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What do u think. lol. First thing u got right bout me. lol. Let's drop the nonsense and get on to discussing more useful topics as RIU is not the Jerry Springer Show so let's not make it so.

FranJan said:

+1 MelloD. Monkeychains is just full of it and anyone buying his shtick deserves to be taken. It's the only way some people learn, yours included. And E raserhead you should be ashamed for encouriging this parasite.

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I have read through this entire thread and I have not seen anything that MC has said that has not been correct... The law of physics doesn't change. It is no different than the automotive companies building the same vehicle in two different countries one that has a very advantageous labor cost but selling it for the same price as a domestically built vehicle. Thus lining their pockets...

Thanks Dawg for the advice. Now there's also the xgs190 from a51. It sure looks pretty. But is it better than the rw-150. Anyone?

Well, then, Where am I, PM monkey and maybe he'll let you in on that killer panel that he won't tell the rest of us about.

You don't have to go far to find monekyshines' BS. In Post #2455 he says, "As u can see A51 started with their red spec., eventually moving towards 4500k/630's to currently going all 3700k WW. All of their spec. has too much stretching which is understandable since most lights are geared more for flowering."

A-51's panels cause too much stretch because the lights are geared for flowering?? That's completely false. I've read numerous posts from A-51 owners who worry that the panels might be more geared towards veg, and perhaps not enough for flower. I own an XGS-190. Stretching has not been a problem. When I hang a 3000K light nearby it's distinctly redder than the XGS. monkey doesn't know a damn thing about A-51 panels but he can throw data around so that people think he's knowledgeable.

Mellodrama said:

Well, then, Where am I, PM monkey and maybe he'll let you in on that killer panel that he won't tell the rest of us about.

You don't have to go far to find monekyshines' BS. In Post #2455 he says, "As u can see A51 started with their red spec., eventually moving towards 4500k/630's to currently going all 3700k WW. All of their spec. has too much stretching which is understandable since most lights are geared more for flowering."

A-51's panels cause too much stretch because the lights are geared for flowering?? That's completely false. I've read numerous posts from A-51 owners who worry that the panels might be more geared towards veg, and perhaps not enough for flower. I own an XGS-190. Stretching has not been a problem. When I hang a 3000K light nearby it's distinctly redder than the XGS. monkey doesn't know a damn thing about A-51 panels but he can throw data around so that people think he's knowledgeable.

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Ok, I see the mentality here. FUnny, Those who know me knows damn well I'm currently testing them but that's ok, sir. What the hell do I want to sound knowledgeable for. Bragging rights? It's obvious this kind of mentality has gotten a lot of us humans killed. Can u please tell me where is all this animosity coming from? Is this the states or china where freedom of speech and expression means nothing... How is it that the title of this thread is and then not be able to get an answer. I think we should stop trying to play big brother and decide for others what we feel appropriate or not. Just when we any of us has the right to make decisions for others and insult their intelligence. Did it ever occurred to u that a guy like me who has nothing to do but to play with these things with a unlimited budget running around might be up to date on the best deals in the market. Especially who's read my posts or has had personal experiences with me will tell u that the last thing I need is to put up with this kind of nonsense. I despise politics and drama and yet life is full of this crap and unavoidable. This is such a sad display of human nature. Wake up peopl;e, there's mpore to life than confrontation and drama....