IF you are new to LED and want help choosing what to buy, POST HERE!

Pix help. Do you know what they're being driven at? Some LED strips, (I'm assuming strip cause you've got about 30+ feet of it), lights work, some are too small. I forgot their designations offhand. RGB also suffer as grow lights if they've got a 3 die design which, for now, can't be driven as hard because of cooling and a few other reasons, but some of those RGB LED movie lights are quite impressive. Chances are they won't make any difference, but maybe the plants will like party lights .

PSUAGRO. said:

This is early for me on a sunday.....lol........anyways, have you done a full run to harvest with these surexi modules???????????


Someone needs to get a monkey off his back!ha, oh yeah the chinese have great quality control now................need to buy their "fancy" welding masks PRONTO!!!

GENIUS...........lol

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Illumitex's pretty much the king and only cob type that actually works. THey're basically 16 1w chips running at .69% efficiency pullin 11w actual. Not cheap for sure since you would need 6 of their dual-bars for a 4x4 per the Rocky Mt. High set-up. At 24 chips per side x 6 = 144 total from each dual-bar, 6 x $650/pc. = $3900 to cover a 4x4. At 11w x 144 = 1584w total. By all means, please correct my math if I'm wrong. THe power saving will be in the terms of additional cooling, i.e. ac, fans, etc.. You can have the lightest best chassis in the world, but if u strap the most efficient 1 liter motor on there and try to run with a similar set-up with a 7liter monster in there, I think physics will determine the victor. This is a professional system that will outperform the HID's but also points out and debunk this myth bout using 1/4-1/3, or even worst 1/10 wattage of HID's and somehow defy the law of physics that even sunlight, which is the benchmark of all grow light source that is constant in intensity at any distance. But even with all that intensity, sunlight still not able to do much if it doesn't have direct contact with the canopy and morre iimportant the buds. This wil only result in undergrown, airy, cotton ball buds with no mass. One must consider why and what makes the HID so successful. My 2cnts is the "I" in HID that mimics the sun the best in terms of intensity. Intensity along with uv's will trigger the plant to increase resin production in effort to protect the buds. This is evident will high-altitude strains that receive more intense sunlight with more uv's. This is why I feel without intensity, nothing else matters since it the power, if u will, and will determine the rate of photosynthesis and growth. Acccording to my trials running from as little and foolish starting out with a 90w ufo that pulled 40w actual in a 2x2 as instructed that didn't turned out very well. I also ran as much as 1400w with 2 Blackdogs biggest mutt. That turned out super well obviously. The yield/density will vary according to the wattage applied. I also learned thru the years is that we must really pay attention to the inverse-square-law effect that will be detrimental to the intensity level as distance from canopy is increase. This fact also undermines the application of a single high-power units that might sound cool, but will cut u short of performance. A better approach would be to split the toal wattage up to as many units as possible to keep the girls directly in the main core coverage to minimize it's effect. For those who's not aware how detrimental, take a look at this actual example of par readings. 1216umoles@30cm, 415umoles@60cm, and 216umoles@90cm, respectfully.

Thank you for your understanding and confirmation there's hope for these cheap chinese direct factory units. No worries, nobody's gonna ride this monkey's back. It was a sad display of our species primal alpha-male syndrome when one joins a new group. It's obvious that we have a long ways yet in spiritual development cause we're still acting like a bunch of neanderthals. Funny how u agree there's hope for these cheap panels with no issues and I basically said the same thing and quickly triggered an unprovoked response. Can we all get along and debate issues in a civilize manner and see if we can help each other expand our knowledge on this subject and avoid the bs snake oils some of these rip-off's are offering?

To clear things up. My father fought commies in Nam, not only am I an american but I despise communism to the principle. One must not pass judgement or make false assuption especially accusing of ones ethnic background especially in a derogatory manner is not and will not be tolerated.

Eraserhead said:

Yes I have. I have been to the Cidly factory, Eshine factory and the Evergrow factory.

I've talked with all 3 places about their selection of chips and binning and parts numbers and encapsulation process. Because what I have seen 1st hand, I would never trust a Chinese factory to use their in-house selection of encapsulated diodes. I would much rather buy my diodes from Digikey or Mouser, this way I know the bin, the exact nanometer or kelvin, and the fact it is a genuine (insert name brand here), not some Chinese knockoff.

If I were just a customer that wanted to buy 1 or 2 panels, but otherwise not sell them to others in mass amounts, Evergrow panels like the Nova and Nova II are okay Chinese lights, just don't expect consistency between that weeks chips and last weeks or next weeks chips. They change all the time, they buy whatever they can get within certain parameters that they set for themselves, and buy accordingly. 1 week they may be using Epiled 620nm that has an efficiency of 175mW @ 350mA, the following week they may have an Epistar 628nm that has an efficiency of 125mW @ 350mA. Now, when a customer goes to buy a lamp with "630nm", you could get either, and they'll tell you it's the same. Same goes for their white LEDs, efficiency and kelvins will vary a lot.

Factories like Evergrow, Cidly, Eshine, Bysen, etc... They make their own diodes, they have the machines to encapsulate everything on-site. That is why every diode looks identical coming from China, they have a standard generic encapsulation machine. They order the chips from Epistar, Epiled and occasionally from Bridgelux and encapsulate the chips into their LED packaging.

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Forgot to asked u if you're in the business since u visited these factories and own a spectroradiometer. Like u I've visited CT, E-shine, and Bysen, Topline, and Cidly. Yes, I agree as with anything, one must approach with extreme caution, but I feel they have came a long ways in terms of ethics and code of conduct that's more acceptable to us. One must consider that if they can buy these chips for say Advanced or others the same top bin Crees or Osrams, why can't and wouldn't they provide the same chips to their other panels. So the question goes back to integrity and to think u can do better from just going brand-name and instead of going direct is a bit naive. These factories are not going anywhere as they're much bigger with larger budgets than your average us based resellers or private label makes. Again, I'm not trying to demonize the brand-names put simply pointing out a more cost-effective approach to the industry as long as u do your homework and buy from the right factories. I just feel unless u're getting a panel such as Apache, CLW, Kessil, and A51 if u can even consider them as us made or just assembled in usa of chinese parts. If this is true, why would u want to pay 3-4x as much for the exact same panel.. To say just by buying from a us based company will give u more buyer's security is wishful and very naive thinking.

I like China, it was a memorable time for me. Granted, I was there only on business and didn't get to have too much free time, but there were a few nights that I got to see what the locals do. Happy times for sure.

A51 used to ship from Shipwire in HK during most of 2012, and the early part of 2013, but went to exclusive USA shipping once the SGS hit the market.

monkeychief said:

I salute you, sir. You've been around. I used to spend a lot of time in "crazy town" Shenzhen running my building construction and granite company. Next time u go there try Queen's Spa/Resort, awesome. I got suspicious on the A51's being us made cause they posted on their website last december bout some of the panels will be coming from HK, which is the shipping hub for Shenzhen. hmmm. That's why they can offer competitive pricing. The chinese can make anything and you're dead on regarding QC. I just think it's crazy for us to think the chinese are still like in the 70's during the Mao days. They threw a 40 billion dollar olympic statement for the world to see. Again, it's nice to converse with someone who understands. My respect, sir.

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China is adjusting accordingly to the LED market, but I feel they are at least 1 year behind on a best case scenario. They are getting better for sure though. A 2014 China direct lamp will blow the doors off of a 2010 Blackstar, and all of its copies.

It's not so much that Advanced and such relies on the factories to buy for them, but they buy themselves and have the Chinese factories do the labor at a lesser cost. I can speak for A51, because I am A51, I am their engineer, A51 buys their LEDs from an USA source (Digikey and Mouser) and has them soldered locally. I would think Advanced does the same thing.

I am pretty sure Advanced has more money than A51, if they are not sourcing their own LEDs, then I am surprised, as far as their 10w XMLs. What they use for their reds and blues, your guess is as good as mine, nothing can be proven either way. But, Advanced seems like a company to stand behind their warranty, and I would feel comfortable buying from them. They may have had their whole fake Cree fiasco of 2011, but they are still here and running strong, that tells me something. They are here to stay and will stand behind what they do.

For the record, I like Chinese LED panels, some of them. It is a great alternative for a budget minded fellow to use LED rather HPS to save on some heat. Heat can be an issue for some peeps, living in a small apartment, trying to ventilate a spare bedroom with just central air and a fan while running 1000w is not easy with HPS, 1000w of Chinese LED can replace that with lower heat and similar results as the 1000w HPS. It gives the budget grower that lives in an apartment building a way to grow with some lowered heat. There are some companies that can do it for lower watts and lower heat. They cost more and they are from an American source.

If I were a customer sitting on $1000, I'd be torn on what I want to do. But, to be fair, I am not a customer sitting on $1000, but rather a business owner sitting on over $100k (I can provide a screenshot if you do not believe me, I do not BS.), if it wasn't for the A51 lamps at cost, I would most definitely buy the Hans panel, I'd use 1 per every 18"x18", while maintaining lower watts per square foot than that would be needed with HPS. Heat will be lower too.

monkeychief said:

Forgot to asked u if you're in the business since u visited these factories and own a spectroradiometer. Like u I've visited CT, E-shine, and Bysen, Topline, and Cidly. Yes, I agree as with anything, one must approach with extreme caution, but I feel they have came a long ways in terms of ethics and code of conduct that's more acceptable to us. One must consider that if they can buy these chips for say Advanced or others the same top bin Crees or Osrams, why can't and wouldn't they provide the same chips to their other panels. So the question goes back to integrity and to think u can do better from just going brand-name and instead of going direct is a bit naive. These factories are not going anywhere as they're much bigger with larger budgets than your average us based resellers or private label makes. Again, I'm not trying to demonize the brand-names put simply pointing out a more cost-effective approach to the industry as long as u do your homework and buy from the right factories. I just feel unless u're getting a panel such as Apache, CLW, Kessil, and A51 if u can even consider them as us made or just assembled in usa of chinese parts. If this is true, why would u want to pay 3-4x as much for the exact same panel.. To say just by buying from a us based company will give u more buyer's security is wishful and very naive thinking.

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do these chips come from the right bins? http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-7-Band-864w-LED-Grow-Light

this conversation is intense for LED newbs

With nothing to go on other than the price, I'm guessing "no".

Shoot HTG an email, and simply ask for parts numbers, bin numbers, radiometric output per LED used, mA driven at, what nanometer, and, or kelvin each LED runs at, and the overall micromole at canopy level at 12", as well as micromole level at the edge of the advertised footprint.

Their answer will answer all of your questions, and then some.

Myles117 said:

do these chips come from the right bins? http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-7-Band-864w-LED-Grow-Light

this conversation is intense for LED newbs

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I see what you did there

monkeychief said:

Illumitex's pretty much the king and only cob type that actually works. THey're basically 16 1w chips running at .69% efficiency pullin 11w actual. ... By all means, please correct my math if I'm wrong.

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Are you referring to the Surexi? The F3 is 30% efficient at 500mA. Their datasheets make this very easy which I appreciate. Are you referring to a different illumitex model?

Thank you for your honesty and professionalism as it will only re-enforce my respect for your company since a lot of so-called brand-names leaves a lot to be desired. I understand along with u guys that the chinese are the world's manufacturing infrastructure and the only way to keep your production costs down and stay competitive is have them make it. If you noticed, you guys are the only american company I recommend due to quality, hardware and and value-added. I also commend u in heading into the direction gradually out of the red into the white dominated spectrum to hit all the band in between. I've doing a lot of R&D on the whites since I bought the Apache. I don't see how we can expect the plants to achieve max. genetic potential when they are only getting par peaks rather than the complete par like sunlight. Definitely the benchmark in design and execution. An an engineer's version but feel that it's underpowered and understandable overpriced due to the design and build quality.

Thank you for being honest and acknowledging that these cheap factory direct units will even though you're a competitor. Speaks very highly of your ethics and professionalism as I wish more companies would follow this kind of code of conduct. I was somehow demonize for disclosing what u just confirmed as a professional from the business.

These 2 paragraphs alone shows that you guys are a class act. I sincerely commend u as it takes a lot of confidence to make these statements. Bravo, chalk one up for A51.

For the record, I like Chinese LED panels, some of them. It is a great alternative for a budget minded fellow to use LED rather HPS to save on some heat. Heat can be an issue for some peeps, living in a small apartment, trying to ventilate a spare bedroom with just central air and a fan while running 1000w is not easy with HPS, 1000w of Chinese LED can replace that with lower heat and similar results as the 1000w HPS. It gives the budget grower that lives in an apartment building a way to grow with some lowered heat. There are some companies that can do it for lower watts and lower heat. They cost more and they are from an American source.

Amen. Coming from an American led professional and not a uneducated, chinese salesman blowing smoke up americans rear ends including his.


If I were a customer sitting on $1000, I'd be torn on what I want to do. But, to be fair, I am not a customer sitting on $1000, but rather a business owner sitting on over $100k (I can provide a screenshot if you do not believe me, I do not BS.), if it wasn't for the A51 lamps at cost, I would most definitely buy the Hans panel, I'd use 1 per every 18"x18", while maintaining lower watts per square foot than that would be needed with HPS. Heat will be lower too.

I'm sitting on low 8s, but I would still rather opt. for the factory directs since I'm very familiar with spec. and logic behind this tech. There's no point for a person like me to buy a brand name since I pretty much do what u do on a smaller scale. I recommend these direct panels for the new people with limited budget cause these panels are not cheap by any means. I can go an recommend Blackdog's and other high end/price makes but it bothers me since there's much more cost-effective units. But then again, I understand and respect anyone who wishes and demand the best so be it. U do it for buz, I do for fun. It's nice to see this tech. has finally reached the state that it can be looked at as a viable HID replacement and save a lot of power and resources.

Monkey, as far as I know, you're one of the good guys. Props to you.

monkeychief said:

These 2 paragraphs alone shows that you guys are a class act. I sincerely commend u as it takes a lot of confidence to make these statements. Bravo, chalk one up for A51.

For the record, I like Chinese LED panels, some of them. It is a great alternative for a budget minded fellow to use LED rather HPS to save on some heat. Heat can be an issue for some peeps, living in a small apartment, trying to ventilate a spare bedroom with just central air and a fan while running 1000w is not easy with HPS, 1000w of Chinese LED can replace that with lower heat and similar results as the 1000w HPS. It gives the budget grower that lives in an apartment building a way to grow with some lowered heat. There are some companies that can do it for lower watts and lower heat. They cost more and they are from an American source.

Amen. Coming from an American led professional and not a uneducated, chinese salesman blowing smoke up americans rear ends including his.


If I were a customer sitting on $1000, I'd be torn on what I want to do. But, to be fair, I am not a customer sitting on $1000, but rather a business owner sitting on over $100k (I can provide a screenshot if you do not believe me, I do not BS.), if it wasn't for the A51 lamps at cost, I would most definitely buy the Hans panel, I'd use 1 per every 18"x18", while maintaining lower watts per square foot than that would be needed with HPS. Heat will be lower too.

I'm sitting on low 8s, but I would still rather opt. for the factory directs since I'm very familiar with spec. and logic behind this tech. There's no point for a person like me to buy a brand name since I pretty much do what u do on a smaller scale. I recommend these direct panels for the new people with limited budget cause these panels are not cheap by any means. I can go an recommend Blackdog's and other high end/price makes but it bothers me since there's much more cost-effective units. But then again, I understand and respect anyone who wishes and demand the best so be it. U do it for buz, I do for fun. It's nice to see this tech. has finally reached the state that it can be looked at as a viable HID replacement and save a lot of power and resources.

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Regarding the Hans for the last time. Yours will have a much better par reading for obvious reason that I won't state since no other 5watters on the market I'm aware of that has got the right design as yours. It's quite obvious so I don't understand why the others don't get it except lack of ingenuity. It's nice that u verify this as it reinforces my point that it takes at least 40-50w per sqft. in this 18"x18" I agree will work but for $240 I feel one can do better going direct if budget was an issue but then again, it's your money so buy whatever makes u happy. One is much better off with your panel since yours will definitely have better par readings from the secondary lens along a lower cost per watt of $3.02/w vs. $3.69, respectively. Like I said, I'm not here to bash Hans or any other panel, but to just try to clarify a lot of misunderstanding bout the required wattage, and coverage vs. cost-performance. In this case, support yourself cause there's no point in supporting your competitor especially if it's inferior.

Hans @ 65w in an 18"x18" = 65w per each 2.25w, or otherwise 28.8w per square foot.

I'm not aware of any Chinese lights that can do it at 28.8w per square foot.

45w per square foot, sí.

LED's suck. I have 5@600w and my 400w halide has more punch than all 3000w led. They have no punch, the light does not penetrate the canopy

droid maxx

Such useless information is not needed here.

If your first sexual experience was similarly bad, would you never try again?

What would be useful is to name your panels, so that others might not make the same mistake

Medical Grower Wa. said:

LED's suck. I have 5@600w and my 400w halide has more punch than all 3000w led. They have no punch, the light does not penetrate the canopy

droid maxx

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Eraserhead said:

Hans @ 65w in an 18"x18" = 65w per each 2.25w, or otherwise 28.8w per square foot.

I'm not aware of any Chinese lights that can do it at 28.8w per square foot.

45w per square foot, sí.

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I know, but 28.8w/sqft. is pushing it for a light with no secondary lens. The reflectors machining quality do look impressive in spirit of all hans & grans products, but it's not going to make up for the lack of secondary lens by a long shot. This is more like a 12" x 12" with plants no more than 24" otherwise you're gonna get airy buds deal to me. I ran a pair of BD700's at 18" for a total of 1400w and even then only got about 18" of actual penetration meaning the buds were fully develop and the rest were small filler buds. One must consider even sunlight can only penetrate an honest 24-36" because leaves are specially designed to be very effective solar panels. This seem to be the max. because if you've ever grown a Humboldt size 9ft.+ outdoor tree, the branches pretty much max out at this length due to the sun's penetration limit because these monster will probably get bigger if it could penetrate any deeper. Hold up a leaf under the sun and examine the see how dark that shadow is and it will give u an idea how effective it is, leaving mostly weak deflected and diffused light left for the undergrowth. Plants rely more on the sun's movement to change the angle of penetration to enable direct light contact with the inner and some of the lower growth.

I'm not aware of any Chinese lights that can do it at 28.8w per square foot.

I've never used them, but 28.8w/sqft. it's 36% less than the recommended 45w/sqft. If these were secondary lens equipped, I would be much more convinced that 28.8W might do it, but they're not. I also notice u guys recommend the 190's for a 3x3', which would put u at only 21.11W/sqft. as this is less than half of the recommended 45W. Even if this was true, my standard workhorse testers 100x3w pulling 220w running my white spec. will put 55w/sqft into a 2x2" for $149 shipped. And yes, this factory offers the same Crees they install a well know brand and I trust them because everything checked out as spec'd on my other panels but I chose not to go with Crees because the small difference I can more than make up with sheer wattage without incurring extra costs. I realize that the Crees are more efficient, but not by 3x if you compare price performance and cost-effectiveness. Hey, I'm just a messenger but this stagecoach's armed. lol.



45w per square foot, sí.[/QUOTE]

Funny, this thread is starting to look super similar....deja vu almost.

SupraSPL said:

Are you referring to the Surexi? The F3 is 30% efficient at 500mA. Their datasheets make this very easy which I appreciate. Are you referring to a different illumitex model?

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No, I apologize for the confusion as I didn't go back to reference the specs. so I simply divided the total rated wattage into the actual draw wattage to reference the actual in relationship to the rated wattage.
16w total divided by 11wactual = .689