If Tax cuts create jobs

Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
canndo said:
We who inhabit this site have a unique opportunity to make use of the underground economy. That system of barter is a rich American heritage going back to the beginning of our country.
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But-but you're not paying your FAIR SHARE !!!
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
Rob Roy said:
But-but you're not paying your FAIR SHARE !!!
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so long as we operate with a substance that is not recognized as legitimate in the United States and so long as our doing so places our freedom at risk, we do indeed "pay our fair share".
 
Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
canndo said:
No, in effect they are not consentual. As far as duress is involved, I suppose under your concept of duress it is so, but in mine it is a business transaction the same as any other. A fixed amount given for a service. I do indeed have to pick up the slack much as I would if you suddenly refused to pay the local taxes involved in fire fighting. I still want my home protected against the fire that might rage in your home next door.

I see that you are bitter that this country doesn't adhere to your rightful view that people shouldn't be put in jail over their use of a plant and more particularly an arbitrary number of such plants. I am sorry about that, but it seems to color your entire view of the nature and necessity of government.

Rob, you can no longer live in a country were you are simply "left alone", you are expected if you reap the rewards of the order established in this country to either adhere to certain standards or conciously opt not to, and accept the consequences of your actions in so doing.

You and I may not agree with our government's actions and it's use of our money but on the whole we get great worth for the money we contribute.
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Fire dept. ? I guess you've never heard of a volunteer dept?

The meaning of the word duress is the same regardless if it is a man that is an "official" with a badge or a robber with a mask that imposes the duress. The ACT remains the same regardless of the perpetrator. You can't get around that one.

The nature of government is force. Even slave owner George Washington knew that. It is necessary for a peaceful society not to impose our will on others that leave us alone, that is the main requirement. Government by its nature does not meet that requirement.

No, "we" do not get great worth for what we contribute. First of all a "contribution" is willful, not a forced taking. You have fallen prey to the government word smithing, sorry to see that. As far as the great worth, I derive no worth from supporting an empire or a warfare / welfare state.
 
Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
canndo said:
so long as we operate with a substance that is not recognized as legitimate in the United States and so long as our doing so places our freedom at risk, we do indeed "pay our fair share".
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So when slavery was "lawful" it was acceptable ?
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
Rob Roy said:
Fire dept. ? I guess you've never heard of a volunteer dept?

The meaning of the word duress is the same regardless if it is a man that is an "official" with a badge or a robber with a mask that imposes the duress. The ACT remains the same regardless of the perpetrator. You can't get around that one.

The nature of government is force. Even slave owner George Washington knew that. It is necessary for a peaceful society not to impose our will on others that leave us alone, that is the main requirement. Government by its nature does not meet that requirement.

No, "we" do not get great worth for what we contribute. First of all a "contribution" is willful, not a forced taking. You have fallen prey to the government word smithing, sorry to see that. As far as the great worth, I derive no worth from supporting an empire or a warfare / welfare state.
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Volunteer fire departments have no need of money? They purchase their equipment from their own wallets?

If the "robber" takes your cash, it is likely he leaves you with nothing, furthermore, if he takes your cash he does not offer you anything in return, Government offers you a great deal.

You seem to be asking for life without government, without a central organization that makes the will of the people known. You can go experience such things in lawless lands. It is up to us all to guarantee that our government has the smallest footprint on our individual that it can but that usually takes participation.

Again, I entreat you to try living in a place where there is no government and then return to tell us how wonderful it is to spend an appreciable amount of time ensuring that your food and water are clean, that any interaction you have with others is just, that your transportation is safe and that your love ones are taken care of should anything happen to you. You derive a great deal of "worth" I marvel at those who are unable to perceive what is all around them, the support structures and guarantees provided those people silently, quietly while they go about their business.
 
Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
canndo said:
Volunteer fire departments have no need of money? They purchase their equipment from their own wallets?

If the "robber" takes your cash, it is likely he leaves you with nothing, furthermore, if he takes your cash he does not offer you anything in return, Government offers you a great deal.

You seem to be asking for life without government, without a central organization that makes the will of the people known. You can go experience such things in lawless lands. It is up to us all to guarantee that our government has the smallest footprint on our individual that it can but that usually takes participation.

Again, I entreat you to try living in a place where there is no government and then return to tell us how wonderful it is to spend an appreciable amount of time ensuring that your food and water are clean, that any interaction you have with others is just, that your transportation is safe and that your love ones are taken care of should anything happen to you. You derive a great deal of "worth" I marvel at those who are unable to perceive what is all around them, the support structures and guarantees provided those people silently, quietly while they go about their business.
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You are correct volunteer fire depts STILL steal some money, just less than the wasteful ones many towns and cities use.

Your robber analogy, overlooks the initiation of force and in no way justifies it. So if a man rapes a girl, but doesn't beat her too bad or at all, it is somehow justified? Of course not, the reason being there WAS NO CONSENT.

Can't I just live where there is no government that initiates aggression ? Would that be okay ? Where does that place exist? Or more importantly HOW will it exist if people continue to be apologists for systems that rely on coercive force?
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
so far as "contribution" is concerned Rob, I am aware that I need not make the money I do and I will "contribute" less. There are reqirements in order to live in this society because others live in it as well.


We all drive on freeways or highways in this country. We take for granted that the lanes are marked, the onramps organized, the directions and exits marked, the flow monitored and the common rules ordained but they are what enables us to get from one place to another predictably and safely. Sure, there are a few who ignore the rules but we find that an abnormality. this is government. What you seem to be longing for is a nasty bit of roadway where there are no rules except "don't harm anyone else" but that lets everyone make their own determination as to what will or will not endanger you. so the guy that speeds may not hit you but may well cause someone else to swerve and hit you. Another person may feel that it is prudent and safe to merge from any surface street or simply stop in the middle of the roadway because it is his wish, he has not hurt you directly and so believes it is his "right to be left alone".
 
ginwilly

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
why is fire departments always used to describe a function of the federal government? They are locally paid and usually through voted millage increases. In other words, if a community wants a fire department, they'll have one, if they don't want to pay for one they won't. They are not an example of the good the federal government does. Our income taxes do not go to paying for this service, voluntary taxes do.
 
Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
canndo said:
so far as "contribution" is concerned Rob, I am aware that I need not make the money I do and I will "contribute" less. There are reqirements in order to live in this society because others live in it as well.


We all drive on freeways or highways in this country. We take for granted that the lanes are marked, the onramps organized, the directions and exits marked, the flow monitored and the common rules ordained but they are what enables us to get from one place to another predictably and safely. Sure, there are a few who ignore the rules but we find that an abnormality. this is government. What you seem to be longing for is a nasty bit of roadway where there are no rules except "don't harm anyone else" but that lets everyone make their own determination as to what will or will not endanger you. so the guy that speeds may not hit you but may well cause someone else to swerve and hit you. Another person may feel that it is prudent and safe to merge from any surface street or simply stop in the middle of the roadway because it is his wish, he has not hurt you directly and so believes it is his "right to be left alone".
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Highways could be paid for by user fees or if you insist thru a fuel tax.

I don't mind rules. In fact I LIKE them. What's the first rule we often teach our kids? To leave other people and their stuff alone right? I try very hard not to violate that rule and don't support people or systems that do. It seems that you support systems that break the first rule we teach our kids, why ?

Your road story is cute, but doesn't apply to me, rules of the road can exist absent a coercive government. I practice courteous driving.
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
Rob Roy said:
You are correct volunteer fire depts STILL steal some money, just less than the wasteful ones many towns and cities use.

Your robber analogy, overlooks the initiation of force and in no way justifies it. So if a man rapes a girl, but doesn't beat her too bad or at all, it is somehow justified? Of course not, the reason being there WAS NO CONSENT.

Can't I just live where there is no government that initiates aggression ? Would that be okay ? Where does that place exist? Or more importantly HOW will it exist if people continue to be apologists for systems that rely on coercive force?
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How much then do you "consent" to give for the services you recieve? and does that work in a walmart as well? "I need this microwave but I don't deem it worth $99.00, so I will give you $40.00 If you stop me at the door and arrest me for shoplifting I will claim that you are "stealing" from me or using a threat of force to get my money. This is about what you are saying. That you have the right to name the price you want to pay for what is afforded you by way of government services.

No Rob, you can't just live where there is no government that intitiates agression unless you opt to live in a place where individuals take on the very same role. The only way you can be assured that you will not be subject to force is if you live on your own and there are no preditory animals present. Then, according to your understanding of force, even the rats or mice in your area might "steal" your food from you.

What you seek is not possible in the world of men.
 
Mr Neutron

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
canndo said:
Gotta bring up aberations in defense of your position. Yes indeed, these people "created order", not too well though considering that their order was somewhat short lived. A definition of such societal order is longevity of the current system. Old monarchies aren't particularly orderly in transition, neither are dictatorships. I never said that all order was good and I never said that governments provide order that resulted in social justice but the better governments are the ones that establish and maintain long term order because the virtue of that order results in longevity of the government.
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That's why it's best for the bilk of the power to be held as local as possible. The government that governs least, governs best.


canndo said:
What I said was that governments do provide a "product" or "service". They create or perpetuate order.
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Government does not provide anything but force. If they provide a "product" or "service"... I want a refund.
Neither do they perpetuate anything other than their own power. Order is maintained by society, albeit, sometimes because of the threat of the government but that is what they are for, to maintain justice. When people get along as they do 99.9% of the time, government should have no impact or interest.
 
londonfog

londonfog

Well-Known Member
ginwilly said:
why is fire departments always used to describe a function of the federal government? They are locally paid and usually through voted millage increases. In other words, if a community wants a fire department, they'll have one, if they don't want to pay for one they won't. They are not an example of the good the federal government does. Our income taxes do not go to paying for this service, voluntary taxes do.
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Sorry that you are misinformed, but thats what this site can be for...To get correct information. Fire departments do receive federal funding. The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) deals with just that. Try google its your friend...start with "The Assistance to Firefighters Grant". Thank you
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
Mr Neutron said:
That's why it's best for the bilk of the power to be held as local as possible. The government that governs least, governs best.




Government does not provide anything but force. If they provide a "product" or "service"... I want a refund.
Neither do they perpetuate anything other than their own power. Order is maintained by society, albeit, sometimes because of the threat of the government but that is what they are for, to maintain justice. When people get along as they do 99.9% of the time, government should have no impact or interest.
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Government and society are intertwined and pretty much seamless. You don't get one without the other. You get their "product or service" every minute of every day if you live in this country from knowing that you got the gallon of gas you paid for and it wasn't short to having recourse when a contract you made wasn't fulfilled. You can call this recourse "force" if you wish, but there are degrees of force.
I don't think any of us would like to live in a world of men where there are not penalties for certain behavior.

What is interesting is the understanding of what government is. For many the defintion changes, on the one hand it is some composit of filthy politicians, on another it is unjust laws, or disagreeable regulations. To some it is simply jails and prisons or judges. Some see it as a group of nameless people who take your money and give it to someone who doesn't want to work. Still others see it as a direct extension of that damn socialist/communist/Kenyan who makes your job go away through some unknown and unknowable magical power. Most times the Right sees it as primitive men saw the mechanics of their natural world, water nymphs and trolls, spirits and Gods, each plotting to do something evil to every individual and having no redeaming properties whatsoever.

How perceptions change.
 
Mr Neutron

Mr Neutron

Well-Known Member
canndo said:
If you refuse to pay your taxes and I have to pick up that slack, you are not actually respecting my rights.
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Slack? There is no slack, it's called the deficit.
So, if everybody "gave back" and "voluntarily" "paid their fair share"... then our taxes would go down?
 
canndo

canndo

Well-Known Member
ginwilly said:
why is fire departments always used to describe a function of the federal government? They are locally paid and usually through voted millage increases. In other words, if a community wants a fire department, they'll have one, if they don't want to pay for one they won't. They are not an example of the good the federal government does. Our income taxes do not go to paying for this service, voluntary taxes do.
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Rob doesn't seem to differenciate between local and federal government. I am talking about government in general, at any level, and not necessarily the Fed. If we want to talk about different levels of govenment that might be a different discussion.
 
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