I just don't get LED's....Someone enlighten me

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
I guess we all get a little defensive when people say anything bad about LED lol there is a lot of misinformation out there

It's more so the blatant lying or just straight up not having a clue about them, but still talking shit that pisses me off.

Don't tell me LED's suck and can't grow bud when I produce AAA bud, consistently, time and time again. It pretty obvious LED's work, as I have 52 PAGES of pictures I could have posted to prove my point. :D


It's funny that the ONE GOD DAMN THING LED's ARE KNOWN FOR is the lack of stretching, and dude has the balls to say they produce stretchy plants? lol The sheer ignorance is mind boggling.


EDIT: Sorry, 57 pages. ;)
 

lilroach

Well-Known Member
OK! OK! I started this thread NOT TO BASH LED'S! I just wanted some civilized growers to tell me why they chose this lighting source over the more traditional lighting.

I understand that LED's can narrow (arguably) the light spectrum for better growth of weed. I'm not sure that the shot-gun approach of mixing MH and HPS isn't a more viable answer as long as electrical usage isn't factored in especially when growing more than a couple of plants at a time.

From my novice reading, I also looked at aquarium lighting (I like floros) that is supposed to duplicate the advantages of LED's at what seems to be much less expense.

Another question I have is that if LED's are not heat generators, why is it that the lights have cooling fans? It's been my experience that these fans must vent someplace, and by the looks of many of these fixtures they vent into the same grow-space as the plants. Does this not increase the ambient temperatures of the room?
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
^^^^^ the heat produced by led is minimal compared to hps. The fans cool the leds , directing the heat in different directions utilizing the heat sync driving the heat upwards away from the light and canopy. Hps heat is directed right to the canopy. That's no bueno...

some leds like astir do not have fans and passively cooled. They are small panels and put put almost no heat.

I myself am back to doing par t5's (aquarium bulbs). Long story short I lost everything. Now I'm using loaned lights. Picking up 2 more t5's from a buddy this weekend. They work great too. But they don't have the intensity to penetrate beyond 2-3 feet. But produce very high par. Some bulbs won't last a year. Some will go strong for more than 2 years. I may be starting a new t5 thread soon.
 

PICOGRAV

Well-Known Member
OK! OK! I started this thread NOT TO BASH LED'S! I just wanted some civilized growers to tell me why they chose this lighting source over the more traditional lighting.

I understand that LED's can narrow (arguably) the light spectrum for better growth of weed. I'm not sure that the shot-gun approach of mixing MH and HPS isn't a more viable answer as long as electrical usage isn't factored in especially when growing more than a couple of plants at a time.

From my novice reading, I also looked at aquarium lighting (I like floros) that is supposed to duplicate the advantages of LED's at what seems to be much less expense.

Another question I have is that if LED's are not heat generators, why is it that the lights have cooling fans? It's been my experience that these fans must vent someplace, and by the looks of many of these fixtures they vent into the same grow-space as the plants. Does this not increase the ambient temperatures of the room?
This is what I said earllry in the thread:
"LED lighting produces about the same or more heat then HPS lights (HPS is still one of the most efficient light sources developed), LEDs have the heat advantage because most of the heat is being displaced on the opposite side to where the light is omitted, there for, allowing much better cooling design."

This is the air flow in my setup now:

Air Flow.jpg

The two grey boxes in the first duct are the heatsinks:

photo 1.jpgphoto 3.jpgphoto 4.jpgLED.jpg
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
OK! OK! I started this thread NOT TO BASH LED'S! I just wanted some civilized growers to tell me why they chose this lighting source over the more traditional lighting.

I understand that LED's can narrow (arguably) the light spectrum for better growth of weed. I'm not sure that the shot-gun approach of mixing MH and HPS isn't a more viable answer as long as electrical usage isn't factored in especially when growing more than a couple of plants at a time.
If you don't care about power costs, and cooling costs; that might be a more viable option. I don't think I know any growers that don't want to minimize costs for one reason or another. Either to get more profit, or decrease the likelihood of being caught.

From my novice reading, I also looked at aquarium lighting (I like floros) that is supposed to duplicate the advantages of LED's at what seems to be much less expense.
You will get less penetration from flouros than LED.

Another question I have is that if LED's are not heat generators, why is it that the lights have cooling fans? It's been my experience that these fans must vent someplace, and by the looks of many of these fixtures they vent into the same grow-space as the plants. Does this not increase the ambient temperatures of the room?
They do produce heat, it's just not much.... I don't run any cooling, and my tent stays around 76-78 degrees. I'm running 4 panels in a 4x4 @ a total of 831W at the plug FYI. ;)
 

skunkd0c

Well-Known Member
it will be a great day when HPS can be replaced by a standard led or even induction lamps
whatever the new technology is, it will be very welcome from me,
hps are very old technology and have barely been improved in 20-30 years lol
they waste lots of power and produce lots of heat

at the moment there are so many led lights available with very mixed results
for the price of them, many established hps growers would still see them as a gamble
with so many more variables in the equation when deciding which light to actually buy
when considering leds

i have seen some very nice results with leds, i will eventually give them a go

peace
 

lilroach

Well-Known Member
So.....as I understand it....so far.....

There's good and bad LED's....and it's "buyer beware" if they don't do their homework.

While certain T5's can mimic LED's, they do not have the penetration.

There is still heat generated by LED's. I'm guessing that they produce about the same as T5's (it's a guess).

From what I can see, LED's don't necessarily grow bigger or better weed than HPS, but just do it more efficiently and with less heat.

Do have have it right so far?

I still have a few more questions:

1. Considering the initial cost of LED's are they a good return on investment? How long would it take to recoup the extra cost?

2. For those that are growing in a larger grow-room, are LED's a viable solution to lighting vs. HPS with cool-tubes?

3. What lighting is better for veg.....T5's or LED's?

4. Considering the rate of improvement, and the eventual lowering of cost...what is your best guess on when these will be competitive with traditional lighting?

I truly appreciate the input of my queries. I currently have a 400w MH and a 600w HPS in Easycool 6 sealed fixtures roving over my plants on a light-mover. I also have over 400w of floros lighting up the sides and underneath my 8 plants and am getting good growth. The downside of all this is that I wrestle with heat issues during the summer months, and there's a ton of hardware adorning my grow-room. I can't tell you how many times I wacked my head on the friggin light fixtures due to the mover making them a moving target.

And the scary part is......my electric meter hasn't been read by the utility company in a year (it's a long story) and they've been estimating my cost the whole time. There will be a day of reckoning and I'm sure they'll be surprise how much juice I've been using.
 

Thecouchlock

Well-Known Member
There is also debate as to led's producing more resin. I am going to find out for myself soon, just waiting for the babies to grow up.
 

Edstonx

Active Member
I only have a partial answer for you on question #1 and that's because electric costs vary by location. For me on electric alone my SGS theoretically paid for itself in just over a year. This doesn't factor in that many growers using traditional lighting exchange their bulbs 6-12 month intervals which can add up. Also not having to battle heat saves a little cash aswell. So I'd say with all that in mind a year is where it paid for itself. And with a nice warranty and the possibility of upgrades to my unit, it's win win.

Let me also mention filling an average room with multiple flower stations, veg stations, and clone room with traditional lighting and duct work to fight heat and all that stuff as apposed to leds and basic air exchange for co2, creates a situation in which you are much more likely to draw attention. I can really put a price on that though.

Sorry for the sentence that never ends in there. I've failed at proper punctuation.
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
High green level whites diodes, with a bunch of extra red seems to be the 'ticket'.

So, as for LED having more usable light, it's pretty much only from the added red now.

When companies like Blackstar were putting out Red/Blue panels they were probably damn near 100% "usable light" because they didn't have any white diodes. lol Now everything is WW, NW, or CW with Red enhancement.... Turns out that HPS wasn't really that far off after all.... :D
 

lilroach

Well-Known Member
As it stands now, I think I'll stick with my HPS/MH set-up. I'm attracted to LED's because of the mixed-spectrum output for the same reason I use the two-bulb set-up. I look at photos of the lighting used in most of the professional grow rooms and they use the dual-spectrum of MH and HPS....favoring the HPS.

I'm in the computer field and witness the break-neck speed technology is advancing and how the prices continue down. I'm betting in 5 years most grow-rooms will be lit with LED's.

For those of you pushing the edge with LED's, thank you. If there wasn't anyone buying and tweaking LED's, there would be no market incentive to improve this type of lighting.
 

lilroach

Well-Known Member
It's getting to the point one cannot start a harmless thread without someone bashing someone else's growing techniques. If you don't like how someone else grows weed, I'm sure you can find a thread where you agree with everything someone does.
 

skyled

Member
Hi,
I think we have to clarify some points

-Heat,
It depend on what kind of Leds you buy
Some Cheap Leds, whose efficiency nearly 20-30%, give out to much heat, more than HPS
But the last cree Leds, with an efficiency of 40-50%, produce half heat

-power consumption
As I said, Some Leds have a great efficiency,
I don't think that an HPS beat 40% output (I could be wrong)
whatever the spectrum, better efficiency mean much light
so better yeld

-Penetration
With Leds, you choose the penetration
Your light could have the penetration you want
It depend on the spectrum, the quantity of light by square feet and the emission angle
Leds can beat HPS's penetration, If it's what you want ...
People said that leds have a poor penetration because their have, I answer "It's your fault, you made a bad choice"

Everything is possible with Leds, but it requires a minimum of reflection
 

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
I am not wrong, do your research when you can, why would I post such foolish things? My judgement is good and I can always back it up, so please move on.
YOU ARE WRONG go do some real research, stop arguing and stop trying to hang onto old technology.
 

PurpleBuz

Well-Known Member
High green level whites diodes, with a bunch of extra red seems to be the 'ticket'.

So, as for LED having more usable light, it's pretty much only from the added red now.

When companies like Blackstar were putting out Red/Blue panels they were probably damn near 100% "usable light" because they didn't have any white diodes. lol Now everything is WW, NW, or CW with Red enhancement.... Turns out that HPS wasn't really that far off after all.... :D
HPS is a narrow band yellow\orange light. The only reason it works is because of extra high intensity. There is absolutely no comparison from a well tuned led spectrum and HPS.
 

OrangeHaze

Well-Known Member
I use LED and I really don't feel it's a matter of how good the lights perform so much as the cost associated with them. High barrier of entry (financially) and you must be willing to do some research.

Most quality LED panels start at $300 so it takes a serious commitment to try them. I see complete HPS systems for 400 bucks now, so they will probably be around a while and become the new budget growers item.

Luckily we have some trailblazers on the forums here trying stuff out for us.
 

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
everyone: I was under the impression that while LED's, at this point in time, are slightly more efficient than a good HPS system, but the cost savings on electricity wouldn't be hugely notable. The biggest difference is the ballast vs driver component. If you're using a magnetic ballast there is no contest, LED's with their driver consume far less energy. If it's a digital ballast, however, the efficiency increase is less noticeable. Of course, this does not take SPD into account.

lilroach:
1. Depending on cost of electricity, bulbs and -mostly- your HVAC cost, I'd say 2-6 years.

2. Yes. Check out some of ganja's Astir grow threads. He seems to have had a few hydroponic issues, but both grows I've seen have yielded very well for the wattage. I'm sure more could be yielded from his growing space with more light, but still, it's a very efficient system he's got going.

3. Like Beef said, if nothing else, LED's should be known for the compact veg growth that they can provide. One of, if not the, all time vegging champion (although fluroro's are no slouch). Yet, even if you don't want compact plants for some reason, it's very easy to achieve your desired photo morphology by tweaking your wavelength coverage to suit your needs. As you slowly add IR light to your veg spectrum and decrease the Blue output, the more your plants will stretch. LED's give you that power. You can pinpoint the plants gene makeup so as to catalyze a desired phenotypical trait. Narrow band coverage LED's are pretty cool.

4. Competitive to grow? Because lots of business industrial facilities are moving over to LED's due to their increase in efficiency. Neutral White LED's are very luminous and compete at a higher level than traditional lighting. As for growing, radiometrically speaking, LED's aren't as crazy efficient as one might think. It's still slightly better than HPS, but the difference really isn't that huge when comparing to a 600W HPS which tend to be rather efficient already. The difference in efficiency is derived from the cornucopia of options we have over our light quality. We can use less energy, at roughly the same radiometric efficiency, by targeting photosynthesis absorption peaks. As LED's become more efficient, however, we'll be able to throw whatever color photons we want at our plants (even if it's ugly Yellow HPS colored light that we want), achieve any morphology, and not have to worry about efficiency because it's just that far ahead of anything else. So, going back to your original question, where the technology is right now? LED's are already competitive. Where the technology will be in 5 years? I hope it won't even be a competition at that point...


I use LED and still have to actively cool my system otherwise temps get up into the low 100's during the summer. That said, my veg and flower room combined (which includes all lights, the AC unit, exhaust fans, etc.), consumes less energy than a single 1000W HPS w/ digital ballast and a single blower fan on the cool tube. Yes, I was growing in a 3.5' x 3.5' flower room before, and now I'm in a 2' x 2' flower and 1' x 1' veg, but we're not even discussing the rest of the HVAC costs in the HPS room, and the LED rooms could be scaled up with little overall impact on power consumption by adding another ~30W panel or two.
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
HPS is a narrow band yellow\orange light. The only reason it works is because of extra high intensity. There is absolutely no comparison from a well tuned led spectrum and HPS.
Any white light is full spectrum.

Eh..... HPS spectrums aren't THAT bad...


HPS







Area 51 LED




Huge red boost for LED, both use a full spectrum.
 
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