I have defoliated my plants in the hope to increase my yeild :)

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neo12345

neo12345

Well-Known Member
joe macclennan said:
edit: and hey mrshim..you don't need a masters to understand translocation...just a little reading comprehension. Which apparently many are lacking here.

translocation....look it up

if you really have a degree in botany then you should understand how defoliation would bring the process of translocation to a halt.

why the fuck do trees have leaves?
Click to expand...
Surely the question should be how do trees get leaves? There are trees outside my house with no leaves on, so where do the new leaves come from? They have no leaves at all, so how can they make new leaves according to your theory that translocation stops when you defoliate a plant??

So if I moved the tree inside and gave it 18 hours of sunlight and warmer temps what do you think would happen? Yes it would start growing leaves, but how when it has no leaves to start with?

We have two choices here so it's either translocation does not stop when you defoliate a plant it actually continues with stores of energy from other sources such as the roots and crown, or there are leaf fairies with little bottles of Superglue that go round attaching the new leaves?

Try the experiment for yourself, veg a plant then defoliate it. Then watch what happens, you'll see that translocation does not stop and that it diverts to growing new leaves instead of storing up that energy in your old fan leaves.

If we must keep having solar panel analogies then can I add this one?

You have four solar panels on your roof, I come and rip them off. In two weeks time the solar panels have grown back but now there are eight of them. So which is better four solar panels or eight?

In those 2 weeks of vegging your plants are storing all of that energy in your big fan leaves, where as my plant has spent those two weeks growing twice as many leaves.

Is it better to have your plants storing the energy or using the energy I guess is the question i'm asking?
 
J

joe macclennan

Well-Known Member
ok knucklehead so here's the skinny. Yes, you posted a link to a medi grow +7kw. Happy now?

as far as the rest goes. I did read the first page and he was STARTING the grow.

pretty far from an experienced large scale grower to say the least. And then you went on to say that "somewhere" in there he decided to
experiment with defol techniques. Again, obviously not experienced in the subject or he wouldn't have needed to "experiment" in the first place.

and as I edited my earlier post. I see he was running a portable ac. This smacks of poor planning and inexperience for a grow of that size.

If you can't deduce these obvious points on your own you are helpless. Do you need spoon fed too?

I wonder why there are no defoliation threads stickied in advanced...or anywhere else here?????

must be a fucking conspiracy! even the owner and admin are "haters" of defol techniques.

or they are smart enough to know that things like that are what the amateurs do.
 
SunJ

SunJ

Member

  • Rosecity,

    Personally, I would not top them this time of year. You're really close to bloom beginning. Topping this close to the stretch may kill your yield.

    I know pruning is a charged topic. If I was growing un-topped plants outdoors in the middle of a field I would not prune them at all. They will grow as nature taught them to and maximize their yield all by themselves. But, this is hardly the case with indoor plants, trained plants, closely spaced plants (your plants), or plants with limitted acces to the sun (also your plants). My theory on this is that the more we deviate from the plants natural state (outdoors in a field), the more we may have to alter the plants shape to maximize the yield.

    Both myself and my "sister" grow op (40k watts) have done several side by side tests with pruned and un-pruned plants. Like most of us here, we are just trying to figure out the best way to maximize our yield of grade A product. Years ago (like 10+) we found that the strains we grow yielded more per sq ft if they were topped 1 time early on. We tried topping twice, but ended up with more smaller and less marketable buds. We aslo found that the best planting density for highest yield was 4 plants per sq ft. However, that's alot of plants with 200 sq ft of bloom space. So, as a comprimise, we grow 1 plant for every 1-2 sq ft.

    For many years I refused to do any pruning. I would let the leaves die and fall off rather than prune. Then, my friend did a test. One tray he left alone, and another he removed any fan leaves that were overlapping other leaves. His yield went up a little. Then, we both started running tests. After dozens of test runs, we came up with what we do now. No leaves are removed in veg. When we go into bloom, we remove just a few inner fan leaves...just the really big ones. We remove a few every week. After the stretch, we remove any lower growth...leaves and shoots...that are not going to produce good sized buds. This usually means the lower 6" is bare. We also then remove enogh inner fan leaves to allow the light to reach the lower most sections. We also remove enough outer fan leaves to eliminate serious shading of the plant next to it. The goal is to let light reach the entire plant, but not get to the tray. This increased our yield by at least 20% over plants left alone. An added benefit is not ending up with a bunch of tiny little buds.

    I just don't think that a plant's energy shoulf be wasted on growing small loose buds that are not appealing. We need to either let the light reach them, or remove them early on. I know many people don't agree with pruning. Also, many strains may not be suitable for this technique. Puse sativas are a good example. The branches are already spaced enough to let in the light. But, if you're getting alot of sub-standard buds, maybe try letting in some light and see what happens.

    On a side note. In 1996 I read an article in High Times about a grower who planted 9 plants per sq ft! His yield was amazing. I had to try it. At this time there was no medical defense, so if you already had over 100 plants it really didn't make much difference if you had 300 or even 900...you were just as fucked. I placed 300 just rooted clones, all in 4" x 4" rockwool blocks, in a 4' x 8' tray lit by a pair of 1000 watt Son Agro HPS's. The plants were non-topped Northern Lights. The finished height was under a foot. Each plant yielded just over 1/4 ounce. That 4 x 8 tray yielded 5 fucking pounds! 2.5 ounces per sq ft. That was the best yield per sq ft or per light that I have ever had. Unfortunately, now that we're a legal collective with a plant count limit, this cannot be done again. But, If I were a closet grower, this is exactly what I would do.​




Taken from second post on page 120 of the previously referred to thread... please peruse at your convenience.
 
J

joe macclennan

Well-Known Member
neo12345 said:
Surely the question should be how do trees get leaves? There are trees outside my house with no leaves on, so where do the new leaves come from? They have no leaves at all, so how can they make new leaves according to your theory that translocation stops when you defoliate a plant??

So if I moved the tree inside and gave it 18 hours of sunlight and warmer temps what do you think would happen? Yes it would start growing leaves, but how when it has no leaves to start with?

We have two choices here so it's either translocation does not stop when you defoliate a plant it actually continues with stores of energy from other sources such as the roots and crown, or there are leaf fairies with little bottles of Superglue that go round attaching the new leaves?

Try the experiment for yourself, veg a plant then defoliate it. Then watch what happens, you'll see that translocation does not stop and that it diverts to growing new leaves instead of storing up that energy in your old fan leaves.

If we must keep having solar panel analogies then can I add this one?

You have four solar panels on your roof, I come and rip them off. In two weeks time the solar panels have grown back but now there are eight of them. So which is better four solar panels or eight?

In those 2 weeks of vegging your plants are storing all of that energy in your big fan leaves, where as my plant has spent those two weeks growing twice as many leaves.

Is it better to have your plants storing the energy or using the energy I guess is the question i'm asking?
Click to expand...
did you even read the link about translocation? Specifically the part about younger leaves being sinks and the older ones being producers????

obviously not.
 
SunJ

SunJ

Member
joe macclennan said:
did you even read the link about translocation? Specifically the part about younger leaves being sinks and the older ones being producers????

obviously not.
Click to expand...
Yes. Yes, I read it. Obviously you and I interpret it differently as you apparently didn't understand my reply concerning it previously.

Again I refer you to your muddy vision.

*Even I have muddy vision at times... this wasn't originally directed at me, but I still answered as if it was*edit
 
dannyboy602

dannyboy602

Well-Known Member
If ten growers would do an experiment to see what works best defoliating or not it would provide valuable info and put this debate
to rest. Any volunteers?
 
SunJ

SunJ

Member
I've personally been following his method since I began my ventures into growing and I have not been disappointed!
 
SunJ

SunJ

Member
As I stated, my next run I will set up to do all clones and have a control that gets nothing removed.... I'm in!
 
J

joe macclennan

Well-Known Member
SunJ said:

  • Rosecity,

    Personally, I would not top them this time of year. You're really close to bloom beginning. Topping this close to the stretch may kill your yield.

    I know pruning is a charged topic. If I was growing un-topped plants outdoors in the middle of a field I would not prune them at all. They will grow as nature taught them to and maximize their yield all by themselves. But, this is hardly the case with indoor plants, trained plants, closely spaced plants (your plants), or plants with limitted acces to the sun (also your plants). My theory on this is that the more we deviate from the plants natural state (outdoors in a field), the more we may have to alter the plants shape to maximize the yield.

    Both myself and my "sister" grow op (40k watts) have done several side by side tests with pruned and un-pruned plants. Like most of us here, we are just trying to figure out the best way to maximize our yield of grade A product. Years ago (like 10+) we found that the strains we grow yielded more per sq ft if they were topped 1 time early on. We tried topping twice, but ended up with more smaller and less marketable buds. We aslo found that the best planting density for highest yield was 4 plants per sq ft. However, that's alot of plants with 200 sq ft of bloom space. So, as a comprimise, we grow 1 plant for every 1-2 sq ft.

    For many years I refused to do any pruning. I would let the leaves die and fall off rather than prune. Then, my friend did a test. One tray he left alone, and another he removed any fan leaves that were overlapping other leaves. His yield went up a little. Then, we both started running tests. After dozens of test runs, we came up with what we do now. No leaves are removed in veg. When we go into bloom, we remove just a few inner fan leaves...just the really big ones. We remove a few every week. After the stretch, we remove any lower growth...leaves and shoots...that are not going to produce good sized buds. This usually means the lower 6" is bare. We also then remove enogh inner fan leaves to allow the light to reach the lower most sections. We also remove enough outer fan leaves to eliminate serious shading of the plant next to it. The goal is to let light reach the entire plant, but not get to the tray. This increased our yield by at least 20% over plants left alone. An added benefit is not ending up with a bunch of tiny little buds.

    I just don't think that a plant's energy shoulf be wasted on growing small loose buds that are not appealing. We need to either let the light reach them, or remove them early on. I know many people don't agree with pruning. Also, many strains may not be suitable for this technique. Puse sativas are a good example. The branches are already spaced enough to let in the light. But, if you're getting alot of sub-standard buds, maybe try letting in some light and see what happens.

    On a side note. In 1996 I read an article in High Times about a grower who planted 9 plants per sq ft! His yield was amazing. I had to try it. At this time there was no medical defense, so if you already had over 100 plants it really didn't make much difference if you had 300 or even 900...you were just as fucked. I placed 300 just rooted clones, all in 4" x 4" rockwool blocks, in a 4' x 8' tray lit by a pair of 1000 watt Son Agro HPS's. The plants were non-topped Northern Lights. The finished height was under a foot. Each plant yielded just over 1/4 ounce. That 4 x 8 tray yielded 5 fucking pounds! 2.5 ounces per sq ft. That was the best yield per sq ft or per light that I have ever had. Unfortunately, now that we're a legal collective with a plant count limit, this cannot be done again. But, If I were a closet grower, this is exactly what I would do.​


Taken from second post on page 120 of the previously referred to thread... please peruse at your convenience.
Click to expand...
fair enough, but what I can say from experience is that when at 4/sq.ft. they definitely benefit from keeping the leaves on...if they are green.
 
SunJ

SunJ

Member
And what everyone else is trying to tell you is that they all don't grow just like you do, but are still getting good results, having a good time doing it and just sharing their love of the plant! No need for all the negative energy! We all love this shit! How are we gonna get world peace if we can't even have fun, stimulating conversations amongst our own? :)
 
J

joe macclennan

Well-Known Member
SunJ said:
Yes. Yes, I read it. Obviously you and I interpret it differently as you apparently didn't understand my reply concerning it previously.

Again I refer you to your muddy vision.
Click to expand...
I wasn't replying to you with that post...neo was the intended recipient. But how else can translocation be interpreted?

I mean it's pretty black and white. Or green and yellow as it were ;)

a plant moves sugars and starches from here to there as needed. Younger leaves act as sinks, along with other parts and older leaves act as producers the only producers I might add.

what is my Muddied vision missing here?

please clarify for me. My reading comp scores are off the charts so try me.
 
J

joe macclennan

Well-Known Member
SunJ said:
And what everyone else is trying to tell you is that they all don't grow just like you do, but are still getting good results, having a good time doing it and just sharing their love of the plant! No need for all the negative energy! We all love this shit! How are we gonna get world peace if we can't even have fun, stimulating conversations amongst our own? :)
Click to expand...

pshhh! i'm one of the more positive people here...most of the time. I am still waiting to be stimulated by some real evidence pointing to the benefits of defoliation.

not saying i do this or i do that.

and that all that guy in the other thread was saying as well. It's the only reason why I posted about my experience about lighting and 4/sq.ft.
 
SunJ

SunJ

Member
joe macclennan said:
I wasn't replying to you with that post...neo was the intended recipient. But how else can translocation be interpreted?

I mean it's pretty black and white. Or green and yellow as it were ;)

a plant moves sugars and starches from here to there as needed. Younger leaves act as sinks, along with other parts and older leaves act as producers the only producers I might add.

what is my Muddied vision missing here?

please clarify for me. My reading comp scores are off the charts so try me.
Click to expand...
I edited my post, I realized after you didn't originally direct that towards me. My bad.

But it is your sheer lack of appreciation for what others have done and the way you treat them from doing anything differently than you that we find offensive. How dare we have different thoughts about this sacred plant?!? I have no doubt that you've done this for a long time and produced some pretty good product. As they say, there are lots of ways to skin a deer.

Glad that your reading comprehension scores are off the charts. Bring your grammatical skills up to speed and perhaps the high opinion you have of yourself can be expressed more astutely.
 
SunJ

SunJ

Member
joe macclennan said:
I am still waiting to be stimulated by some real evidence pointing to the benefits of defoliation.
Click to expand...
Not sure what else you want... refer to that thread... start with page 120 or so... figure it out from there... You wanted real evidence... he has it!
 
neo12345

neo12345

Well-Known Member
joe macclennan said:
did you even read the link about translocation? Specifically the part about younger leaves being sinks and the older ones being producers????

obviously not.
Click to expand...
Yes I read it, but in no part of it can I find the bit about translocation stopping after leaf removal. I think you just made that bit up? Let's see some proof of it then?

You probably should have googled the effect of defoliation on translocation in a plant, then maybe you'd have known that?

My question still stands about having your plant use energy to grow or to store it up, which is better?
 
J

joe macclennan

Well-Known Member
SunJ said:
I edited my post, I realized after you didn't originally direct that towards me. My bad.

But it is your sheer lack of appreciation for what others have done and the way you treat them from doing anything differently than you that we find offensive. How dare we have different thoughts about this sacred plant?!? I have no doubt that you've done this for a long time and produced some pretty good product. As they say, there are lots of ways to skin a deer.

Glad that your reading comprehension scores are off the charts. Bring your grammatical skills up to speed and perhaps the high opinion you have of yourself can be expressed more astutely.
Click to expand...
grammar bahhh! lol no fun

please explain how you view the process of translocation and photosynthesis differently than I.

I am not being facetious here. I would like to know.
 
mr2shim

mr2shim

Well-Known Member
SunJ said:
I edited my post, I realized after you didn't originally direct that towards me. My bad.

But it is your sheer lack of appreciation for what others have done and the way you treat them from doing anything differently than you that we find offensive. How dare we have different thoughts about this sacred plant?!? I have no doubt that you've done this for a long time and produced some pretty good product. As they say, there are lots of ways to skin a deer.

Glad that your reading comprehension scores are off the charts. Bring your grammatical skills up to speed and perhaps the high opinion you have of yourself can be expressed more astutely.
Click to expand...
If you go back and read from when I started posting in this thread, 5 or 6 pages ago. I made a comment about pro defoliation or pruning or whatever the fuck you want to call it and that sent mr. joe's panties into a bunch. Hell I even stated I didn't read most of this thread and was just making a comment about my experience but that still offended the almighty joe..

As it played out

mr2shim said:
That's impressive stickybuds, I've been defoliating my plants for some time, not to the extreme that you go but still.

Can't argue with people here, they grow a couple plants and all the sudden have a masters in botany.
Click to expand...
joe macclennan said:
edit: and hey mrshim..you don't need a masters to understand translocation...just a little reading comprehension. Which apparently many are lacking here.
Click to expand...
mr2shim said:
To be honest I haven't read, nor do I plan on reading the entire thread. Whatever he did(at least that's what he is claiming) turned out well. I personally do trim leaves that get no light, I probably wouldn't ever trim off 99% of the leaves though.
Click to expand...

joe macclennan said:
well you don't have to read the whole thread mrshim. google is your friend



translocation....look it up
Click to expand...
Pretty confrontational person if you ask me. I stand by what I originally said, which was directed at nobody. This thread, amongst many prove my statement true. You can't have conversations with some people here, they immediately start attacking the way you grow because they disagree.

You can't have sensible debates with people like that, you just can't. They're right, you're wrong. That's the only way they will ever see it.
 
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