I Don't Give A **** About You Sellers...

fdd2blk said:

nobody likes an angry pothead. why are all the yes voters so angry?

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You're kidding right?
The Yes people (especially myself) have been attacked over and over again. Heck, I've even been threatened. (LOL)

But it does get frustrating when people say things like "Let's treat marijuana like alcohol" or "Man ... if they legalized it they could tax" only to see people complain about them being in Prop 19 and telling people to vote no.

It gets frustrating to have people ignore unquestionable facts and unwilling to state they are/were wrong. Not to mention all the hard work activists have worked to pass medical marijuana initiatives only to see medical marijuana patients betray the very people who helped them get their medicine.

I'm not angry at all ... I'm simply looking for a good debate.
But when you prove someone is 100% false and they pretend it didn't happen ... how much more polite can you get?

hey fdd, your a mod right? werent you and veggie raging pretty bad on the keyboard in my thread? u even made an angry face and locked it lol.

as for my emotions, well it just appalls me the concept of why people want to be greedy instead of being happy for all, and most important why they are complaining about taxes? sir if yall dont like taxes then MOVE. CA is the highest taxing state in the country. i bet you paid taxes on the computer your typing on now. or the electricity your using now.

vradd said:

hey fdd, your a mod right? werent you and veggie raging pretty bad on the keyboard in my thread? u even made an angry face and locked it lol.

as for my emotions, well it just appalls me the concept of why people want to be greedy instead of being happy for all, and most important why they are complaining about taxes? sir if yall dont like taxes then MOVE. CA is the highest taxing state in the country. i bet you paid taxes on the computer your typing on now. or the electricity your using now.

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i locked the thread because the people on the yes side can't stop with the attacks.

what's an "angry face"? this one ... ?

well at least now i know not to take this forum too seriously now if they hire mods with characterizations like yours sir

It sure does seem like anyone who voices their opinion about not liking the construction of the bill is attacked and called greedy or ignorant, we all have the right to vote as we please, Im sure there are those out there that will simply vote no because they feel it will effect their income, but there is also others like myself that are willing to wait until 2012 and vote yes for a much better piece of legislation. Bottom line for me assuming I do understand the verbage correctly is prop19 will not effect me as an existing medical patient, but I cant even be sure of that because of the way the bill is worded, any assumptions as to what is going to happen if it passes is pure speculation at this point, we can all take our best guesses but no one knows for sure.

vradd said:

well at least now i know not to take this forum too seriously now if they hire mods with characterizations like yours sir

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see, an attack. just as stated. so predictable.

I sure wish the bill spelled out some sort of statewide regulations for the maximum amount of fees and taxes any local jurisdictions could charge for annual garden fees, fees per sq. foot, fee for registering with the county/city etc.

Your right fdd, if you even mention that you dont support prop19 it seems you get a barrage of comments on how greedy and ignorant you must be....

BluffinCali said:

I sure wish the bill spelled out some sort of statewide regulations for the maximum amount of fees and taxes any local jurisdictions could charge for annual garden fees, fees per sq. foot, fee for registering with the county/city etc.

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I hear ya ... but ultimately it would be up to citizens in each city to help create sensible tax laws regarding commercial. Remember, Prop 19 only allows the OPTION of commercial sale. It's main purpose is to legalize the possession, use, cultivation, and transportation of marijuana for adults 21+. All of that is tax free.

fdd2blk said:

see, an attack. just as stated. so predictable.

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your mind tricks wont work on me old man. i am strong in the force.

but i also agree we are all entitled to our opinions. we are merely 4-5 votes compared to the rest of the state.

vradd said:

your mind tricks wont work on me old man. i am strong in the force.

but i also agree we are all entitled to our opinions. we are merely 4-5 votes compared to the rest of the state.

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keep going with the name calling.

Wouldnt it be up to a board of supervisors in each city to pass their own restrictions, regulations and fee amounts? To my understanding the fees and taxes are not just limited to commercial operations, I know you disagree with that, but they way the darn bill is worded there is no way to be sure. The only positive part I like is the fact that it may be a step in the right direction and the rules/regulations could be amended in the future, but how long would it take for any amendments to happen, I really dont know. I dont mind paying a sales tax if I purchased marijuana, I dont even mind paying a small reasonable fee for having a garden, but the fact that there is no sort of cap for what counties/cities could charge really bugs me. At this point Im personally not freaking out whether it passes or not, I may just abstain from the vote cause I dont see myself changing to a yes vote, I really hope if the bills does pass that it does have a positive effect for everyone in our state, but I think we will see a boom in huge commercial grows mainly indoors, but also outdoors aswell, I forget which tobacco company, I think phillip morris if I remember right has already purchased some outrageous amount of forest land up in the emerald triangle preparing for legalization, maybe thats a good thing, but I honestly dont know how things will be impacted, but in no way would I personally ever vote againist legalization because I was afraid it would cut into my own profits, bottom line is their will always be market for superior quality but their will just be an huge increase in competition....we shall see

BluffinCali said:

Wouldnt it be up to a board of supervisors in each city to pass their own restrictions, regulations and fee amounts? To my understanding the fees and taxes are not just limited to commercial operations, I know you disagree with that, but they way the darn bill is worded there is no way to be sure. The only positive part I like is the fact that it may be a step in the right direction and the rules/regulations could be amended in the future, but how long would it take for any amendments to happen, I really dont know. I dont mind paying a sales tax if I purchased marijuana, I dont even mind paying a small reasonable fee for having a garden, but the fact that there is no sort of cap for what counties/cities could charge really bugs me. At this point Im personally not freaking out whether it passes or not, I may just abstain from the vote cause I dont see myself changing to a yes vote, I really hope if the bills does pass that it does have a positive effect for everyone in our state, but I think we will see a boom in huge commercial grows mainly indoors, but also outdoors aswell, I forget which tobacco company, I think phillip morris if I remember right has already purchased some outrageous amount of forest land up in the emerald triangle preparing for legalization, maybe thats a good thing, but I honestly dont know how things will be impacted, but in no way would I personally ever vote againist legalization because I was afraid it would cut into my own profits, bottom line is their will always be market for superior quality but their will just be an huge increase in competition....we shall see

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It would be up to local officials to make tax laws ... indeed. But you and others as citizens have a right to speak loud and have your voice heard.

And Prop 19 is pretty clear regarding taxation. No where in the section regarding what cities are allowed to tax does it mention section 11300. 11300 is the section regarding personal use and cultivation.

If Prop 19 doesn't say they can tax 11300, then it is unlawful for a city to do so.

The taxation section of Prop 19 really isn't that big:

Section 11302: Imposition and Collection of Taxes and Fees

(a) Any ordinance, regulation or other act adopted pursuant to section 11301 may include imposition of appropriate general, special or excise, transfer or transaction taxes, benefit assessments, or fees, on any activity authorized pursuant to such enactment, in order to permit the local government to raise revenue, or to recoup any direct or indirect costs associated with the authorized activity, or the permitting or licensing scheme, including without limitation: administration; applications and issuance of licenses or permits; inspection of licensed premises and other enforcement of ordinances adopted under section 11301, including enforcement against unauthorized activities.
(b) Any licensed premises shall be responsible for paying all federal, state and local taxes, fees, fines, penalties or other financial responsibility imposed on all or similarly situated businesses, facilities or premises, including without limitation income taxes, business taxes, license fees, and property taxes, without regard to or identification of the business or items or services sold.

See ... it only speaks of section 11301 with regards to taxation. 11301 is commercial regulation.

do we all agree that they can only present whats actually on paper?
like, their cant be some secret memo right? wat about changes prior to nov 2nd? can that happen?

vradd said:

do we all agree that they can only present whats actually on paper?
like, their cant be some secret memo right? wat about changes prior to nov 2nd? can that happen?

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Correct. Nothing can be implied. What you see is what you get with regards to Prop 19.

No changes could be made without reintroducing the proposition and regaining signatures. There are time limits as well if im not mistakes. So pretty much impossible.

If indeed the case is local counties/cities arent going to be taxing culitvation of their 5x5 area by the sq. footage, or any annual garden taxes/fees, basicly any fee or tax to the private person except for sales tax when purchasing marijuana, then I think that would clear up part of my own personal issues. I also want to be guaranteed that it wont in any way effect the current medical rights patients have through prop215 as it is today, which I dont know if anyone can guarantee that it wont. My worry has never been about prop19 effecting any profits I may make, its always been about what how far is the government going to go with the "taxing, regulating and controling" of marijuana, I do think marijuana should be legal for any adult, its less harmful than tobacco or alcohol with very little chance for any kind of physical addiction, it truely is a miracle plant that one day will be looked at very differently than what early political propaganda did to generations. Its insane that our government hardly even allows for the correct and affective studying of marijuana, who knows how all different cannabinoids could help suffering people. Anyways sorry for going on, those have been most of problems Im having with prop19, it seems if it were a more plainly written so people had a clearer understanding of how the bill would directly effect the main issue of legalization and at what cost to everyone in our state and mainly the medical community as a whole.

bluffincali, do you agree that if its being stated on paper that, that is the intent, nothing more nothing less? and that the govt would be held to uphold what they are presenting in black and white?

i think people are paranoid that the govt is on a secret plot to have secret agendas. well remember if they did it would be the politicians who would be supporting it, WE THE PEOPLE elect who we want to represent our rights.

this isnt area 51 people are forgetting that this is just a plant. a natural element in the life kingdom

I think alot of the bill and the way its worded can be interpreted in slightly different ways and possibly abused by local governments to further complicate the issue. I dont really know of anyone who is implying secret government plots, I think people are worried that if it does get passed and there are considerable problems that arise, it will take signifigant time to try and get parts of the bill amended to fix the problems. Of course "we the people" elect the officials, not sure what that has to do with the bill or why you reference area 51, Who exactly is forgetting that marijuana is a natural plant? Theres not a grip of people that use marijuana or medical patients that are opposed to this bill solely because they're thinking they wont be able to sell their own pot, there are some fundamental problems with this bill and maybe its just the way its worded but its obvious that a large portion can be interpreted differently. If I was the average purely recreational user without a recommendation then I imagine I would be all for this bill cause it would allow to grow 1 plant outside or a few inside, cause thats all thats fitting in 5x5 area, none of this has anything to do with govt. conspiracies, not sure where that idea came from.

its being intrepetid in many ways due in part to paranoia , the people who are used to a set standard now might have to readjust themselves as our society moves forward. do you think the people will let the cities go crazy on these ordinances? do you think city councils would risk mass protests if they tried to get to wild with taxation?

govt sets high taxes->people dont like and mass protests begin->no one buys pot and perhaps it gets boycotted, and the underground market continues->cops are being brought in to maintain these peaceful protests->cops are working over time because of this and no revenue is being brought in with said taxation money.

and if something does goes wrong with the measure, it would just as easily be able to get a court order on it to put it on hold if need be, its the same thing with gay marriages, one day its legal next day court has a hold on it. im sure they would have the same power to put a hold on pot if needed.

the area 51 comment was just extra jibberish to the paranoia statements.

again its the people who are taking a proposition thats clearly written in black and white text and trying to read inbetween the fine lines when their is none. their is none because it would be illegal if their was a fine print. remember this prop is to give power to your local jurisdiction. if they decide not to be tax friendly maybe its because theirs a bigger picture involved because they have reports of high potential revenue, or maybe it'll play out backwards and tax more for those who grow less because they'd see other cities make up their lowered friendlier taxes by the amount of those who participate.

again no one really knows how this would pan out, but if its already been proven countless times with actual text that it WILL NOT affect 215 users one bit, then why not vote yes? it helps you it helps me and it helps start getting the roots down into the 'system' that if we can make this work as a society maybe big brother change its views and other states will follow suite.

nothings perfect the first time around but if your truley supportive of pot and your not a big grower then why not. lets see wat happens. remember we are still considered a new and young country. all we gotta do is keep standing up for ourselves and we will be heard.

I dont expect it to be perfect, but to say its black and white I believe is a bit of an exaggeration, but I totally understand why you support the bill, but at the same time it seems like the "yes voters" dont understand how anyone who smokes pot could oppose this bill. On the surface it does seem strange and for those out their that are just voting no because their indeed scared about not be able to move their own product, well that is a tad greedy, but who am I or anyone else to tell someone dont think about yourself, think about the greater good, its just not a for sure thing the prop19 is actually for the greater good. I dont see one way this bill will help me, actually I know for a fact that this bill will do nothing to help me in any way,shape or form. Ive had my recommendation since 2003, Ive gone through the different ups and downs and seen how much prop215 has even made this notion of legalization actually have a chance to pass, that is all because of the slow de-sensitizing of our society to the fact that marijuana is one of the safest drugs on the planet, and whether used recreationally or medical purposes for those who choose to take advantage of maybe the most incredible plant we've been blessed with. Its just like you last sentence implies "lets vote yes and see what happens...", Id like to vote and know what will happen if a particular bill passes, thats how voting works, if not how do you actually make an informed vote if all you know is the wording but not the actual effect it will have in our state.