How the hell do I get a male plant from TGA!?!?!?!

tusseltussel said:

oh that was definetly me..... A male is a male and a female is a female or herm genetics are not determined by environment. if that excert from the grow bible were true all the plants I grew from 1996-2000 would have been male because I had the shittiest environment in the world. boys will be boys

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A male is a male, and a female is a female, only once it becomes a male or female.

Take a human baby for instance (Bad example, but we'll use it). While its sex is determined at birth, it shows no physical sexual traits until around 3 months into growth and division. This is where you guys are getting caught up. Cannabis plants don't reproduce like us. We have distinct sex chromosomes, XX and XY, that when they meet IN A SINGLE COMBINATION (one egg, one sperm), sex is determined.

The development of a seed is much different from this. You have millions of sperm cells, millions of eggs (figurative labeling of course), and an unknown course of sexual combination. It is impossible to determine the sex of a seed by studying its genetic composition, because its sex isn't determined until a later stage in cell division. In other words, you could not dissect a seed and determine its gender, but you could dissect an embryo and determine its sex.

Plant reproduction is MUCH more complicated than mammal reproduction, especially regarding dioecious plants. It is still under research.

Another important point to make is, saying something is temperature dependent doesn't mean that its outcome is predictable. It simply means that temperature plays a role in determining the possibilities of gender.

In other words, it isn't like hot temps = males and low temps = females.

Its more like, low temps = desirable conditions for female sex-determination, high temps = desirable conditions for male sex-determination

bamacheese said:

Let me explain this to you, if you are willing to open your ears for a second...

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Nice condescension right out of the gate.

bamacheese said:

Sex, or gender, for almost every existent eukaryote (multi-cellular organism), is determined through a process called meiosis. I'm not going to patronize you by explaining what meiosis is, if you aren't aware you can look it up, but I have a feeling you are very well aware of the process.

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Odd you do not really understand what you are condescending about.

bamacheese said:

The question then becomes what determines gender, and when it is determined. In homosapiens, for example, an XY sex-determination system plays out, where specific sex chromosomes (XX) and (XY) have been isolated during meiosis, and shown at certain combinations to produce certain results. This type of sex-determination can also be found in a few species of plants, Ginkgo being a well known one.

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Humans are either male or female at conception, just like cannabis.

bamacheese said:

Another type of sex-determination system is called "Temperature-dependent sex-determinaion". It has been well documented in numerous reptile species, and is currently being studied for hundreds of dioecious flowers.

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and there is absolutely no evidence that environment plays a role in sex determination in cannabis. Reptiles? Ginkgo?

bamacheese said:

For most dioecious plants, including cannabis, the type of sex-determination system the plant uses is largely unknown. Our knowledge regarding its function is increasing day by day.

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I am positive that sex in cannabis is determined at the moment of conception. There is no compelling evidence to make me think otherwise. you have certainly not offered any.

bamacheese said:

Hopefully you will take a minute to look up exactly how gender is determined throughout the animal world, it is remarkably fascinating.

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I am way ahead of you. I'll probably jerk off to some animal porn later.

bamacheese said:

I hope one day as a species we will better understand sex-determination in the plant world, because it is simply unsolved at this point in time.

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Nope.

The sex of a marijuana plant is determined the moment of fertilization. The female chromosomes link up with the chromosomes of the male. However, it is only the male chromosomes that determine the sex of the plant. A female haploid will always have an x in their 8th chromosome, it is up to the genetics of the male haploid to decide whether it pairs an x or a y onto the female chromosome. If the male chromosome is an x chromosome, the plant will be a female. If it is a y chromosome then the plant will be a male.
http://www.mmj-guide.com/Cannabis-and-Sex.html

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ahhhh Trousers, you have been known to chuck some pollen if i'm not mistaken right??? have you worked with tga genetics? I have not yet cracked into the tga line but will be soon.

Trousers said:

Nice condescension right out of the gate.



Odd you do not really understand what you are condescending about.





Humans are either male or female at conception, just like cannabis.



and there is absolutely no evidence that environment plays a role in sex determination in cannabis. Reptiles? Ginkgo?



I am positive that sex in cannabis is determined at the moment of conception. There is no compelling evidence to make me think otherwise. you have certainly not offered any.



I am way ahead of you. I'll probably jerk off to some animal porn later.




Nope.

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Better wear my panties tomorrow, it's going to be cold and really I just don't want to risk it.

I KNOW this will start another round of "you don't know wtf you are talking about" when it comes to male/female ratios...' so...

Plants are not humans- they are not restricted to the same number of X and Y chromosones and have a much wider variation of combinations...X-Y x-y X-Yy XXYY XXy etc...

You aren't getting males because you are keeping your conditions 'optimal' for the female genetics of the XxYy seeds to be dominant instead of male or hermie....
you need higher temps, flowering light, higher nitrogen etc.. you have to stress them a bit in the sprouting/seedling stage to get the stabilized genetics to 'show male'... the 'true' males/females make up only about 10-15% of seeds.. the rest are male dominant/female dominant/equal genetically/hermie in their DNA (X & Y Chromosomes) What dominates is whatever is 'coerced" to show during the sprouting and early vegging period... though a "true" male/Female or Hermie can NOT be changed and will show up regardless....

We only get one Male out of 50-60 seeds popped, and the occasional Hermie... the rest is NOT because we got "true" females (because they can/do hermie if not treated right) but they are female in trait because of how they are grown....or the recessive male gene rears it's ugly head and makes a hermie.

Don't know how well I put that, hope it's not too rambling... but you get the idea...

Trousers said:

Nice condescension right out of the gate.



Odd you do not really understand what you are condescending about.





Humans are either male or female at conception, just like cannabis.



and there is absolutely no evidence that environment plays a role in sex determination in cannabis. Reptiles? Ginkgo?



I am positive that sex in cannabis is determined at the moment of conception. There is no compelling evidence to make me think otherwise. you have certainly not offered any.



I am way ahead of you. I'll probably jerk off to some animal porn later.




Nope.

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I think we are on totally different levels of existence. I'll take the sub-par level. You can have the pedestal.

You just provided a link to back up your opinion regarding sex-determination in Cannabis plants. I clicked on it, and clicked on "About Me". The publisher is a guy name Neil. A Medical patient. No doctorate. No studies in plant genetics. No bachelor's degree. No credibility.

I will go out on a limb and say that Subcool has a little bit more insight regarding sex-determination in Cannabis than Neil does.

Can you offer anything better?
If environment played a role in sex for cannabis, you would think that feminized seeds would produce males.
The sex of the plant is definitely determined in the seed in feminized seeds, so why not in regular ones?

pretty good read
http://boards.cannabis.com/basic-growing/133478-almost-final-answer-what-determines-sex.html

Trousers said:

Can you offer anything better?
If environment played a role in sex for cannabis, you would think that feminized seeds would produce males.
The sex of the plant is definitely determined in the seed in feminized seeds, so why not in regular ones?

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Because in regular seeds, Silver Colloidial hasn't been used to change the genetic composition to that equal of an XX and XX. With regular seeds, you have the combination of XX and XY, not to mention the recessive combinations of XXYX, XXYY, XYXY, XYYY, XXXY, YYXY, etc.

Plant genetics are way more complicated than human genetics.

Feminized seeds are a whole different topic. You can create "feminized" seeds by forcing a female to herm out, then pollinating another female with the herm flowers.

so i guess these people are wasting there time if not determined in seed and you can make a seed into any sex you want it to be like the creator

bamacheese said:

Because in regular seeds, Silver Colloidial hasn't been used to change the genetic composition to that equal of an XX and XX. With regular seeds, you have the combination of XX and XY, not to mention the recessive combinations of XXYX, XXYY, XYXY, XYYY, XXXY, YYXY, etc.

Plant genetics are way more complicated than human genetics.

Feminized seeds are a whole different topic. You can create "feminized" seeds by forcing a female to herm out, then pollinating another female with the herm flowers.

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Yes and that does not mean that sex isn't determined in the seed.
Feminized seeds have the sex pre-determined. Why not regular seeds?

Trousers said:

Yes and that does not mean that sex isn't determined in the seed.
Feminized seeds have the sex pre-determined. Why not regular seeds?

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Because regular seeds have not been manipulated to achieve a desirable sexual outcome. Feminized seeds have been manipulated by humans, using either Silver Colloidial, forcing hermie flowers, and there is also a chemical that starts with a G that is used to produce feminized flowers.

Regular seeds have not been manipulated to achieve a certain outcome.

I have a better question for you....If you think that the sex of regular seeds in pre-determined, how would you go about proving it genetically with simply the DNA of the seed?

bamacheese said:

Because regular seeds have not been manipulated to achieve a desirable sexual outcome. Feminized seeds have been manipulated by humans, using either Silver Colloidial, forcing hermie flowers, and there is also a chemical that starts with a G that is used to produce feminized flowers.

Regular seeds have not been manipulated to achieve a certain outcome.

I have a better question for you....If you think that the sex of regular seeds in pre-determined, how would you go about proving it genetically with simply the DNA of the seed?

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Yes, the G you're looking for is Gillerbic Acid

no-- not saying that... please read again...
Not saying you can change the sex-- that is already determined in the seed...

HOWEVER: Because Cannabis has MULTIPLE sets of X & Y Chromosomes - both dominant and recessive- you CAN increase the # of plants that are female by REPRESSING the genes that would have made them show as hermaphrodites, or hermaphroditic males (Show as male early-- then start getting female calyx's later) By making the environment as 'perfect" as possible...

In Nature- if all the plants in one area are female, a few will pop-male pods ;ate in flower...
Why/how do you think that is?
It is environmental AND genetic-- to ensure the continuation of that line... plant pheromones are released that effects the genetic reactions of all the plants in the area-- if there are NO male pheromones, those plants with the highest number of recessive males genes will then react chemically by not actually "changing" but by simply expressing it's genetic traits that would NOT have been expressed if there were a true MALE in the grow area!

It's a Bio-Chemical thing... thank GOD it doesn't work in people!!!

As for the seed chart-- how many people have tried this to ensure females--- and still got males/hermies anyway??
Quite a few ! Because- despite the genetics to enable the seed to be female, it STILL contained recessive male genes that got triggered by a less than optimal environment (light leaks, temps off, nutes or pH off) OR because we now ensure ALL FEMALE grow rooms!!!

IF these plants were grown in a more natural environment for a cycle as long as an outdoor grow-- EVERY grow would have at least a few Hermies due to that same bio-chemical reaction to "All Girl" rooms!

This does NOT apply to feminized seeds- as they are chemically and genetically altered.. it only applies to "natural" seeds....

LadyZandra said:

no-- not saying that... please read again...
Not saying you can change the sex-- that is already determined in the seed...

HOWEVER: Because Cannabis has MULTIPLE sets of X & Y Chromosomes - both dominant and recessive- you CAN increase the # of plants that are female by REPRESSING the genes that would have made them show as hermaphrodites, or hermaphroditic males (Show as male early-- then start getting female calyx's later) By making the environment as 'perfect" as possible...

In Nature- if all the plants in one area are female, a few will pop-male pods ;ate in flower...
Why/how do you think that is?
It is environmental AND genetic-- to ensure the continuation of that line... plant pheromones are released that effects the genetic reactions of all the plants in the area-- if there are NO male pheromones, those plants with the highest number of recessive males genes will then react chemically by not actually "changing" but by simply expressing it's genetic traits that would NOT have been expressed if there were a true MALE in the grow area!

It's a Bio-Chemical thing... thank GOD it doesn't work in people!!!

As for the seed chart-- how many people have tried this to ensure females--- and still got males/hermies anyway??
Quite a few ! Because- despite the genetics to enable the seed to be female, it STILL contained recessive male genes that got triggered by a less than optimal environment (light leaks, temps off, nutes or pH off) OR because we now ensure ALL FEMALE grow rooms!!!

IF these plants were grown in a more natural environment for a cycle as long as an outdoor grow-- EVERY grow would have at least a few Hermies due to that same bio-chemical reaction to "All Girl" rooms!

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Actually, collidial silver is theorized to work in humans, but not in the same way... is shown to have some antibacterial properties (when done in vitro, nothing in vivo yet) and is used by NASA as a drinking water disinfectant.

Bwahahahhahhahahhaha..whats good for headaches?

Coho said:

Bwahahahhahhahahhaha..whats good for headaches?

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Depends if the cause of the headache is a prussic acid attack in a mall.. if it is, rush to the photo lab and dilute the developer w/warm.. not hot, not cold.. warm water 15:1 and chug it, followed by an epi-pen thigh stab.. quickly. hydrogen cyanide gas atks are nothing to fuck around with. That is 'Dealing with a cyanide attack 101 lesson' for today. Tune in tomorrow for more interesting chemistry that may very well save your life.


Edit: damn autocorrect

bamacheese said:

Because regular seeds have not been manipulated to achieve a desirable sexual outcome. Feminized seeds have been manipulated by humans, using either Silver Colloidial, forcing hermie flowers, and there is also a chemical that starts with a G that is used to produce feminized flowers.

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Feminized seeds occur naturally. You do not need to use chemicals. It is a normal and natural survival mechanism. It does not alter the dna.

bamacheese said:

Regular seeds have not been manipulated to achieve a certain outcome.

I have a better question for you....If you think that the sex of regular seeds in pre-determined, how would you go about proving it genetically with simply the DNA of the seed?

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I wouldn't. From my experience and the studies I have read, I believe that sex is predetermined. No one has offered me any evidence that would make me think otherwise.

bamacheese said:

This is really starting to piss me off!!! Most people wouldn't complain about getting all female plants, but I'm trying to breed and keep these genetics around!!!!

I've heard that if you up the seedling temp to the mid 80's, the male/female ratio will increase....Is this true? Right now I'm at a 0 to 15 male/female ratio.

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I get a 50/50 ratio... You're just unlucky I guess

LadyZandra said:

no-- not saying that... please read again...
Not saying you can change the sex-- that is already determined in the seed...

HOWEVER: Because Cannabis has MULTIPLE sets of X & Y Chromosomes - both dominant and recessive- you CAN increase the # of plants that are female by REPRESSING the genes that would have made them show as hermaphrodites, or hermaphroditic males (Show as male early-- then start getting female calyx's later) By making the environment as 'perfect" as possible...

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Are we talking about polyploid cannabis? I thought what most people grow and desire is diploid.

LadyZandra said:

In Nature- if all the plants in one area are female, a few will pop-male pods ;ate in flower...
Why/how do you think that is?
It is environmental AND genetic-- to ensure the continuation of that line... plant pheromones are released that effects the genetic reactions of all the plants in the area-- if there are NO male pheromones, those plants with the highest number of recessive males genes will then react chemically by not actually "changing" but by simply expressing it's genetic traits that would NOT have been expressed if there were a true MALE in the grow area!

It's a Bio-Chemical thing... thank GOD it doesn't work in people!!!

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If cannabis is diploid, then the environmental conditions do not make a female male or change the dna, it just activates hormones that produce male flowers.

LadyZandra said:

As for the seed chart-- how many people have tried this to ensure females--- and still got males/hermies anyway??
Quite a few ! Because- despite the genetics to enable the seed to be female, it STILL contained recessive male genes that got triggered by a less than optimal environment (light leaks, temps off, nutes or pH off) OR because we now ensure ALL FEMALE grow rooms!!!

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I still think most of what is grown is XY or XX. I also believe that every female cannabis plant in the world can produce male flowers. That does not mean they have a Y chromosome.

LadyZandra said:

IF these plants were grown in a more natural environment for a cycle as long as an outdoor grow-- EVERY grow would have at least a few Hermies due to that same bio-chemical reaction to "All Girl" rooms!

This does NOT apply to feminized seeds- as they are chemically and genetically altered.. it only applies to "natural" seeds....

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I believe you are referring to rodelization. That does not mean a plant has to have a Y chromosome to produce male flowers and pollen.

A plant that is XX and produces male flowers and pollen is not a real "hermie."

There is a company that claims to be able to determine the sex of a cannabis plant 7 days after germination.
If that is true, claims that environment weeks out can effect sex are dubious at best.

3.) Polymerase Chain Reaction PCR and Gel electrophoresis are biotechnology tools for genetic analysis. Montana Biotech has created a PCR based test for determining cannabis marijuana seedlings sex 1 week after seed germination! Cannabis sex is determined by X, Y chromosomes, kinda like humans. This test allows a technician to test for the presence of female or maleness in marijuana seedlings before even the most seasoned cultivator can tell!

http://montanabiotech.com/category/best-method-for-sex-determination-of-cannabis/

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