How exactly does space/time fabric work?

high|hgih

high|hgih

Well-Known Member
I know all the basics like how gravity works and stuff, but is there up/down/left/right? That sort of thing? I'd imagine there is, but it would take some crazy math to calculate a trip somewhere lightyears away taking gravity, axis, location, asteroids, all of that into consideration.
 
high|hgih

high|hgih

Well-Known Member
Thats true, but the idea seems right inside of the universe, everything revolves around something bigger, planets rotate around stars, and moons around planets, stars rotate around the center of galaxies, whatever that may be.. People say its a supermassive black hole, but even black holes are only theory
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
again, the bending of time/space is an analogy to describe the PERCEIVED alteration of the universe around massive objects but the metaphors of warping of time/space are merely an aid to human comprehension of forces beyond our understanding.

if you place a pencil halfway into a glass of water refraction makes the pencil appear broken, we understand that this is just a function of light and water, likewise the "warping of time and space" is merely a function of our observations of gravity's effect on objects nearby. it does not necessarily mean that actual space is actually bent, it just means you can treat it that way.

shooting nine-ball on a slightly warped pool table does not mean that the laws of physics are broken on that pool table, it means you need to measure it better (or with tools not currently available)

a thousand years ago the sun revolved around the earth, and the sky was a giant's skull with holes in it. when new techniques and technologies come about to measure and quantify gravity's effects on nearby objects your grandkids will make fun of you for believing that the Aether could be warped by something as simple as gravity, when they can now prove it is trans-dimensional Eldar sorcerers battling for supremacy with the Chaos Gods in the madness of the Warp that causes these fluctuations in measurements.

Long Live the Emperor of Man!
Abhor the mutant!
Purge the Unclean!
The Emperor Preserves!
The Emperor Protects!
 
Doer

Doer

Well-Known Member
No. It actually compresses and decompresses, perhaps enough to measure with lasers. That is how it passes gravity waves. The gradient is not a refraction. It is a magnification. So it is curved.

A big mass of a Star, let's say, (doesn't have to be a star) has shouldered aside a sufficient quantity of space itself. A marble in the Jello. The Space has no where to go, being more of a solid than, say, liquid. So it compresses to get out of the way. That compression forms gradient of Space Density. The most dense space is at the surface. How dense? It is proportional to the mass that pushed it aside. The more dense the space the easier for matter to move relative to other matter and that is "all" that gravity is.

We just don't know, yet, the field, like the electromagnetic field. There should be a field "force" that describes how matter is effected by Space Density. The so-called Higgs field. The are crunching the numbers,. but no Higgs, yet.

The high school explanations were blown a long time ago. Now we are waiting on The Large Hadron Collider to get some fundamental data. And also, the laser experiment results of Dr. Kip Thone and crew.
 
eye exaggerate

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
Dr Kynes said:
again, the bending of time/space is an analogy to describe the PERCEIVED alteration of the universe around massive objects but the metaphors of warping of time/space are merely an aid to human comprehension of forces beyond our understanding.

if you place a pencil halfway into a glass of water refraction makes the pencil appear broken, we understand that this is just a function of light and water, likewise the "warping of time and space" is merely a function of our observations of gravity's effect on objects nearby. it does not necessarily mean that actual space is actually bent, it just means you can treat it that way.

shooting nine-ball on a slightly warped pool table does not mean that the laws of physics are broken on that pool table, it means you need to measure it better (or with tools not currently available)

a thousand years ago the sun revolved around the earth, and the sky was a giant's skull with holes in it. when new techniques and technologies come about to measure and quantify gravity's effects on nearby objects your grandkids will make fun of you for believing that the Aether could be warped by something as simple as gravity, when they can now prove it is trans-dimensional Eldar sorcerers battling for supremacy with the Chaos Gods in the madness of the Warp that causes these fluctuations in measurements.

Long Live the Emperor of Man!
Abhor the mutant!
Purge the Unclean!
The Emperor Preserves!
The Emperor Protects!
Click to expand...

...funny as well that something infinite would lend itself to being measured. I mean, really, approximations and math make odd bedfellows, but they've birthed a lot of plastic devices. :shock:


...where were you a thousand years ago? :)
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Doer said:
No. It actually compresses and decompresses, perhaps enough to measure with lasers. That is how it passes gravity waves. The gradient is not a refraction. It is a magnification. So it is curved.

A big mass of a Star, let's say, (doesn't have to be a star) has shouldered aside a sufficient quantity of space itself. A marble in the Jello. The Space has no where to go, being more of a solid than, say, liquid. So it compresses to get out of the way. That compression forms gradient of Space Density. The most dense space is at the surface. How dense? It is proportional to the mass that pushed it aside. The more dense the space the easier for matter to move relative to other matter and that is "all" that gravity is.

We just don't know, yet, the field, like the electromagnetic field. There should be a field "force" that describes how matter is effected by Space Density. The so-called Higgs field. The are crunching the numbers,. but no Higgs, yet.

The high school explanations were blown a long time ago. Now we are waiting on The Large Hadron Collider to get some fundamental data. And also, the laser experiment results of Dr. Kip Thone and crew.
Click to expand...

and until anton von luewnhook, diseases were caused by evil spirits.

the seeming bend in the fabric of space and the alteration of time are entirely mathematical and observational.
a laser seems to bend when exposed to gravity... mathematically...
time compresses when you accelerate... theoretically...
a massive object bends space and time... as far as we can tell mathematically.


current theories and explanations are not the final word. just like the heliocentric universe, the theory that all the world was created in six days by magic beard power (which was an adequate theory until science expanded to show it was just a fantasical story) or the insistence that the earth is flat. all these FALSE theories were vehemently defended by adherents (and still are today, but now we call these guys nutcases) the claims and defenses based on mathematical models, theoretical physics and elaborate hypothesis drafted by people who are driven to "publish or perish" are no more likely than the "biblical scholarship" of the council of mycene

since everything we can see measure or contemplate has mass, and mass is the prisoner of gravity, there can be no theory devised that explains observed or hypothesized effects which do not call for the bending of nothingness to the influences of somethingness. this logical leap may be considered good science and sound theory now, but in the future it could be considered as ludicrous as trepanation to alleviate the obvious demonic possession of those infected with Y.pestis.

if a tree falls in the forest and no-one is around to hear it does it make a noise?

i do not believe that space bends to the whim of gravity any more than i believe the conclusion that because no-body observed the noise that the tree fell silently. No-one has conclusively proved to the standard of US law that hitler ever ordered a single jew into a crematorium, and since it is not proven, are the concentration camps and the holocaust merely myths of a bygone age? after all, it was never proven... now it's all just theory!

i have read some of the writings of kip thorne (pornstar name jokes held in abeyance) and his ideas seemed to be the same sort of pseudo-profundity that deepak choprah peddles, but with more math.
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
eye exaggerate said:
...funny as well that something infinite would lend itself to being measured. I mean, really, approximations and math make odd bedfellows, but they've birthed a lot of plastic devices. :shock:


...where were you a thousand years ago? :)
Click to expand...
mad claims that the urine of gaulish children turned iron into steel served rome well for hundreds of years before the legion smiths determined that just any old piss would do. now we know that piss is not used at alll in the process of steeling iron. the previous assumptions led to success, but does this mean they were correct?

i dont have to have been there. i can read. i am not standing next to you either, but i still believe you wrote that absurd statement. i do not have to have witnessed the actual writing of Plato's Republic to read it later, just like i9 do not have to stand in the massive pile of discarded tissues and cru8sty socks which i assume litter the area around your computer to respond to your japes.

also, German Scheisse Porn ? really? you should be ashamed. download some good clean tentacle hentai like a god fearing christian.
 
eye exaggerate

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
Dr Kynes said:
mad claims that the urine of gaulish children turned iron into steel served rome well for hundreds of years before the legion smiths determined that just any old piss would do. now we know that piss is not used at alll in the process of steeling iron. the previous assumptions led to success, but does this mean they were correct?

i dont have to have been there. i can read. i am not standing next to you either, but i still believe you wrote that absurd statement. i do not have to have witnessed the actual writing of Plato's Republic to read it later, just like i9 do not have to stand in the massive pile of discarded tissues and cru8sty socks which i assume litter the area around your computer to respond to your japes.

also, German Scheisse Porn ? really? you should be ashamed. download some good clean tentacle hentai like a god fearing christian.
Click to expand...
...who the what and the where now? Clean socks - check. Organized work area (within non-clinical "ooooo germs!" standards) - check. Ability to read past one's monocle - check, please.
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
Ask the woman who wears it! cn

Click to expand...
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yes, if star trek is correct, the future will be filled with mysterious time/space fabrics which bend in ways we cannot predict, and resist even the mildest forces of gravity. the future looks hopeful and bright
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
What are little Vulcan girls made of? ...
T'polymer!
(Seven of Nine's were real, at least. Highly illogical.) cn
 
Doer

Doer

Well-Known Member
Dr Kynes said:
and until anton von luewnhook, diseases were caused by evil spirits.

the seeming bend in the fabric of space and the alteration of time are entirely mathematical and observational.
a laser seems to bend when exposed to gravity... mathematically...
time compresses when you accelerate... theoretically...
a massive object bends space and time... as far as we can tell mathematically.


current theories and explanations are not the final word. just like the heliocentric universe, the theory that all the world was created in six days by magic beard power (which was an adequate theory until science expanded to show it was just a fantasical story) or the insistence that the earth is flat. all these FALSE theories were vehemently defended by adherents (and still are today, but now we call these guys nutcases) the claims and defenses based on mathematical models, theoretical physics and elaborate hypothesis drafted by people who are driven to "publish or perish" are no more likely than the "biblical scholarship" of the council of mycene

since everything we can see measure or contemplate has mass, and mass is the prisoner of gravity, there can be no theory devised that explains observed or hypothesized effects which do not call for the bending of nothingness to the influences of somethingness. this logical leap may be considered good science and sound theory now, but in the future it could be considered as ludicrous as trepanation to alleviate the obvious demonic possession of those infected with Y.pestis.

if a tree falls in the forest and no-one is around to hear it does it make a noise?

i do not believe that space bends to the whim of gravity any more than i believe the conclusion that because no-body observed the noise that the tree fell silently. No-one has conclusively proved to the standard of US law that hitler ever ordered a single jew into a crematorium, and since it is not proven, are the concentration camps and the holocaust merely myths of a bygone age? after all, it was never proven... now it's all just theory!

i have read some of the writings of kip thorne (pornstar name jokes held in abeyance) and his ideas seemed to be the same sort of pseudo-profundity that deepak choprah peddles, but with more math.
Click to expand...
Hey dude! OK. It's all just theory, and when we add, "and you too" to the rant it seems more like you describe yourself. No one is being pseudo-profundo, but you.
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Dr Kynes said:
and until anton von luewnhook, diseases were caused by evil spirits.

the seeming bend in the fabric of space and the alteration of time are entirely mathematical and observational.
a laser seems to bend when exposed to gravity... mathematically...
time compresses when you accelerate... theoretically...
a massive object bends space and time... as far as we can tell mathematically.
Click to expand...
So when something is observational, we call that empirical evidence.
Starlight (and by extension laser light) seems to bend when exposed to gravity, first predicted by math, then confirmed by observation
Time dilation, first predicted by math, confirmed by observation
Fabric of spacetime bending, predicted by math, all observations appear to confirm it

Germs, in the form of bacteria, viruses and fungi, appear to cause disease in plants and animals but has never been conclusively proven and is all just germ theory. Your ridiculously innacurate death camp analogy aside, your 'just a theory' claims rings as hollow when you say it as it does when said by a creationist.

No one's saying it is the end-all-be-all final answer but to claim it's merely perception due to something else rather than reality, well that becomes a testable hypothesis for which you need to offer up something to explain the observations if you want anyone to take your ramblings seriously. You are basically claiming that because earlier, less rigorous 'theories' about the nature of reality ended up being wrong, then current theories and hypotheses about the nature of reality likewise are wrong and will be proven wrong in the future.
 
Doer

Doer

Well-Known Member
And there is the difference, Science has never claimed to be Right. The Method is very simple. Prove something. The idea may withstand current proofs if it merits Scientific consideration. That is when it can be used as a basis for more experiment.

But, later, with new techniques, it may not withstand the current proof. Back to the drawing board. But, various snake oils and cold fusion techniques are proved to not have ever left the drawing board. A valuable failure. To weave woo into this, is to say all thought is equal. It isn't. It's mostly worthless and is fear based.

In science we spend enormous time to carefully dis-prove all known contenders for the idea but ours. It's a jungle and career deadly. Only the strongest most disciplined thinkers can survive. These are not the dilettantes you suggest. They are the stiff jawed warriors of actually correct (for now). And they eat their own young. Depak Chandra has no math, that's the main point! So, how doltish to say that Dr. Throne is in that league. His interviewer perhaps. But, one has to pay more careful attention.

In short, anti-science ranting and insults is just another Religion to me. Science can never make the same mistake twice. Think about that with your postulating antagonism. Can Dr. Kynes do as well?
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
mindphuk said:
So when something is observational, we call that empirical evidence.
Starlight (and by extension laser light) seems to bend when exposed to gravity, first predicted by math, then confirmed by observation
Time dilation, first predicted by math, confirmed by observation
Fabric of spacetime bending, predicted by math, all observations appear to confirm it

Germs, in the form of bacteria, viruses and fungi, appear to cause disease in plants and animals but has never been conclusively proven and is all just germ theory. Your ridiculously innacurate death camp analogy aside, your 'just a theory' claims rings as hollow when you say it as it does when said by a creationist.

No one's saying it is the end-all-be-all final answer but to claim it's merely perception due to something else rather than reality, well that becomes a testable hypothesis for which you need to offer up something to explain the observations if you want anyone to take your ramblings seriously. You are basically claiming that because earlier, less rigorous 'theories' about the nature of reality ended up being wrong, then current theories and hypotheses about the nature of reality likewise are wrong and will be proven wrong in the future.
Click to expand...
the beauty of these theories is that they are all completely untestable. since you need to observe a thing to test it, and any data you get from your observations will be skewed by the object being observed, and the observer, and the observer's environment, then by necessity there can be no empirical data free of the contamination of the testing method

or to be more blunt, until you accurately can measure time and space without gravity distortion, and then accurately measure time and space WITH gravity distortion, without these distortions affecting your measurements themselves, its all just theory, and an unprovable one at that.

getting all butthurt and shrill over somebody disbelieving the theory you hold most dear sounds more like the plaintive wails of an offended religion rather than science.

i do not believe that because observation methods record light bending under gravity's pull, or time slowing as acceleration approaches light speed that this is necessarily fact, but rather flaws in observation. if you look at a fast food restaurant's front counter it may APPEAR to be clean, but a better, and more sophisticated observation method (microscope) will reveal massive amounts of bacteria, particles of rodent hair, smears of slimy baby shit, insect parts, and fungus from the nasty rag that they use to wipe it down twice a day.

i do not believe that the fabric of the universe bends to the whim of gravity, i believe matter is the slave of gravity, and space merely tolerates the existence of both, the way a cat tolerates it's "owner"

until proven correct by means better than mathematical models and faulty observations i will disbelieve that the universe is merely the easily distorted reflection of the matter we can observe.
 
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