High Pressure Aeroponics

Discussion in 'Aerogardeners' started by ZxcStaz, Jan 10, 2018.

  1.  
    PetFlora

    PetFlora Well-Known Member

    I started HPA over 5 years ago. Fortunately, I received a lot of help, which I have tried to pass on here. Accept it or not. Every HPA root chamber I have ever seen, aside from this 5g bucket are ALL very large chambers, ~ 3Xs greater than the eventful root mass. Why?

    The micron size of the nutrient molecule is critical to maintaining root hairs. I believe ideally it should be between 50-80 microns. Bigger than that over-wets the roots inhibiting root hair development. Further, ideal mist cycle is under 1 second repeated ~ every 3 minutes (hence the need for pressure tanks and solenoids to provide a tacky wetness to prevent the root hairs from drying out, and within a short cycle, making them hungry for their next meal
     
  2.  
    dstroy

    dstroy Well-Known Member

    IDK why I’d use anything other than the container size I am right now. I’ve gotta move plants from my veg area to my flower area. Chamber size has nothing to do with droplet size out of the nozzle, so I’m not really sure why you are talking about it? Unless you’re saying that the container is smaller and will cause the mist to coalesce? Well, it doesn’t really matter how large the root chamber is, as long as the roots sit in air. So my buckets sit in another bucket, with holes punched in it so the roots never sit in water ever. Even with a huge root chamber the roots will hit the bottom.

    Yeah, droplet size is important.

    IDK where you got the under one second thing but that’s dumb. You have to feed long enough to keep the whole rootball moist. I have accumulators and solenoids :lol:

    The reason why I’m giving you such a hard time is because you talk like you know exactly for sure how to do something, and then grow plants that look like that. Crispy.

    Also, you act like you know how to grow HPA, when you never had a successful grow with it. I mean, I’ve been doing this for about a year and I’m just now starting to get a handle on it. FFS. You’ve been a member here for a long time and shouldn’t have a problem finishing a decent looking plant.

    I grow crispy plants too, but they look fuckin better than what you posted by a long shot. Just don’t give out advice on methods when you’re not qualified to, because you never had a successful grow with HPA.
     
  3.  
    PetFlora

    PetFlora Well-Known Member

    You seem to think you know a lot about my grows, and yet you continue to take shots, but in closing....

    The ONLY reason why I had unsuccessful HPA grows was due to warm weather, which is 80% of the year where I am. The high cost of ac to keep the room and thereby root chamber temps in a desirable range was the issue, In the winter months I had cotton candy roots

    Im not going to engage with you anymore. Do a search for Atomizer. He is a HPA guru, but I doubt he will give you the time of day

    Here's a few F & D harvest pics: one is a harvested top cola that I had to snap horizontal as it was too tall

    IMG_3176.JPG IMG_4016.JPG
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  4.  
    dstroy

    dstroy Well-Known Member

    Am I supposed to be impressed by these pics or...?


    I’m not saying that I’m an “expert”, obviously I’m still a learner. I’m saying that you don’t know wtf you are talking about at all when it comes to HPA. Which is the only issue I have, because you are representing that you know some shit about HPA but you don’t.

    I’ve already received help from others, I’m sure if I asked for more they’d have no problem helping.
     
  5.  
    ZxcStaz

    ZxcStaz Active Member

    A thought just dawned on me, and speaking of accumulators, I need to figure out a way to know how much nutrient solution is left in the tank. I'm thinking of loading it with nutes and letting it run down/out without a reservoir connected all the time. I could just shake it, but I want something more definitive. The first thought that comes to mind is taring a permanent scale and noting the fill weight. ( I guess this would work for soil pots too; noob watering alarm - hehe. ) Unless anyone knows of a better method. I think I'll go with change in mass.
     
  6.  
    dstroy

    dstroy Well-Known Member

    Why do you need to know how much is in your accumulator? If you start with a full tank, and all of your nozzles remain clear, v = fv - ((ngph * nnbr) * ftcth) where v = volume, fv = full volume, ngph = nozzle gallons per hour rating, nnbr = number of nozzles, ftcth = total feed time in seconds converted to hour (fraction in decimal form)

    ((0.75 * 18) * (1/60)) = 0.225 gallons lost per hour with 18, 3/4gph nozzles feeding for 3 sec every 3 min (60 sec an hr, or 1 min total per hr)

    This will give you an approximate, won’t be very accurate unless you measure how much it can hold on your own, and flow test your nozzles yourself.

    I don’t know why you would not have it connected to a res, just one more thing to check on.
     
    ZxcStaz likes this.
  7.  
    ZxcStaz

    ZxcStaz Active Member

    Wow! That is a great point, I can do the maths on it and measure the mass, Fractional deviations from the calculated mass would be a harbinger of nozzle failure. Nice point there.

    - Oh, I wanted to disconnect the rez after filling it. This would keep the nutes in a sealed container and lower the risk of contamination. It would also allow me to change the solution quickly if I needed to change the composition. My accumulator can hold about 15 gal pressurized, so it should be ample for minimally three days.

    Cool, Thanks Dstroy!
     
  8.  
    PetFlora

    PetFlora Well-Known Member

    No, I expect you to remain the arrogant ignorant foolio you have been thus far.

    I do accept apologies

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  9.  
    PetFlora

    PetFlora Well-Known Member

  10.  
    dstroy

    dstroy Well-Known Member

    You posted pics of empty tubs? From 420mag? And from a diy website?

    What’s that supposed to prove?

    ..... it proves nothing.

    Except that whoever set up the tent with the yellow extension cord might get shocked for being careless.

    Note that I have one giant plant in a 5 gallon bucket in my 4x4 so there goes your 18 gallon container minimum. As long as you have adequate drainage or an air gap so the roots don’t sit in water, which they would in that 18 gal tote.

    You’re such a :dunce:

    Stop posting on subjects that you know little to nothing about.
     
  11.  
    PetFlora

    PetFlora Well-Known Member

    WOW LOL. You're like a puppy that keeps shitting on the carpet, even though his nose keeps getting rubbed in it.

    Your roots will NEVER be HPA in 5g buckets, but as I said from the beginning, you still have nice plants

    Done with you
     
  12.  
    dstroy

    dstroy Well-Known Member

    You shouldn’t rub a dogs nose in poo, doesn’t teach them anything disciplining them after the fact.

    You don’t have a clue, and your opinion doesn’t count because you don’t have anything to show for it. I do, though. Finally, a year after struggling with it. In part that was because of misinformation put out by self important know nothings like yourself.

    You don’t have proof of concept like I do, the way I do it works and is repeatable thanks to my fastidious record keeping.

    You don’t have any proof but keep repeating the same garbage theory.
     
    travisw likes this.
  13.  
    ZxcStaz

    ZxcStaz Active Member

    Hey guys,
    We are growing in air, not mud. Let's stop throwing it around please.

    Today I started the cloning process. I air layered each of the plants with three air layer sites, so I will have 12 total plants. I've used this method before with great success. I found a very easy method using small cling wrap strips and sections of rapid rooters.

    The strips are about 1.5" high and about 5" long. These are rolled around the rapid rooter "curlings". I take a rooter and peel it like an apple, but the peels are about 0.5 cm thick. These are saturated with cloning gel and placed over a scraped piece of shoot. I only scrape about 1.5 cm of the shoot on the top and bottom, not all the way around. It is like I make a little abrasion to allow the cloning gel to enter the vascular system.

    Because I don't twist tie the ends, I'll need to add a few drops of water every day. After about two weeks, they should be ready to enter the cloner. Roots should have sprouted by then, but if not, I have found that cuttings from the unrooted areas emerge quickly once in the cloner.

    The seedlings and clones should be ready for the new system within a month. I've attached a few pics to show the process. 20180206_174413_resized.jpg

    - ZXC

    20180206_174425_resized.jpg 20180206_174435_resized.jpg 20180206_174413_resized.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  14.  
    Atomizer

    Atomizer Well-Known Member

    You dont need a res with a 26gal accumulator, i`d stick to the original plan ;) I can tell how much is in my accumulators by looking at the pressure gauges.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
    ZxcStaz likes this.
  15.  
    ZxcStaz

    ZxcStaz Active Member

    Greetings Atomizer!

    Based on the tomes of your work that I have read, you are a repository of aero knowledge, and I thank you for contribution. To me, you are Dr. Atomizer.

    From my initial testing, I can see how the volume can be ascertained by the pressure. Also, the fixed volumes of the tank and bladder allow for easy calculation considering that P1V1=P2V2 @ constant temp. I like your method compared to using flow rates.

    I think that determination of volume, using time vs. flow, would require incorporating calculus to derive the true volume reduction, as the volume exiting the nozzles is pressure-dependent and is regressing over time; that is, nozzle exit volume is not a fixed value when the pressure is changing. In other words, without continuous re-pressurization from a pump, volume reduction cannot be accurately calculated using a linear expression.

    I think that I'll have a good estimation of remaining tank volume by checking the line pressure. I'll use the pressure method. I'll also mount the tank on a bathroom scale. At 260 Lbs, max filled weight, the cheap scale will provide volume data at a glance, too.

    This is awesome! Thank you again, Dr.

    - ZXC
     
    PetFlora likes this.
  16.  
    ZxcStaz

    ZxcStaz Active Member

    Nutrient lockout and precipitation are overcome by creating balanced solutions at the correct pH. Concentrated solutions are kept separate until diluted, in the proper order, to make a working nutrient solution. Using HPA systems it is possible to keep incompatible solutions apart. Has anyone considered running two side-by-side systems to spray different solutions at different times?

    Imagine two accumulators and nozzle arrays that alternate dispensations. One system might contain nitrates, Ca, and some micros. The other system contains the phosphate, sulfates, and other micros. This might overcome competitions and precipitation. It might also be able to deliver greater amounts of nutrients crafted to specific needs.

    This is an idea that crossed my mind, but I haven’t found any specific data around this topic. Does anyone have any experience in this area?
     
  17.  
    Atomizer

    Atomizer Well-Known Member

    You should always check the volume of a new accumulator so you know what it is. The label may say 26 gal but thats nominal, in reality it`ll be less :) Dont forget to set the air precharge beforehand or you`ll be measuring volume that will never be used. When measuring nozzle flowrate, be sure to account for the accumulator pressure variation.. unless you have a pressure reducer fitted that provides constant output pressure regardless of the tank pressure. Nozzle flowrate alters with pressure so it`ll be higher at 100psi (freshly charged tank) vs 80psi (tank running on fumes). I run all mine with a 78psi air precharge, charge to 145psi and forget about them until they get close to 80psi.
     
  18.  
    ZxcStaz

    ZxcStaz Active Member

    Yes! My tank factory precharge is at 38psi, I'll increase to 78psi to make the run-out pressure 80 psi. I tested it only once, and frankly I was a little wary about pressurizing past 120psi. It is certified to 150psi, but ... - On the other hand I have seen systems that are using R.O. bladder tanks as accumulators. Now, I'm not sure what their max working pressure is, but I'd be worried using one of those. When I tested it the fill volume was approximately 15 gal, although the tank capacity states 26 gal. The air bladder takes up some of that space, it will probably be more when I add 40 more psi to it. Do you still use a 26 gal accumulator, and if so, how much liquid volume will it hold at your precharge pressure?
    I did not consider a pressure reducing fitting. That is intriguing, and I'm going to research them now. Thanks again!
     
  19.  
    Atomizer

    Atomizer Well-Known Member

    RO tanks are usually rated for100psi but they wont last as long if you push them to the limit. In the long run, its better to buy a good quality tank with stainless fittings and a replacable bladder. I have a few lowara 100L (10 bar) accumulators. The nominal volume is 26.42 us gal but the actual volume is closer to 24.5, With 78psi-145psi they hold a smidge under 40L (10.5 us gal). Your 26gal running 38psi-120psi, in theory, should give you 15.8 gal. With 78psi-120psi, it`ll be around 8.1 gal.
     
  20.  
    ZxcStaz

    ZxcStaz Active Member

    Atomizer,

    I found a pressure regulator valve, it was only $25. I'll bring the bladder pressure to 78 psi, and regulate the flow pressure to 80? 100? (Whatever you think is optimal.) This should give a more even nozzle flow rate and increase the duration of the tank charge, plus about 2 more gal of holding space, to bring it close to yours.
    Thanks for the great information. This will definitely even out the system and make it better on a whole!
     

Share This Page