High Pressure Aeroponics (HPA)

PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
I am on my fourth HPA grow- my first with all elements engaged from the start. It is not without a learning curve, but I am mostly there.

Although HPA is 'hydr/aero', it has little in common with conventional hydro/aero.

My journey to HPA: I started with Drip, then bubble, then low pressure mist (with entirely too long feed cycles) and finally to HPA.

In HPA you do not use any medium beyond the seed starter cube.

What sets HPA apart is optimal nutrient uptake. Only HPA delivers the nutes to the roots as a fine mist- bite size droplets (20-50 micron) that are readily absorbed. As roots can only consume so much per feeding, a deep cycle timer (<2sec) is required to dampen the roots, not soak them as all other DWC systems do. Within ~ 2 minutes they are dry enough to feed again- 24/7. When parameters are kept within range, root growth is exposive which is followed by plant/bud growth.

You do not recirculate nutes after 3rd week of flower.

Relative Humidity inside the root chamber is as important as rez temp.

Put the link up and I will start a journal
 
TruenoAE86coupe

TruenoAE86coupe

Moderator
PetFlora said:
I am on my fourth HPA grow- my first with all elements engaged from the start. It is not without a learning curve, but I am mostly there.

Although HPA is 'hydr/aero', it has little in common with conventional hydro/aero.

My journey to HPA: I started with Drip, then bubble, then low pressure mist (with entirely too long feed cycles) and finally to HPA.

In HPA you do not use any medium beyond the seed starter cube.

What sets HPA apart is optimal nutrient uptake. Only HPA delivers the nutes to the roots as a fine mist- bite size droplets (20-50 micron) that are readily absorbed. As roots can only consume so much per feeding, a deep cycle timer (<2sec) is required to dampen the roots, not soak them as all other DWC systems do. Within ~ 2 minutes they are dry enough to feed again- 24/7. When parameters are kept within range, root growth is exposive which is followed by plant/bud growth.

You do not recirculate nutes after 3rd week of flower.

Relative Humidity inside the root chamber is as important as rez temp.

Put the link up and I will start a journal
Click to expand...
What do you mean you do not recirculate nutes after the 3rd week of flower? Kind of lost me there.
I would love to see how to build this, sounds like a brilliant idea. Any info you can provide i will gladly read and attempt to understand.
Do you run your nutes very heavy? any issues with clogging?
 
rosecitypapa

rosecitypapa

Active Member
Cool, what does your rig consist of, pump, sprayers, etc?

Btw, you create you own link by creating and posting to your own grow journal.
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
During flower cycle the chemistry of the female plants changes radically to support bud development, much like a pregnant woman. The nute runoff becomes quite toxic in both pH and ppms. Recirculating these nutes will contaminate the rez, and eventually sicken the plants (roughly 3 weeks into flower first signs appear). The signs appear as nute deficiencies, causing people to add more nutes, which only adds fuel to the fire.

Due to small feeding portions < 2 seconds ~ every 2 minutes 24/7, nute strength is much lower. I usually run 2-300 in early veg and raise weekly to 6-800 in late veg (AFs are a different dynamic). Flower from 600-1300 depending on nutes as well environmntal factors. Check for tip burn and adjust accordingly. This grow I am using all Dutch Master Gold- Silica, Zone, Add.27, Grow and Flower A/B.

MediMary welcome, but there really isn't much to add until/unless RIU puts up a separate HPA Forum link. Perhaps if everyone writes to RIU we can move this forward.
 
TruenoAE86coupe

TruenoAE86coupe

Moderator
OK i also use dutch master, and i realize how expensive of a nute line it really is, so you dump all the water that is sprayed onto the roots after week 3 of flower? I would imagine you use a fair amount of water/nutes in a day since you run the pumps for a total of 24 minutes a day and i would imagine you have pretty large pumps. Am i correct here?
Why do you need a forum for this? There is no rule saying you can not start a thread in general growing, or hydroponic growing that is a new method on here, we all need to learn somehow. We would read regardless of if you there was a sub-forum or not.
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
LINK: HPA having its' own link makes it easy for those who are not interested in any of the other methods.

Nute Expense is relative to number of plants/mist heads per grow. I mix 5G at a time, which now lasts 4-5 days. I am using 2 single heads growing two AFs, but have 5 seedlings backing it up- won't know how many females for 2-3 weeks. DM offers 5 Liter jugs for bigger growers. Keep in mind you can recycle up until about the 3rd week of flower. So you are only looking at ~ 5 weeks of D2W (Drain to Waste). I feed the leftovers to my outdoor plants, which love it.

Equipment: Small RV pump (available in AC or DC). Check out Reptile Basics. During Pod Racers journal (some 8-10 years ago, they were blowing pumps up left and right). I have been using a Aquatec 8800 pump ($90) for two years http://aquatec.com/boost.htm , plus single and double mist heads (depends on plant/root size), fittings: get a quick release pet cock drain plug for the rez, and a Y splitter (one each per tote) and tubing. All under $200. I use a Sentinel MDT-1 timer (~$130), inline filter (~$20), rez was a donated kitty itter container,(extra for premixing nutes) tote price depends on size.

Totes: Rubber maid type. I recommend one max height 2ft plant per 18G tote. Once you see how big the root mass gets in flower you will understand. Keep in mind you need plenty of air space around each root so the mist can rise and fall 360 degrees. I rotate my PVC coupler 180 degrees several times a day for assure misting coverage. If 2 plants put one single mist head on each side at near opposite ends of the long sides. Now, if you plan to SOG short plants, you might get 4-6 in a 30G tote- < $10.

hth
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
RCP: I am referring to when someone goes to the Forum page that there is a specific HPA link under Hydroponics.

I just posted the info you asked about. You will see it soon, also make sure to click on the link as it has some pictures.

hth
 
A

Atomizer

Well-Known Member
Imho, HPA doesn`t warrant having its own forum as it falls under the general catagory of aeroponics.
Standalone pumps deliver low-high-low pressure, so to be completely accurate it should be LHLA. On a sliding scale, LHLA may be more effective than a rotary atomizer based aero (RAA?) as that has a little less control over the mist delivery.
Accumulator based aero provides consistantly high pressure (HPA) with optimium control.
Air-assisted nozzles (AAA?) use low pressure yet deliver the correct droplet size range with optimum control.
Only the last two can be classified as truely aeroponic because they meet all the criteria and they don`t deserve their own forum either. Its all aeroponic to one degree or another :)
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Atomizer said:
Imho, HPA doesn`t warrant having its own forum as it falls under the general catagory of aeroponics.
Standalone pumps deliver low-high-low pressure, so to be completely accurate it should be LHLA. On a sliding scale, LHLA may be more effective than a rotary atomizer based aero (RAA?) as that has a little less control over the mist delivery.
Accumulator based aero provides consistantly high pressure (HPA) with optimium control.
Air-assisted nozzles (AAA?) use low pressure yet deliver the correct droplet size range with optimum control.
Only the last two can be classified as truely aeroponic because they meet all the criteria and they don`t deserve their own forum either. Its all aeroponic to one degree or another :)
Click to expand...
THIS MIGHT CHANGE YOUR MIND

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/215012-high-pressure-aka-true-aeroponics-8.html#post5262053

and FYI my Aquatec 8800 diaphram pump is high pressure- not low high low as you said.
 
A

Atomizer

Well-Known Member
I still don`t see anything to merit a seperate forum. The pics show a typical hydro root structure, the absence of prolific root hairs is due to overmisting / lack of control. (see above)
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Taken this morning. Plants are from AF seeds purchased privately- my first AFs. Was unable to get light requirements from seller, so I began at 18/6 and lowered after 2 weeks to 12/12. Then there was a cold snap and I got really sick so the plants suffered on two fronts. Somehow, these 2 survived. They were so close to death that I didn't take any pics. Wish I had now. What you see here is a niracle (near miracle).

Though I had searched like crazy for lighting info, it was only 2 weeks ago that I came across Joint Drs interview in the current issue of Skunk Mag, where he says 20/4 throughout. I have been doing that until today; I flipped to 12/12 as they still weren't developing pistil clusters. Now part of the reason could be very warm weather over the last 7 days caused the RH in my root chamber to exceed 80%- 24/7. Thats' not good for root hair development, and probably not for pompoms either, as it's too warm and too moist.

Yesterday I made a DIY chiller using PVC and a low pressure pump which resides inside a kitty litter rez, thath is outside the root chamber. Water is chilled using a 1/2G jug of ice. Water is recirculated through the pvc and back into the rez. You can see part of the pvc, which goes around the inside perimeter in the root photo- Sorry about the quality, but when I tilt the top to take root photos the plants fall over as there is no locking collar on the bottom of the PVC couplers. Keeping the camera steady and focused with one hand is not that easy.

Within minutes of plugging in the chiller RH was in the low 60s, so maybe I didn't need to drop to 12/12, just needed to get the RH to be root hair & pompom friendly. FYI, it does not need to be recirculating 24/7. Nights are cool enough. During the day it could be put on a timer. On/off times dictated by watching the RH climb.

Keep in mind both plants were on death's door a month ago. That they survived is a tribute to HPA. All things considered, they are pretty healthy, however, the roots are no where near typical of HPA plants that were healthy throughout. Note the root in the front belongs to the larger plant. It has taken longer to regenerate new roots.

hth


IMG_0751 (683x1024) (427x640).jpgIMG_0753 (683x1024).jpg
 
A

Atomizer

Well-Known Member
Same hydro root structure as the last pics, no root hairs. I also have an 8800 and it ramps from 0psi upwards when powered up. My accumulator doesnt ramp, it delivers 90psi as soon as the solenoid opens.
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Look, I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you, and I suspect viewers are bored with the tit-for-tat already.

Yes, in the ABSOLUTE since, the 8800 'RAMPS' up, but please, we are talking < 2 seconds, and the 8800 might take all of .2 - .25 second to achieve >50psi.

Clearly, you are an Accumulator fan. It's not that I am not, by any means, but as far out there as I am to most growers using any other hydro technique, you are to me. When my root pod RH is within tolerances, as well as all the other parameters I get tons of root hairs without the added expense and floor space that most personal use growers do not have. I would love to see this in action. Feel free to post a few pics (or a short video) here- one of your plants, one of your roots, and one of your Acc setup. Now can we move on? Thank You!
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
About 2 years ago I found Pod Racer's extensive blog. I was intrigued, but I had to read it 3 times, partly because these guys were pioneering it for mj, and were on a whirlwind learning curve, plus Pods esoteric rants.

As to be expected when pioneering, some of the assumptions were wrong, like the N dumping, which was probably nothing more than recirculating toxic runoff due to hormone changes during bud development.

Pod Racer called it "TAG", I call it High Pressure Aeroponics (HPA) and there is at least one significant variation. I am a personal use grower,so the system you see pictured here is of 2 totes (eaach tote can hold 2-3 AF plants. The pump can probably handle 4 totes. For largeer grows, consider installing an Accumulator.

Although you could grow trees with HPA (55 G drums) , it's particulary suited to SOG. Why? Root systems are as big as the plant. If you have a 5-6 ft plant you need a two foot cushion all around to mist the entire root mass. Also you need sufficient room below to keep the drain clear.

Relative Humidity RH inside the root chamber is improtant. Too much and you will soon get gnats, mold, algae, fungus...

If RIU puts up a HPA forum, I will start a journal.



1. The system in place. Note inline filter (200 mesh screen) between rez and pump


2. PVC couplers come in a variety of sizes. The one on the far left has shortest thread and largest opening. Makes it easier for nutes to get up in there. I almost lost 5 young plants using the others.



3.PVC couplers with neoprene puck. Note the ledge inside will prevent the plant from falling through once it gets heavy- and it will!



Roots tend to develop before you see much top growth

This was taken a week ago (9'). This plant was on death's door. I credit HPA with bringing it back. It is now over 12".



You won't find these roots in any other aero/hydro system, and they are not the best. When the root chamber is totlly dialed in, all those hair like roots will fill with fuzz that are called root hairs. The fuzz significantly increases the surface area, allowing for more nutes to be absorbed at each feeding.

 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Morning Update: My biggest plant was droopy this morning. I mixed fresh LL/S but it did not respond. Maybe two weeks ago I added an inline filter with 200 mesh screen, but the mist head was somewhat clogged. Easy to clean. Within 10 minutes the plant perked right up. hth
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
TruenoAE86coupe said:
What do you mean you do not recirculate nutes after the 3rd week of flower? Kind of lost me there.
I would love to see how to build this, sounds like a brilliant idea. Any info you can provide i will gladly read and attempt to understand.
Do you run your nutes very heavy? any issues with clogging?
Click to expand...

Brain fart. I meant recycle.lol
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
potroast said:
Thanks for the suggestion, we'll take it into consideration. In the meantime, this is the Requests forum. If you want to talk about Aeroponics, there is the Hydroponics / Aeroponics forum. If you want to start a Journal of your efforts, there is the Grow Journals forum.

:mrgreen:
Click to expand...
Then why was the Suggestion Box visible and replyable to anyone other than you and me? Seems you have an issue to resolve. As you can see other jumped right in on both sides. Atomizer, the lone con, as he only believes using an Accumulator qualifies as high pressure.

IMHO, Since 99% of HPA enthusiasts do not look under hydro (but would be forced to look under Aero (but why have to weed through a ton of info that does not pertain to you), and 99% of hydro/Aero do not know what HPA is, it should have its' own sub-forum link. hth
 
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