Hey gun nuts, is this your idea of a perfect society?

Dr Kynes said:

however the M1 Garand uses a "clip" within the magazine, and the "clip" gets ejected automatically after all rounds are spent. since the Garand was the first US Issued rifle to have what might be called a "detachable magazine" (though it really is justy a steel clip that holds the rounds within the otherwise fixed magazine well) many have come to associate the words clip and magazine as synonymous in the context of firearms.

many people also assume that all magazines are detachable, and many would be horrified at the prospect of an 3000 round magazine (sitting in my closet right now) but greatly comforted by the idea of a rifle with NO magazine at all, as they would assume that its a one shot breech loader.

which of course leads me to consider the diagrams my late uncle drew up for his proposed Belt Fed Bottom Ejecting Automatic Shotgun... his proposal included alternating 00 shot and sabot slugs for maximum devastation on hard targets as well as personnel. it was proposed based on his oinion of the shortcomings of the M60 in jungle warfare as a vehicle mounted weapon or a crew served machinegun. i thought it was brilliant.

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Way Kewl.
About 14 months ago, I purchased a Saiga semi auto shotgun with 2 - 10 round mags( for you kp ) and 2 - 20rd drum mags and I can personally say, that there is no assault rifle that can match a 12 guage w/ buckshot at ranges up to 50 yards+ with 000 buck, I think the only thing that can match that much lead in the air that fast is a minigun...lol

Peace

Asmallvoice

ASMALLVOICE said:

Way Kewl.
About 14 months ago, I purchased a Saiga semi auto shotgun with 2 - 10 round mags( for you kp ) and 2 - 20rd drum mags and I can personally say, that there is no assault rifle that can match a 12 guage w/ buckshot at ranges up to 50 yards+ with 000 buck, I think the only thing that can match that much lead in the air that fast is a minigun...lol

Peace

Asmallvoice

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when you throw in sabot slugs (in copper or bronze for velocity and penetration, or hollowpoint lead for massive stopping power) the shotgun beats most any weapon hands down even at several hundred meters for sheer butt kicking power

his design was for a mounted heavy machine gun with a smooth bore, allowing for massive firepower at closer ranges with shot, and rifled slugs for accuracy and power over distance, combined with a high fire rate.

with only a few such weapons a small unit could hold a firebase against huge the numbers of chinese/NVA human wave assaults, and when needed paste an entire region of jungle to scrub out irritating concealed ambushers. he was a visionary.

kpmarine said:

The way you stated it assumed that was his goal. He advocated "proper storage" along the same lines I did; which can be summed up in one sentence: Render your guns reasonably inaccessible when you aren't in control of them. If you look at his open statements that he has fully assembled guns in his own home, then you can pretty reasonably assume he isn't for the "field strip your shotgun" method.
.

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You said it my man, as long as you're not in possession of your firearm, or it's not right beside you on your night table or in your drawer, it should be locked up. Firearms are meant to protect you from danger, not increase the likely hood that you or your family is injured or killed.

Kynes knows that's what I mean, because I've said it multiple times. He's just looking for a strawman to beat down.

Kynes also knows I haven't suggested any specific measures other than 'proper storage' when not in use. But so far, all suggestions regardless of how much they make sense, have been cast aside without even a hint of consideration because of what I can only refer to as 'gun bigotry'. A stance so ingrained that any attempt at reasonable discourse is immediately seen as an attack of some sort.

When you're not home or around your firearms, other people, whether friend or foe, should not be able to access your firearms within reasonable constraints.

Beefbisquit said:

You said it my man, as long as you're not in possession of your firearm, or it's not right beside you on your night table or in your drawer, it should be locked up. Firearms are meant to protect you from danger, not increase the likely hood that you or your family is injured or killed.

Kynes knows that's what I mean, because I've said it multiple times. He's just looking for a strawman to beat down.

Kynes also knows I haven't suggested any specific measures other than 'proper storage' when not in use. But so far, all suggestions regardless of how much they make sense, have been cast aside without even a hint of consideration because of what I can only refer to as 'gun bigotry'. A stance so ingrained that any attempt at reasonable discourse is immediately seen as an attack of some sort.

When you're not home or around your firearms, other people, whether friend or foe, should not be able to access your firearms within reasonable constraints.

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Do you not consider a locked front door to your home a reasonable constraint?

Peace

Asmallvoice

Dr Kynes said:

when you throw in sabot slugs (in copper or bronze for velocity and penetration, or hollowpoint lead for massive stopping power) the shotgun beats most any weapon hands down even at several hundred meters for sheer butt kicking power

his design was for a mounted heavy machine gun with a smooth bore, allowing for massive firepower at closer ranges with shot, and rifled slugs for accuracy and power over distance, combined with a high fire rate.

with only a few such weapons a small unit could hold a firebase against huge the numbers of chinese/NVA human wave assaults, and when needed paste an entire region of jungle to scrub out irritating concealed ambushers. he was a visionary.

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If it shot fast enough it might be usable to a few hundred meters. but not accurately. Rifled slugs used with a smooth bore are typically good for about 100 yards.

Sabots lose stability quickly unless you're using a rifled barrel, and even then the gains aren't that remarkable. Still only good for 150 yards or so with decent stopping power. If you want to shoot a rainbow out to 200-300 yards be my guest. lol

Sabots work best with rifled barrel, 00 buckshot with smooth bore - also buckshot loses velocity even faster than slugs and sabots. You'd have slugs dropping off 50 yards further than the buckshot.

Might work ok @ 50 yards.... seems kind of like a bad idea to me.

ASMALLVOICE said:

Do you not consider a locked front door to your home a reasonable constraint?

Peace

Asmallvoice

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No. Not for kids in your home, or against thieves that can break a door window to gain access to your home. A safe that is bolted to the ground is much harder to get in to.

Beefbisquit said:

If it shot fast enough it might be usable to a few hundred meters. but not accurately. Rifled slugs used with a smooth bore are typically good for about 100 yards.

Sabots lose stability quickly unless you're using a rifled barrel, and even then the gains aren't that remarkable. Still only good for 150 yards or so with decent stopping power.

Sabots work best with rifled barrel, 00 buckshot with smooth bore - also buckshot loses velocity even faster than slugs and sabots. You'd have slugs dropping off 50 yards further than the buckshot.

Might work ok @ 50 yards.... seems kind of like a bad idea to me.

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In larger guns, like the main tubes on tanks, saboted darts are tremendously accurate from a smooth bore. cn

Beefbisquit said:

If it shot fast enough it might be usable to a few hundred meters. but not accurately. Rifled slugs used with a smooth bore are typically good for about 100 yards.

Sabots lose stability quickly unless you're using a rifled barrel, and even then the gains aren't that remarkable. Still only good for 150 yards or so with decent stopping power. If you want to shoot a rainbow out to 200-300 yards be my guest. lol

Sabots work best with rifled barrel, 00 buckshot with smooth bore - also buckshot loses velocity even faster than slugs and sabots. You'd have slugs dropping off 50 yards further than the buckshot.

Might work ok @ 50 yards.... seems kind of like a bad idea to me.

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rifled slugs bring their own twist to the party, thats why the sabots are used for long range deer hunting (gramps used them out to 200 yards till his eyes went) and while thats sjort range when discussing sniper rifles im talking about suppressive fire and area denial from a machinegun emplacement/vehicle.

sabots are shed after exiting the bore, leaving the slug with it's spiral intact. the same function one gets with a rifled barrel, but through a disposable plastic boot.

30 calber ballistic drop machinegun fire has been used for generations to prevent the enemy from crossing a particular area, increasing the size of the slug by .03, and making it spherical will not make it ineffective, particularly when discussing each cartridge being loaded with 8-10 of the fuckers, fired high and allowing them to fall on the field in the "Lead Rain" to cover an area.

in standard aimed fire, shot does NOT fall out of the sky at 50 yards. heavier shot maintains it;s energy quite well, and as 00 buck shot is in fact a .33 caliber ball, they keep their juice over quite a lot more range than you propose.

you also forgot this was intended by the designer for Jungle warfare, as in 25-150 yard close range combat, not 3000 yard sniping contests in the ruins of stalingrad or baghdad. its a heavy machine gun, not a long range scalpel.

my uncle is still a visionary.

Beefbisquit said:

No. Not for kids in your home, or against thieves that can break a door window to gain access to your home. A safe that is bolted to the ground is much harder to get in to.

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I agree with that only if you have not taught your children proper gun handling and safety. I was on my own in the woods at the age of 9 with a double barrel 410 and for my 10th b-day, I received a nickle plated pump 22. I still have those weapons and cannot wait to pass them to my grandchildren, as I know they are already shooting and learning gun safety at the age of 5 and 7. When they hit 8, the guns are thiers.


Both of my children were trained in the same manner. If you do not teach them about guns and the safe handling thereof, then that is the parents fault if something happens. To have a child say 11-12 years old and up in the house alone, I would want them to have access to defense should the need arise (only if properly trained) and not have to fumble araound with a safe under pressure. I have purchased 2 shotguns and 2 9mm pistols for both of my children the moment they moved out on thier own. It is a way of life, not a hobby.

It is a shame not to introduce a young child to the sport of shooting and/or hunting, it might just save thier life or yours one day.

Peace

Asmallvoice

cannabineer said:

In larger guns, like the main tubes on tanks, saboted darts are tremendously accurate from a smooth bore. cn

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sabot shotgun slugs come in many varieties, most being designed for use in a rifled bore (the no-shot shotgun) while "rifled slugs" get their stabilization from their shape and balance not from the twisty rifling looking protuberances cast into them.

some "rifled sabot" slugs get their twist from the sabot, ditch the boot on exit from the bore, and spin downrange like a 50 caliber 2 1/2 ounce lead fastball moving at just under 2000 fps with a dead zero balistic arc at ~150 yards from a 0 elevation shot...

thats how you take a deer.


military sabot rounds (like for tanks) almost invariably fire from a rifled bore, and the sabot is to protect the penetrator dart from the rifling (and vice versa) and provide full bore snugness on a spear dart designed to impale hard targets...

like the lead bore riding bands for and aft of an artillery shell, the sabot makes the round fit the rifled bore, but in civilian arms, the sabot can have many uses, from simulating rifling in a bore without a twist, to loading super hard armor piercing/big critter bashing bronze or steel bullets without destroying your barrel with the hard ass bullets. sabots can also be used to load different caliber bullets in the same weapon but we wont talk about that...

ASMALLVOICE said:

Way Kewl.
About 14 months ago, I purchased a Saiga semi auto shotgun with 2 - 10 round mags( for you kp ) and 2 - 20rd drum mags and I can personally say, that there is no assault rifle that can match a 12 guage w/ buckshot at ranges up to 50 yards+ with 000 buck, I think the only thing that can match that much lead in the air that fast is a minigun...lol

Peace

Asmallvoice

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I forgot the exact name, Metalstorm keeps coming up, but there is an electronic fired machine gun that can shoot 1000000 rounds/min (yes, 1million).

The AA12 is a beast of a weapon as well, and I agree that in close/medium range will destroy any assault rifle.

e;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFjGbOyd2ek
Check it out

The pistol is badass. It can shoot every round, in such a short amount of time, that the gun hasn't even recoiled yet, leading to perfect groupings.

Dr Kynes said:

however the M1 Garand uses a "clip" within the magazine, and the "clip" gets ejected automatically after all rounds are spent. since the Garand was the first US Issued rifle to have what might be called a "detachable magazine" (though it really is justy a steel clip that holds the rounds within the otherwise fixed magazine well) many have come to associate the words clip and magazine as synonymous in the context of firearms.

many people also assume that all magazines are detachable, and many would be horrified at the prospect of an 3000 round magazine (sitting in my closet right now) but greatly comforted by the idea of a rifle with NO magazine at all, as they would assume that its a one shot breech loader.

which of course leads me to consider the diagrams my late uncle drew up for his proposed Belt Fed Bottom Ejecting Automatic Shotgun... his proposal included alternating 00 shot and sabot slugs for maximum devastation on hard targets as well as personnel. it was proposed based on his oinion of the shortcomings of the M60 in jungle warfare as a vehicle mounted weapon or a crew served machinegun. i thought it was brilliant.

Click to expand...

That would be interesting. For a LMG replacement like that some flechettes would probably be nice, too. There are a shortage of belt-fed shotguns in the world.

kpmarine said:

That would be interesting. For a LMG replacement like that some flechettes would probably be nice, too. There are a shortage of belt-fed shotguns in the world.

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flechettes are still banned by the geneva convention. he focused on heavy shot and slugs.

he envisioned it as a replacement for the medium MGV's like the m60, which he felt were overpowered but undergunned for close/medium range suppressive fire and jungle warfare.

he was a scout/sniper by trade, but saw firsthand the failings of the M60 in laying down suppressing fire, and pasting a spot for area denial.

his specs called for 800-1000 rounds per minute from a 12 guage smoothbore machinegun. i doubt anyone could control that thing without a mount of some sort

thats why it was designed to eject from the bottom, to dump the spent shells at high volume to the ground or down a chute instead of hurling them into the passenger compartment or onto your fire team.

Here is the results of me killing some paper up at the lake. 50yds, prone, 71 degrees and and wind left to right at about 8-12mph with 32 grain pellets and yes, I was stoned to the bone.

This is with my favorite rifle of all, my air rifle. If I did have to give up my guns, these would be the ones that would be the hardest to get rid of. Fun, cheap and very effective for most annoying small critters.
I learned to shoot a benjamin air rifle by the time I was 6, had to lay it on the ground to pump it and only had the strength then, to pump about 4 times( damn, sounds a bit like my sex life )


Love the sailboat fuel powered guns

Peace

Asmallvoice

cannabineer said:

In larger guns, like the main tubes on tanks, saboted darts are tremendously accurate from a smooth bore. cn

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They are DU darts with stabilizing fins leaving what is essentially an artillery piece. It's a giant flechette, so it's much more stable in flight.

ASMALLVOICE said:

Here is the results of me killing some paper up at the lake. 50yds, prone, 71 degrees and and wind left to right at about 8-12mph with 32 grain pellets and yes, I was stoned to the bone.

This is with my favorite rifle of all, my air rifle. If I did have to give up my guns, these would be the ones that would be the hardest to get rid of. Fun, cheap and very effective for most annoying small critters.
I learned to shoot a benjamin air rifle by the time I was 6, had to lay it on the ground to pump it and only had the strength then, to pump about 4 times( damn, sounds a bit like my sex life )
View attachment 2458176View attachment 2458177

Love the sailboat fuel powered guns

Peace

Asmallvoice

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i still take a rabbit now and again with my old 5mm silverstreak competition air rifle. i used to piss off the local deer when they came grazing on my corn patch with that thing, loaded with, if you can believe it, alfalfa rabbit feed pellets. they sting like a bitch but simply cannot harm anything bigger than a spider.

vapor trails from a .308 is my cuurent passion. here a kool outlook on things[video=youtube;W6-FtsnIFsc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6-FtsnIFsc&feature=share&list=FLvB3solmhqtgDeLpD-yTtfg[/video]

He does have some valid points![video=youtube_share;fzKXrqdpbd4]http://youtu.be/fzKXrqdpbd4[/video]

kpmarine said:

They are DU darts with stabilizing fins leaving what is essentially an artillery piece. It's a giant flechette, so it's much more stable in flight.

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They've also redesigned the HEAT round to do well from the smoothbore tubes. Spinning a shaped charge is not ideal.

The British (and clients) were the main holdouts for going smooth on tank barrels, as they liked and had plenty of HESH (high explosive squash head, a round that transfers quite a slap to thick armor), but even the Challenger II had an upgrade programme* replacing the rifled tube with a smoothbore. So to Dr I day that rather than being the exception on modern tanks, the smoothbore main gun tube is now the rule. cn

*had it been an Abrams, "program"

cannabineer said:

They've also redesigned the HEAT round to do well from the smoothbore tubes. Spinning a shaped charge is not ideal.

The British (and clients) were the main holdouts for going smooth on tank barrels, as they liked and had plenty of HESH (high explosive squash head, a round that transfers quite a slap to thick armor), but even the Challenger II had an upgrade programme* replacing the rifled tube with a smoothbore. So to Dr I day that rather than being the exception on modern tanks, the smoothbore main gun tube is now the rule. cn

*had it been an Abrams, "program"

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Oh, yes. The smoothbore tube has been the rule for some time now.