Hermie or not!!, what's your thoughts folks.

macsnax said:

Different plants, different stress triggers. Just like people, one thing may bother you, but not the next person.

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Agreed and phenotype is a logical explanation for the specific reasons you describe.

macsnax said:

Rhodelizatin isn't a great way to mass produce seeds either, cs and sts produce more pollen.

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That makes much sense. Cheers.

macsnax said:

Rhodelization can be found in nature too. If a plant finishes out the season without receiving pollen it will likely pollinate itself in a last ditch effort to continue life.

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See this is where I have many doubts myself about the theory of rhodelization, from an evolutionary sense.
Why wouldn't it just be hermaphrodites, not the dioecious plants providing this survival mechanism?

Botanists would describe many hermaphrodite inflorescence as a "perfect" or "complete" flower.
Separate female and male inflorescence on a single plant, is categorized differently. It's incomplete, not perfect form.

Also if the calyx is essentially the vessel for seed, why would it be beneficial to grow male inflorescence first, as an intersex plant?

It makes sense for all the males to flower first and spread their pollen. Because they're trying to outcompete the other males, so they can pass on their own genes. And set all the females, or hermaphrodites to seed.

macsnax said:

But I've also seen a lot of growers that think they run a tight ship, but don't know half as much as what they think they do. It goes both ways.

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Totally agree mate. And I myself only knows about as much as the next fella.
We're all limited by our own experience and gathered information.

My own problem is suggesting a self pollinated plant with the presence of bananas, or late stage herm is a guarantee of feminised seed.
Or that environment caused the hermi, not it's own genetics.
This is far from my own experience.

Also, there's nothing in any scientific information, or articles that suggest it is true? Or experiment the theory?
At least from what I've tried to search out myself.

I suppose what I'm getting at, is if a single plant or two, out of a dozen or more plants turned hermi, I would never put it down to environment being the cause. Whichever hermi it may be.
Especially when able to regulate the growing environment as well.
I would never, ever use them to make seed either. Just isn't worth the risk or trouble in my own opinion.
It's far from a desirable trait, if other plants in the same grow make it to harvest without growing any.
And why wouldn't it have the potential to pass the same trait on?

In my honest opinion, the theory borders on suggesting dioecious cannabis plants don't exist.
I believe it to be a false assumption that "every" xx female plant has the potential to self pollinate, via male inflorescence,
without chemical manipulation.
And I believe that's what the general botanical science suggests as well?

Really, I do respect your own opinion macsnax.
I have nothing really against plants that throw a few bananas or balls either. I've kept them and smoked them too. They can make for great smoko.
Just think that in OPs case it's not worth the hassle trying to determine whether it's environmentally triggered. And it's too early in flower to start picking nuts and bananas off.

Peace. All the best.

P.S. I honestly think it's a debate suited to a different thread.
I do apologize for my original post where I mentioned it as well. I can see how what I said may seem antagonizing.
Really didn't intend for it to seem that way. Apologies if it did.

Aussieaceae said:

Ok but that doesn't explain why some won't hermi at all.

Maybe Rhodelization is a thing. But unstable feminized seeds are too. There's gotta be a really good reason for stress testing and using sts or cs as the preferred method?
If not for stability and consistency in the genes, then what for?

Maybe a way of looking at it, would be does Rhodelization require a specific environment? And do some plants "rhodelize" more easily than others?
I would assume yes to both.

Imvho many growers / breeders blame the grower for hermaphrodite plants. That's just flat out the wrong first assumption to make.
Awfully convenient excuse for a supplier to blame the grower, for a few nanners too, if a customer's complaining.

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Very convenient indeed i got these seeds as freebies from 'sensible seeds' after buying a shit load of femmed seeds this time last year which many again were dodgy even though they were from respected breeders, well 'dutch passion', i was a test grower years ago doing 7 x strains 10 x of each strain, so in total 70 x femmed seeds, from 70 only 18 were true females when grown out, having said that i have had superb genetics from them too, so back to sensible seeds, they offered me some seeds from their 'premium seeds' collection, og kush, power plant primo, high jack, megamouth and honey trap, tbh they do not say who the breeder is, so imho they are just crappy seeds they use to mug off potential annoyed buyers, i contacted them stating about this latest crappy batch, again they offered me free seeds when i next order from them, pmsl, i informed them, i would not accept their seeds as a gift, once bitten twice shy springs to mind.
Megamouth

The strain I'm growing now for the second time (cloned) has like clock work, week 5 started to show nanners. Last time I would have plucked a couple dozen off and somewhat surprisingly I only ended up with 1 seed. I flowered for 13 week so you would have thought that they'd be plenty of seeds from the nanners that I probably missed. Is there such a thing as sterile polen?

pete_pumpkin said:

The strain I'm growing now for the second time (cloned) has like clock work, week 5 started to show nanners. Last time I would have plucked a couple dozen off and somewhat surprisingly I only ended up with 1 seed. I flowered for 13 week so you would have thought that they'd be plenty of seeds from the nanners that I probably missed. Is there such a thing as sterile polen?

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yes there most certainly is sterile pollen...i think alot of times the nanners that show up in the buds are sterile

JustBlazin said:

yes there most certainly is sterile pollen...i think alot of times the nanners that show up in the buds are sterile

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Wow yeah I just did a quick google. Sterile pollen is a thing.

pete_pumpkin said:

Wow yeah I just did a quick google. Sterile pollen is a thing.

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ya wish i knew that when i first started growing, i had the rankest chemdog sour diesel from resevior seeds was the stankiest tastiest thing ive grown but unfortunately it would throw out nanners in the buds and newb me would spent lots of time going over every bud multiple times a week pulling out nanners out of the buds for fear of it seeding my grow, eventually got tired of the daily nanner search and tossed it after 1-2 years. wish i hadn't cause im positive the pollen was sterile, never got a seed out of those nannered plants. and still have never got a plant that i liked so much since. have tried looking for something similar tried some dr greenthumb ecsd, top dawgs chem de la chem and garlic goat but none have come even remotely close to that rank ass chemdog sour diesel unfortunately

JustBlazin said:

ya wish i knew that when i first started growing, i had the rankest chemdog sour diesel from resevior seeds was the stankiest tastiest thing ive grown but unfortunately it would throw out nanners in the buds and newb me would spent lots of time going over every bud multiple times a week pulling out nanners out of the buds for fear of it seeding my grow, eventually got tired of the daily nanner search and tossed it after 1-2 years. wish i hadn't cause im positive the pollen was sterile, never got a seed out of those nannered plants. and still have never got a plant that i liked so much since. have tried looking for something similar tried some dr greenthumb ecsd, top dawgs chem de la chem and garlic goat but none have come even remotely close to that rank ass chemdog sour diesel unfortunately

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yeah I'm new to indoor growing and I must say It's been challenging to say the least (pH lockout issues etc) The genetics that I've been playing with and using to learn originated from a 'hydro dump' that I came across by the side of the road nearly 10 years ago - up my way people keep the buds and dump the rest as the fines are pretty bad whether you posses bud, leaf, stem etc. Any way I grew 2 of the seeds and have just been re cloning both. Yeah really distinct differences in both plants. One smells like sherbert and the other I can only explain as dank? skunk? I don't know but it's good. The dank one is the one which throws nanners all the time and also is having calcium deficiencies which I can't seem to shake. The sherbert one doesn't give me any issues and just has crazy long colas with masses of white pistils exploding out. Anyhow I don't want to get rid of any of them at least until I can grow them as good as they can be grown. I started smoking in the early 90's and back then I just remember skunk and super skunk, some purple 'outdoor' and this kush I believe a friend was growing from sensi seeds stock - Oh and I remember white widow and northern light - both I recall were pretty fluffy buds. I've got a lot of catching up to do when it comes to being able to identify what I'm smoking. I have a dozen well known strains/seeds which I just received and yeah should be good.. Sorry OP for hijack lol

Aussieaceae said:

Agreed and phenotype is a logical explanation for the specific reasons you describe.



That makes much sense. Cheers.



See this is where I have many doubts myself about the theory of rhodelization, from an evolutionary sense.
Why wouldn't it just be hermaphrodites, not the dioecious plants providing this survival mechanism?

Botanists would describe many hermaphrodite inflorescence as a "perfect" or "complete" flower.
Separate female and male inflorescence on a single plant, is categorized differently. It's incomplete, not perfect form.

Also if the calyx is essentially the vessel for seed, why would it be beneficial to grow male inflorescence first, as an intersex plant?

It makes sense for all the males to flower first and spread their pollen. Because they're trying to outcompete the other males, so they can pass on their own genes. And set all the females, or hermaphrodites to seed.



Totally agree mate. And I myself only knows about as much as the next fella.
We're all limited by our own experience and gathered information.

My own problem is suggesting a self pollinated plant with the presence of bananas, or late stage herm is a guarantee of feminised seed.
Or that environment caused the hermi, not it's own genetics.
This is far from my own experience.

Also, there's nothing in any scientific information, or articles that suggest it is true? Or experiment the theory?
At least from what I've tried to search out myself.

I suppose what I'm getting at, is if a single plant or two, out of a dozen or more plants turned hermi, I would never put it down to environment being the cause. Whichever hermi it may be.
Especially when able to regulate the growing environment as well.
I would never, ever use them to make seed either. Just isn't worth the risk or trouble in my own opinion.
It's far from a desirable trait, if other plants in the same grow make it to harvest without growing any.
And why wouldn't it have the potential to pass the same trait on?

In my honest opinion, the theory borders on suggesting dioecious cannabis plants don't exist.
I believe it to be a false assumption that "every" xx female plant has the potential to self pollinate, via male inflorescence,
without chemical manipulation.
And I believe that's what the general botanical science suggests as well?

Really, I do respect your own opinion macsnax.
I have nothing really against plants that throw a few bananas or balls either. I've kept them and smoked them too. They can make for great smoko.
Just think that in OPs case it's not worth the hassle trying to determine whether it's environmentally triggered. And it's too early in flower to start picking nuts and bananas off.

Peace. All the best.

P.S. I honestly think it's a debate suited to a different thread.
I do apologize for my original post where I mentioned it as well. I can see how what I said may seem antagonizing.
Really didn't intend for it to seem that way. Apologies if it did.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you mean about just herms going on to rhodelize. This isn't a hermie trait, it's a survival trait that can be traced back through the evolution of the plant. It's a survival tactic. So if you've ever grown out a male you will notice that they grow a good bit taller than the females. Like you mentioned, they are trying to beat out competition. But they also grow taller simply so the pollen can drop down on the females. And back to hermaphrodites, you're not going to come across many true full blown herms in a lifetime of growing, most of what we see are stress herms. It can be as simple as the environment is different than where it was bred. These kind of herms you can usually pluck the balls off and they won't come back. And you're right about a male coming out of a female selfing itself. Males can pop out of those once in a great while. Something like 1 in 30,000 fems will be a male as well. And when it's found the breeder usually gets put on blast for having stray male pollen floating around his op. And then if you look at male plants, there's a lot of males that will display pistils. These aren't true males and you don't want to breed with them. I just made a batch of seeds (open pollination for preservation) where I had 8 males and one of them started showing pistils, he got the boot lol. Anyway not meaning to clutter up the thread with off topic subjects. Have a good one

macsnax said:

I'm not sure what you mean about just herms going on to rhodelize.
This isn't a hermie trait, it's a survival trait that can be traced back through the evolution of the plant. It's a survival tactic

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I'm saying, how can you suggest it isn't just natural hermaphrodites getting the job done, to keep the genotype alive and thriving?

Why would it be a stress response, if it's a completely natural trait for a phenotype?

Why are hermaphrodite plants any less beneficial, for the purpose of population survival than their counterparts?

Yes it absolutely is a hermi trait. It is the traits of a monecious plant. (hermaphrodite)
A monecious plant doesn't at all mean it's inflorescence is of perfect form either.
It doesn't even mean the pollen has to be viable.
A perfect formed flower has both female and male inflorescence, whilst also possessing the ability to self reproduce.
In every essence of it's technical definition.

Dioecious plants only possess the ability to grow either male, or female inflorescence. And require either the presence of their dioecious counterparts, or monecious plants to reproduce.

Dioecious plants do not possess the ability to express monecious inflorescence without chemical intervention.
They don't possess the chromosomes to do so.

macsnax said:

And back to hermaphrodites, you're not going to come across many true full blown herms in a lifetime of growing, most of what we see are stress herms. It can be as simple as the environment is different than where it was bred. These kind of herms you can usually pluck the balls off and they won't come back. And you're right about a male coming out of a female selfing itself.

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I agree a perfectly formed cannabis flower, would seem rare as hens teeth.
But that by no means is a reason to assume those plants aren't monecious at all.
It is so conflicting with available horticultural information and botanical science.

You are speaking of phenotype reacting to environment. Not environment altering it's own genetic potential.
The very same potential won't change, from environment to environment. Only it's own genetic expression.

I've had a seed or two from a late banana. Seriously who even cares? It's good smoke sometimes.
Most often they don't even have enough time to mature.

My problem is the claim "all bananas make feminised seed". I'm more than convinced from my own experience seeding plants, growing random bag seed, using hermaphrodite seed and available information, that the claim is total bs.

macsnax said:

And you're right about a male coming out of a female selfing itself. Males can pop out of those once in a great while. Something like 1 in 30,000 fems will be a male as well. And when it's found the breeder usually gets put on blast for having stray male pollen floating around his op.

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Yes, but that's theoretically genotype at play there, not phenotype. It's an anomaly.

If you want to convince me Rhodelization is not a made-up cannabroscience theory. Then you need to explain why a dioecious xx female plant, can willingly grow monecious inflorescence, self pollinate itself and produce seed. Please.

I would very much like to see a scientific article, or educational information that demonstrates so.
Also some relevent information on why a dioecious cannabis plant is any different to other dioecious plants. Or why the botanical science is wrong suggesting dioecious cannabis plants exist.

And also please, not some canna-bias study, off some cannabis website on the internet. A real science based article, experiment, or study.
I believe you'll be extremely hard pressed to find one.

How many chromosomes does a monecious plant have?
What's the reason it can grow both male and female reproductive organs on the same plant and self seed?
I believe those questions are likely the most important questions to ask oneself given the conversation's context.

Dioecious female plants are xx chromosome. And when chemically manipulated to express monecious traits, will produce pollen.
Thus using this same pollen on another dioecious xx female, results in xx / feminised seed, correct?

Why would a monecious female plant with different chromosomes, pollinating a dioecious xx female, result in xx feminised seed?
Would seem like pretty "unstable" feminised seed to me.

macsnax said:

And then if you look at male plants, there's a lot of males that will display pistils. These aren't true males and you don't want to breed with them.

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Exactly. Because the plant's inflorescence is monecious.
What makes a female plant exhibiting the same trait any different?

macsnax said:

Anyway not meaning to clutter up the thread with off topic subjects. Have a good one

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Me neither mate I completely agree. It's the reason I said to OP when I first quoted him not to get me started.

This kind of debate needs it's own thread.

My original post was not to antagonize anyone at all. But to express my own experience, information and belief on OPs own circumstance, in relation to the thread heading. It was a direct response and did my best to be brief.
It may as well have been a PM. And maybe should have been.

You too mate. Cheers very much.

Wizzlebiz said:

I dont know why it bothers me so much that people get that wrong but it does.

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Ditto. Well said.

@Aussieaceae Too long bro lol. You really think there's papers out there on these things. I'd like to see them too. These are all things learned during the war on drugs. Observations passed on to the next guy, from many people. There's really not much published about this plant because it's been illegal for so long. Why don't you try to rhodelize a plant and see what happens? It would be far more scientific than calling bs on something you obviously don't know anything about. Give it a shot.

macsnax said:

@Aussieaceae You really think there's papers out there on these things. I'd like to see them too.

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Just did in a more appropriate thread.

Literally just before your post. All good my man.

There's plenty more out there too, if you search it out.
I can find some more reference examples too if you please.

In my opinion there's an especially important link I posted as well. Of a study I just found of Cannabis sativa l / hemp.



Better we debate it further over there.

macsnax said:

@Aussieaceae
Why don't you try to rhodelize a plant and see what happens? It would be far more scientific than calling bs on something you obviously don't know anything about. Give it a shot.

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What makes you so damn sure about your own self, I already haven't?
What makes you so sure I haven't gained a better understanding through education either.
Then observed what other growers and teachers passed on to me?

Quit with the deflection mate. Typical know-it-all response, from someone who hasn't any understanding at all.

I know you're better than that macsnax.
It's a shame you're so defensive and not open to the possibility you might be wrong.

Here's a link to the thread I posted in -


Feel free to troll me there, and change my mind.

Thanks.

i hate it when someone says i am wrong, when i have never been wrong before ever, lol
Megamouth

Aussieaceae said:

What makes you so damn sure about your own self, I already haven't?
What makes you so sure I haven't gained a better understanding through education either.
Then observed what other growers and teachers passed on to me?

Quit with the deflection mate. Typical know-it-all response, from someone who hasn't any understanding at all.

I know you're better than that macsnax.
It's a shame you're so defensive and not open to the possibility you might be wrong.

Here's a link to the thread I posted in -

BroScience Bullshit - Post here

Mosquito Bits. They aren't legal for use by un-licensed persons in the UK I am afraid. I can get them shipped in, but they are stupid expensive. I can get Nematodes. Hydrogen Peroxide and Sticky traps usually fix them, the sticky traps control the adults and the Hydrogen Peroxide controls...

rollitup.org

Feel free to troll me there, and change my mind.

Thanks.

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Because if you had tried it you wouldn't be arguing over it. There was a member here years ago that rhodelized a plant, you might find it if you search. My thing is I really don't have the patience to argue with someone online anymore. You go from trying to be cool to combative, you bipolar bro? It's cool if you are, no shame. Anyway like I said, rhodelize a plant and see for yourself. Sometimes it's best to know for a fact before you make a bunch of noise about something.

macsnax said:

But I've also seen a lot of growers that think they run a tight ship, but don't know half as much as what they think they do. It goes both ways.

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You started it with your own insinuation, lack of modesty and respect.

macsnax said:

@Aussieaceae would be far more scientific than calling bs on something you obviously don't know anything about.

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Then you got all defensive and deflected what I asked you, with this arrogant, ignorant response.

Then next post just being a total arsehole.

macsnax said:

you bipolar bro?

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Yep and very likely autistic too. Very proud and comfortable about it as well.

What's your own excuse, for acting like an arrogant, ignorant, self centred, know-it-all, dumb arsehole?

macsnax said:

Because if you had tried it you wouldn't be arguing over it.

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SMFH!

macsnax said:

If you look at male plants, there's a lot of males that will display pistils. These aren't true males.
And if you look at female plants, there's a lot of females that will display stamen or anthers. These aren't true females and you don't want to breed with them.

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FIFY!

Change my mind through available scientific information without contradiction.
Or accept our own two opinions are far different and leave me the hell alone.

You want to keep trolling, I have no limit "bro".

I gave you the link to a troll thread already.



See you there.

Aussieaceae said:

You started it with your own insinuation, lack of modesty and respect.



Then you got all defensive and deflected what I asked you, with this arrogant, ignorant response.

Then next post just being a total arsehole.



Yep and very likely autistic too. Very proud and comfortable about it as well.

What's your own excuse, for acting like an arrogant, ignorant, self centred, know-it-all, dumb arsehole?



SMFH!



FIFY!

Change my mind through available scientific information without contradiction.
Or accept our own two opinions are far different and leave me the hell alone.

You want to keep trolling, I have no limit "bro".

I gave you the link to a troll thread already.

BroScience Bullshit - Post here

Mosquito Bits. They aren't legal for use by un-licensed persons in the UK I am afraid. I can get them shipped in, but they are stupid expensive. I can get Nematodes. Hydrogen Peroxide and Sticky traps usually fix them, the sticky traps control the adults and the Hydrogen Peroxide controls...

rollitup.org

See you there.

Click to expand...

I guess anything can be taken out of context if you want it to. No trolling here, I try to help people and educate a little from personal experience and knowledge gained from others along the way. The way it's been forever with this plant. Believe what you want, but it still doesn't make it right. No skin off my back how you perceive things.

macsnax said:

I guess anything can be taken out of context if you want it to. No trolling here, I try to help people and educate a little from personal experience and knowledge gained from others along the way. The way it's been forever with this plant. Believe what you want, but it still doesn't make it right. No skin off my back how you perceive things.

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Ditto.

Water off a ducks back to me mate. I honestly don't think any more or less of you for the confrontation. Quite willing and eager to put it behind me. I respect your opinion.

Neither of us should feel the need to have to defend ourselves.

I apologized to you already once before and don't feel the need to again. My original post wasn't intended to antagonize anyone. I still stand by that 100%.

No problem @macsnax. Peace and have a good day.

Aussieaceae said:

Ditto.

Water off a ducks back to me mate. I honestly don't think any more or less of you for the confrontation. Quite willing and eager to put it behind me. I respect your opinion.

Neither of us should feel the need to have to defend ourselves.

I apologized to you already once before and don't feel the need to again. My original post wasn't intended to antagonize anyone. I still stand by that 100%.

No problem @macsnax. Peace and have a good day.

Click to expand...

Same to you, good enough resolution

Killaki said:

Those are swollen calyxes along the main stem. One strain I have always has those. As long as there's no male pollen around those should just be false seed pods. I see no bananas or male pods on this plant.

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My plants just did this 6 weeks into flower there's a little hard faux seed in this one. They're feminized seeds. I had to call on some old timers they said let ride til harvest and my other plants are fine. No fertile Myrtles in there.