Heat from 1200W of 1212's/vero 29's/cxm-22/cxb3590 compared to 2x 600W?
- Thread starter Joe34
- Start date
mahiluana
Well-Known Member
i guess you will have problems to proof that vero 29c is producing significantless heat than cree2530. - just take a "ballon" and measure your vero 29c @ even lower current
as 163mA - you always will produce a lot (70% ~) of heat - even with led light.
I see it like this: incandecent lamp produce ~90% heat
HPS ~80%
LED ~70% .
So only ~30% of your electricity power is converted to light.
You have 1 million different led chips that can deliver more or less light under more or less optimised conditions inside this ~30% area.
Like some cars can do 1000 KM with 30L of fuel and others only 100 KM.
But the good news is: With coolmac watercooled led system it`s so easy and cheap
to use this heat power and integrate it to life.
Coolmac watercooled is able to store 60% of the electrical power(80-85% of the generated heat power) as hot water.
Your previous 30% efficiency can triple up to 90% .
Coolmac is also a patented revolution in led light tecnic, because heat management reach a new dimension.
Thermal grease becomes history and heat transfer a new definition with 10% light efficiency gains only by lower Tj. .
In my case with only 300W lamp i can produce enough hot water for 2 persons.
!!! The savings in hot water compensate the electricity bill of my led lamp.
!!!Energy-efficient electronical products can play an important role against climate change.
Do you need more arguments ?
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Raging Stalk
Active Member
Oh I like your idea and am in full support of it. Innovative and creative plus it makes sense.
less heat than cree2530. - just take a "ballon" and measure your vero 29c @ even lower current
as 163mA - you always will produce a lot (70% ~) of heat - even with led light.
I see it like this: incandecent lamp produce ~90% heat
HPS ~80%
LED ~70% .
So only ~30% of your electricity power is converted to light.
You have 1 million different led chips that can deliver more or less light under more or less optimised conditions inside this ~30% area.
Like some cars can do 1000 KM with 30L of fuel and others only 100 KM.
But the good news is: With coolmac watercooled led system it`s so easy and cheap
to use this heat power and integrate it to life.
Coolmac watercooled is able to store 60% of the electrical power(80-85% of the generated heat power) as hot water.
Your previous 30% efficiency can triple up to 90% .
Coolmac is also a patented revolution in led light tecnic, because heat management reach a new dimension.
Thermal grease becomes history and heat transfer a new definition with 10% light efficiency gains only by lower Tj. .
In my case with only 300W lamp i can produce enough hot water for 2 persons.
!!! The savings in hot water compensate the electricity bill of my led lamp.
Energy-efficient electronical products can play an important role against climate change.
Do you need more arguments ?
I am just not seeing the same with my setups using the Veros. 6 mounted to a 8x16" 1/8th 6031 al plate is measuring 37-39c at Tj in a 23c ambient environment when run between 30-46w each. If I turn off the fans, Tj reaches 74c which is still well within acceptable operating conditions.
If I use Fourier's law to calculate the conductive heat transfer, here is what I get using my numbers. Reference link:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/conductive-heat-transfer-d_428.html
q = k A dT /s
q = power (W, or J/s)
k = thermal conductivity of material (167W/m-k for Al 6031)
A= 8x16" x 2 (2 sides) 0.1651m2
dT = 16c (delta between ambient and Tj temps)
s = 1/8th" 0.003175m
q works out to 138944J which is 138944W/s.
Next, I have to figure out how long it takes to reach equilibrium going from ambient to 39c to get an understanding of how many watts per second are generating heat from the cob to the plate. Like you, I have found that it takes about 20 minutes to reach equilibrium pushing 46w to each cob. That is approximately 115.8w of heat transfer per second from all 6 cobs onto the plate.
115.8w/264w is 44% of input power being used as heat, or another way, the Light is 56%. According to the bridgelux spreadsheet, a 20C 3000k 80cri is 192lm/w at 46w, with a LER of 322, that's 59.6% efficiency.
My real world number is only 3% off the simulator which is probably within margin of error or can be influenced by other factors such as thermal resistance of material, etc.
So that is what I found. To be more accurate I can probably do a better job with the timing but I just took this first crack to make sure I wouldn't blow these things up. Disclaimer, I am not 100% on the math, method used, just the measurements taken being within the acceptable margins of error for the measuring device.
Feel free to critique, just like everyone else, I want to improve if possible.
mahiluana
Well-Known Member
Hi man - just get the courage to wrap it in a waterfilled condom - not inside !!! - in between.
I wonder that worlds great led companies are not able to seal a chip IP68 and hang it into water.
Raging Stalk
Active Member
I know, that is a little out there. The thermal transfer rate is probably terrible through latex or whatever material the condom is made of.
Maybe try it with an aluminum can?
mahiluana
Well-Known Member
it`s not plane - and a chip have 2 sides, where heat is emitted - not only at the bottom of the led platine.
That`s why a condom or a latexballon is just perfect.
Can`t believe
- are you virgin or roman catholic priest ? 
Pulpit_
Well-Known Member
6031 is not a common grade, are you sure it's not 6061 ? 6000 series aluminum is expensive, look for 1100 series aluminum as it will have better thermal conductivity. It's way cheaper also, you should be able to buy 1/4" plate for what you're spending in 1/8" sheet in 6000 series. 3003 would be my second choice.....they sure are keeping you busy on the canuck forum ! lol
Raging Stalk
Active Member
Thanks for that advice! Definitely will have to look into it.
The metal shop guy said 6031 was pretty common but yeah, if the 3003 is better I will get it next time.
Yeah those ignorant fools in the Canadian Patients forum are an embarrassment to all Canadians. Just trying to do my part and raise the intelligence average over there up to something respectable.
Plus its fun. Join in if you want. Being in the LED section, its fairly obvious I support growing but they have labelled me an LP schill whatever that means.
Pulpit_
Well-Known Member
I can tell you are having fun with them, the others not so much....haha. I am not entering that shit storm brother. They think you work for a LP, I have read a few of your posts in LED, it's real obvious you are a grower.
frica
Well-Known Member
A lot more efficient
An XTE Royal Blue is up to 57% efficient at 0.35A for example.
http://www.cree.com/LED-Components-and-Modules/Products/XLamp/Discrete-Directional/XLamp-XTE-Royal
Joe34
Active Member
The fundamental point here seems to be whether the heat emitted from light generated is the same as heat generated from loss, IMO it wouldn't be, but thats me(maybe raging stalk too) vs everybody else.
If the two are not the same, then it can't be true that 10 leds at 10% = the same heat as 1 LED at 100%... because more energy spent on light than on loss...
Where am I going wrong here?
If the two are not the same, then it can't be true that 10 leds at 10% = the same heat as 1 LED at 100%... because more energy spent on light than on loss...
Where am I going wrong here?
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Raging Stalk
Active Member
Oh, ok. Why in the world would I work for them? Work is for the foolish! Once you retire you live life.
But yeah, it is fun, that is why I offered up to share in the joy. I took a nap today for a few hours and now there is over 100 alerts! Talk about crazy people.
Raging Stalk
Active Member
Hey Joe, I replied to your mail so hopefully that answered your question. In summary, heat is produced when the cob generates light (we don't want this) and the light itself carries energy which will turn into heat when it hits something. We like that heat because plants like that heat.
My concern is that my Tj temps will be within operating spec which is what I focus on. The rest are referring to how much the growing area temperature will rise because of the heat from both the light generation and the light hitting surfaces.
FYI - plants only use about 3-4% of the light they are subjected to. Rest is wasted. Put another way it is like skeet shooting with buck shot, we only need one of those pellets, or photons to do the job. Well, more correctly 8 red photons.
MeGaKiLlErMaN
Well-Known Member
Interesting thread, its not exactly known how long it takes for the light energy thats produced to turn into heat from COBs, but it does happen eventually. I did notice that my 800W Cob setup produced way less heat in a closed environment COBS were at 75F and DE HPS was at 95F. That was the ambient equilibrium I reached at least.
Joe34
Active Member
@MeGaKiLlErMaN You said that your 800W Cob produced less heat than a 800W DE HPS, this is pretty much my entire point from the start...
MeGaKiLlErMaN
Well-Known Member
it was a 1000W DE HPS, and closer to 830W but that was me letting the room get to a temp that it wouldnt increase. Ill retest when I get my 1000W COB setup or 900 whatever I decide on.
Joe34
Active Member
Ok, from my experience over the years diff sources at similar wattage have produced diff room tempts too.
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Raging Stalk
Active Member
Yeah you have to take air flow, other forms of cooling, etc into consideration when you are looking at the total heat.
Or to put another way, my heat sink for the entire system is the ground and the air I bring in and out of the lighting environment.
Or to put another way, my heat sink for the entire system is the ground and the air I bring in and out of the lighting environment.
mahiluana
Well-Known Member
just measured the heat of XTE royal blue - and i have bad news for you.
Too much heat !
Too much lumen/W ? I don`t know - but it`s hard to believe. I`m just confused.How can they(cree) believe in 619.7 lm/W ???????????????????
There must be something wrong on this page:
http://pct.cree.com/dt/index.html
0.350 A ......................here is the data for your mentioned XTE royal blue @350mA
650.7 Led lm............. data for lumens must be fake. Several other blue data also - compare to
619.7 lm/W................ XM-L wich seems to be more real.
3 Vf
1.05 Led W
0.500 A ..................... i measured the heat of XT-E @ 500mA with 3,08 V for ten minutes
888.5 Led lm............. and i received 1,3W of heat power. That means around 80% heat power
574.7 lm/W................ from input.
3.09 Vf
1.546 Led W
So the reference, when you say up to 57% efficiency can`t be the total input of electrical power.
Maybe your 100% is part of the electric power, that is ! not ! converted to heat.
The light transmittance is still very good. I estimate >90%
Blue light passes much better through water than red light.
Even if 10% - 30% of the light energy would be lost in the water and get converted into heat -
wouldn`t explain 80% heat energy in total as in a coolmac led system you can store ~ 60%
of total input as heat energy if you tap it only from the backside of the chip and let the light stream free to the room.
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Photon Flinger
Well-Known Member
Well I guess it was too much for admins here to deal with the feral monkeys throwing a massive hissy fit over in the Canadian Patients forum and Raging Stalk is no longer a usable entity here.
Anyhow, I will keep an eye the LED sub forum for any new discoveries. May come back once I get some data from the Vero 29s.
Lots of fun though!