Hardwood fines stored in barn for 3+ years - risk of pests or mites?

N

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
Cleaning out the barn and have a bag of hardwood fines that has been sitting there for I know at least 3 or more years. I know people talk about pine bark fines as a soil amendment and was contemplating if I wanted to incorporate any of this in my next soil mix.

My first hesitation is the whole hardwood fines vs bine park fines and knowing the difference. The second was considering that its been sitting in a barn outside I'm hoping there's low to no risk of mites or other pests - or at least no more risk that I get from using a bag of Bu's compost, store bought castings, etc.

I usually keep things in my garage so the risk of pests is (in theory) lower, i.e. I've got some spagnum peat moss that has been sitting forever as well along with some other goodies. Just uncertain if the garage vs barn would really be that different and the risks that come from each.

Being so old and no food source for the pests I'm hoping everything should be dead and there's no risk but wanted some other opinions first.
 
W

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
NewGrower2011 said:
Cleaning out the barn and have a bag of hardwood fines that has been sitting there for I know at least 3 or more years. I know people talk about pine bark fines as a soil amendment and was contemplating if I wanted to incorporate any of this in my next soil mix.

My first hesitation is the whole hardwood fines vs bine park fines and knowing the difference. The second was considering that its been sitting in a barn outside I'm hoping there's low to no risk of mites or other pests - or at least no more risk that I get from using a bag of Bu's compost, store bought castings, etc.

I usually keep things in my garage so the risk of pests is (in theory) lower, i.e. I've got some spagnum peat moss that has been sitting forever as well along with some other goodies. Just uncertain if the garage vs barn would really be that different and the risks that come from each.

Being so old and no food source for the pests I'm hoping everything should be dead and there's no risk but wanted some other opinions first.
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Even with pine there is a big difference in benefits between the bark and interior 'wood'.

Try some, but *I* would certainly make sure the pine bark is incorporated into the mix.

Wet
 
N

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
I was wondering about that angle, thanks for confirming. IIRC there is a use for hardwoods and that was in making bio-char which I don't plan to dick around with that I'll just buy a bag. ;-)
 
MustangStudFarm

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
NewGrower2011 said:
Cleaning out the barn and have a bag of hardwood fines that has been sitting there for I know at least 3 or more years. I know people talk about pine bark fines as a soil amendment and was contemplating if I wanted to incorporate any of this in my next soil mix.

My first hesitation is the whole hardwood fines vs bine park fines and knowing the difference. The second was considering that its been sitting in a barn outside I'm hoping there's low to no risk of mites or other pests - or at least no more risk that I get from using a bag of Bu's compost, store bought castings, etc.

I usually keep things in my garage so the risk of pests is (in theory) lower, i.e. I've got some spagnum peat moss that has been sitting forever as well along with some other goodies. Just uncertain if the garage vs barn would really be that different and the risks that come from each.

Being so old and no food source for the pests I'm hoping everything should be dead and there's no risk but wanted some other opinions first.
Click to expand...
If you soak it in N and compost it, then it should be good. If you add it straight to the soil, it will sequester N from the soil much like biochar would... Also, I have a theory why @Wetdog has good luck with Greensand and Pine bark fines, it's manganese. Pine likes to grow in acidic soil which makes Mn more available to the plant. I've actually heard of blueberry growers getting Mn in toxic amount and that's what piqued my interest. Every soil test that I have done with potting soil has came back very low in Mn, until I addressed the issue. It's been a very complicated issue to fix, but I think that Wetdog had the remedy and might not have known exactly why, which is what I see with the hippy methods too. They have great practical knowledge that works and has been passed down, but might not understand the science behind it. I wasn't lucky enough to have a teacher, so I leaned on soil testing to learn. Basically, I just got a better understanding of why Wetdog and hippies do the things that they do. Now that I know better, I wouldn't go against them, but I always didn't know better.

I was taught to compost with comfrey, nettle, borage, and similar plants by the "Hippy Method". The person that was teaching me this didn't fully understand why they did this, only that it worked. Then, I found out that these plants are high in iron, calcium, and other micronutrients and they all help lower the excess of P that I always deal with. It addressed both issues that I was having, high P and low trace minerals(micronutrients).

Wetdog got me using greensand, even if he doesn't realize, and it has been great for me. I find that it works better in the compost and it could actually replace the plants that I listed earlier, or complement them in the compost. It's very hard to find a good source of Mn and greensand is one. I find greensand to be the underrated rock dust of them all and if I had only 1 amendment to use in my compost, it would be greensand. I did find a native plant in my backyard called Lambsquarter and it has a good amount of Mn, so I'll be keeping an eye out for patches of it on the country side. Sorry, I def rattled on just now...
 
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MustangStudFarm

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
I forgot to mention that wood material has lignin and it produces humic acid when composted. Dr. Faust said that you need woody material to get humic acid and it takes about 2yrs to develop. I know you didn't ask "how do I compost these wood fines" but I gave you the answer anyways lol...
 
N

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
I've been looking for that greensand I have lying around somewhere. ;-) That's what led me into the barn in the first place! This old hardwood fines stuff is from the ex who was into bonsai and used it along with turface and a few other goodies that they use in that hobby a good bit.

My biggest concern was pest risk vs how well it would work and what it contributes but the lignin makes a lot of sense as well - one of the NFTG goodies I was using specifically is said to contribute lignin which was of interest to me.

As I stall for cooler months to get here I've got my next mix already sitting and getting a nice white beard in some totes after some barley and EM love were added with fresh Bu's and EWC. Almost all of my goodies are shipped and due here by Tuesday so I can get my P levels up a little bit as the N is high and the K is a tad low once balancing things out. This time I'm trying seabird guano (granular for soil mix, powdered for teas) as I've not used any guanos so far (avoiding bat due to their habitat being destroyed). Once it's all done and has set at least 2 weeks I'll be getting my soil tested again. ;-)

That last inputs I'm considering is some calcined clay (montmorillinite based). I was trying to find Turface locally but they only have AllSport, not MVP and I keep hearing that the oil-dry stuff from Napa is the same (not the DE based version) but this stuff (https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NFC6040?partTypeName=Engine+Oil+Absorbent&keywordInput=oil+dry). That and some kitty liter brands seem to be calcium bentonite based which is 2nd place but close to the montmorillinite stuff if I follow correctly.

I'm on the fence but was also considering adding some basalt (small amount already in there) and looking at this combo (https://store.rockdustlocal.com/St-George-Black-40-lbs-Basalt-Microfines-32-lbs_p_20.html) which interestingly that site says the basalt contains trace minerals including boron which I do need. And I've got this monstrous bag of Azomite from years ago I've barely made a dent in.
 
N

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
With my N being a tad high, not pre-soaking may prove beneficial in my case; Especially if it sucks it up and then makes it become slow release.
 
W

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
MustangStudFarm said:
If you soak it in N and compost it, then it should be good. If you add it straight to the soil, it will sequester N from the soil much like biochar would... Also, I have a theory why @Wetdog has good luck with Greensand and Pine bark fines, it's manganese. Pine likes to grow in acidic soil which makes Mn more available to the plant. I've actually heard of blueberry growers getting Mn in toxic amount and that's what piqued my interest. Every soil test that I have done with potting soil has came back very low in Mn, until I addressed the issue. It's been a very complicated issue to fix, but I think that Wetdog had the remedy and might not have known exactly why, which is what I see with the hippy methods too. They have great practical knowledge that works and has been passed down, but might not understand the science behind it. I wasn't lucky enough to have a teacher, so I leaned on soil testing to learn. Basically, I just got a better understanding of why Wetdog and hippies do the things that they do. Now that I know better, I wouldn't go against them, but I always didn't know better.

I was taught to compost with comfrey, nettle, borage, and similar plants by the "Hippy Method". The person that was teaching me this didn't fully understand why they did this, only that it worked. Then, I found out that these plants are high in iron, calcium, and other micronutrients and they all help lower the excess of P that I always deal with. It addressed both issues that I was having, high P and low trace minerals(micronutrients).

Wetdog got me using greensand, even if he doesn't realize, and it has been great for me. I find that it works better in the compost and it could actually replace the plants that I listed earlier, or complement them in the compost. It's very hard to find a good source of Mn and greensand is one. I find greensand to be the underrated rock dust of them all and if I had only 1 amendment to use in my compost, it would be greensand. I did find a native plant in my backyard called Lambsquarter and it has a good amount of Mn, so I'll be keeping an eye out for patches of it on the country side. Sorry, I def rattled on just now...
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Totally agree that both pine bark fines and Greensand are neglected/ignored and they both bring so much to the table. I think the only 'recipe' I've seen greensand listed in was a very old LC's #1, or #2 mix from over 10 years ago.

I use both Azomite and Greensand, but if I had to make a choice, Greensand would win everytime.

Pine bark has been a part of my basic mix since I was taught it in 1972. Yow! 48 years now. Never knew why and neither did the guy who taught me, it just worked. Same with Greensand, but I did get a why with that. Got a why on the pine bark with researching mycellium and fungal soils, but only in the last 8-10 years.

Wet

Wet
 
N

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
So it still sounds like the fines I have, hard-wood, aren't worth adding really - it's the soft-woods/pine bark fines that are desirable. I guess my only question then isn't so much "how much it contributes versus another choice" but rather "verify it doesn't hurt anything".

Otherwise those old fines are gonna get tossed in the woods as I don't want them in the barn anymore (its small) and don't have a use for them otherwise. Was hoping they added some goodness to the mix for the sake of not just tossing them and some diversity in the mix. I'm definitely aiming for diversity with things as it sounds like it could only help unless you do something really off.

Thanks to all for the input. Getting close to the final mix and letting 'er cook a bit. The fungal mat I have before adding some more of original mix in to get more material exposed to fungal growth was a thick mat for sure. Notably thick when mixing in new goodies as it took some effort to just break it up! So that's promising so far.
 
N

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
My last order finally arrived to get my P levels up so I'm into my final 'let it cook' phase.

Ended up adding 1/4 cup each of Azomite, Greensand, Seabird Guano (pellet), Seabird Guano (powder) and Rock Phosphate. Then to balance my K, I needed just a dash more so 1/4 cup of Kelp meal went in too.

Previously I had a thick fungal mat from the EM and barley going but I added some of the actual soil mix itself to start getting it to take on some of that growth and since then I already had nice white fuzzy beard coming back. I had some of my old'ish EM sitting with some fresh molasses for a few days then used that and some fish juice and gave things a nice wetting down and covered it all back up.

I figure I'll let it sit 2 weeks then make final mix to dilute further and balance things out before sending that next soil test in. Fingers crossed, the test will tell all. I just hate waiting on test results! Grrr. Wish we could just buy a fancy probe and hook up to our phones and get the same test - one can dream right?
 
N

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
Interestingly enough, hardly any sign of fungal growth since I mixed & wet it down again with fresh EM. I know I've read that P can block fungal growth and it's in high concentration here as this isn't the full volume of soil I've got sitting with the other goodies. My plan was to get it breaking down and then add into the final fix but I'm thinking it might make sense to mix now and let it sit to dilute the P levels and get fungal growth going again.

Any advantage to sitting in hot ass garage vs inside in climate controlled 70's; Trying to not lug soil up & down stairs but I was letting the new stuff sit in the garage thinking the warmer temps was a plus.
 
W

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
NewGrower2011 said:
I've been looking for that greensand I have lying around somewhere. ;-) That's what led me into the barn in the first place! This old hardwood fines stuff is from the ex who was into bonsai and used it along with turface and a few other goodies that they use in that hobby a good bit.

My biggest concern was pest risk vs how well it would work and what it contributes but the lignin makes a lot of sense as well - one of the NFTG goodies I was using specifically is said to contribute lignin which was of interest to me.

As I stall for cooler months to get here I've got my next mix already sitting and getting a nice white beard in some totes after some barley and EM love were added with fresh Bu's and EWC. Almost all of my goodies are shipped and due here by Tuesday so I can get my P levels up a little bit as the N is high and the K is a tad low once balancing things out. This time I'm trying seabird guano (granular for soil mix, powdered for teas) as I've not used any guanos so far (avoiding bat due to their habitat being destroyed). Once it's all done and has set at least 2 weeks I'll be getting my soil tested again. ;-)

That last inputs I'm considering is some calcined clay (montmorillinite based). I was trying to find Turface locally but they only have AllSport, not MVP and I keep hearing that the oil-dry stuff from Napa is the same (not the DE based version) but this stuff (https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NFC6040?partTypeName=Engine+Oil+Absorbent&keywordInput=oil+dry). That and some kitty liter brands seem to be calcium bentonite based which is 2nd place but close to the montmorillinite stuff if I follow correctly.

I'm on the fence but was also considering adding some basalt (small amount already in there) and looking at this combo (https://store.rockdustlocal.com/St-George-Black-40-lbs-Basalt-Microfines-32-lbs_p_20.html) which interestingly that site says the basalt contains trace minerals including boron which I do need. And I've got this monstrous bag of Azomite from years ago I've barely made a dent in.
Click to expand...
The name Azomite is also a description... A-Z Of Minerals Including Trace Elements. Totally complete, where some (most?), rock dusts are missing something. I use Azomite to make sure I have *everything* covered and Greensand which is particulary rich
in K and iron and IIRC very complete by itself.

*I* would check out the cost of a similar sized bag of Greensand to the same of the basalt. If costs are similar, IMO the Greensand will give you more bang for the buck.

When I was still using Granite for RD, I could get a 5 gallon bucketful (78lbs), for $5.50. You supplied the bucket and the shovel. I usually just got 1/2 to 3/4 of a bucket. That shit is heavy!!!

I quit using it when I started using Greensand and found it was well worth the extra cost and went for the 30/40lb bag. Right now, I'm top dressing it around the 2 Chestnt trees. Got 1 done and a T-Storm shut me down, but I'll get the other one after it blows over.

You're covered for now with the Azomite and do deep research before a costs/benefit between the Basalt/Greensand before you plunk down any $$$.

Wet
 
N

NewGrower2011

Well-Known Member
True, I hate paying to ship rocks across the f'ing country. That's about as great as shipping watered down salts & minerals. I'm trying to stick with dry nutes here on as it really is silly to pay for shipping water.

When I looked locally I wasn't finding anything basalt based but I just hit the quick & easy landscape company choices around here so far. I'll probably skip it this time around and see where things stand after the next soil test.
 
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