Hamas offensive against Israel

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Agreed, but then that is not what this is.
There is a lot of ambiguity in the middle east situation that does not exist with Russia's repeated invasions of Ukraine. It is a war of imperialistic expansion in violation of international law and world order, not to mention several agreements they signed, some of which involved western security assurances for giving up nukes. The human rights atrocities and leveling cities for shits and giggles isn't help their cause in the west and particularly in Europe who saw the Nazis all over again only worse. Vlad is an indicted war criminal, but so far no one in the Israeli government, however they are going extreme right in their own particular way and the reaction to all this might be unacceptable to the west or the UN. A lot of public support is about perception and facts, the international terrorism of the Palestinians made them all terrorists in the eyes of many for decades. Stateless nations or weak ones need outside support in today's world and that means good PR and obeying the law or appearing to, at least. It depends on the nature of the government oppressing them and Israel has not set up concentration camps, yet! One cannot say the same for Russia and China, however, in WW2 the resistance were terrorists to the Germans and many a sentry's throat has been cut in the dark or a railway track blown up by patriots.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Let's hope Gaza doesn't end up like the Warsaw ghetto in WW2, it would be ironic as well as tragic. 2 million people penned in an urban area slated for destruction by aerial bombardment and they have nowhere to go.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
Agreed, but then that is not what this is.
Why are so many Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails?
In golf carts, vans and on motorbikes, Hamas fighters have taken dozens of Israeli civilians and soldiers back to the Gaza Strip after their attack on Israel on Saturday.

As Israel’s fighter jets bomb the Gaza Strip in retaliation against the surprise Hamas assault, the Palestinian group has said that it plans to use the captured Israelis to strike a deal for the release of Palestinians in Israel’s prisons.

But just how many Palestinians are currently in Israeli custody? And how many of them are children?

Many would argue that all of Gaza is effectively an open-air prison — 2.2 million people blockaded by Israel in a tiny coastal enclave.

But the number of Palestinians who have actually spent time in Israeli jails too is of a similar order. Since 1967, when Israel occupied East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, it has arrested an estimated one million Palestinians, the United Nations reported last summer.

One in every five Palestinians has been arrested and charged under the 1,600 military orders that control every aspect of the lives of Palestinians living under the Israeli military occupation. That incarceration rate doubles for Palestinian men — two in every five have been arrested.

By comparison, in the United States, the country notorious for the world’s largest prison population, one in 200 people is imprisoned. The imprisonment rate among Black Americans is more than three times the overall rate — but even then is a tiny fraction of an average Palestinian’s likelihood of spending time in jail.

Palestinian Prisoner rights group Addameer has described the Israeli prison system as a “complex of monstrous machinery in form, laws, procedures, and policies…designed to liquidate and kill”.

Today, the number of Palestinians currently behind Israeli bars is 5,200, including 33 women and 170 children. If tried, Palestinian prisoners are prosecuted in military courts.

Two months after Israel occupied Palestinian and Arab territories in the 1967 war, its government issued Military Order 101 which essentially criminalised civic activities under the basis of “hostile propaganda and prohibition of incitement”.

The order, which is still in use in the occupied West Bank, outlaws the participation and organisation of protests, printing and distributing political material, waving flags and other political symbols, and any activity that demonstrates sympathy for an organisation deemed illegal under military orders.

Three years later, another military order (378) was issued by the Israeli government. This established military courts, and basically outlawed all forms of Palestinian resistance to the Israeli occupation as “terrorism”.

Hundreds of other military orders have been issued and implemented since then to curtail any Palestinian civic and political expression.

There are 19 prisons within Israel and one inside the occupied West Bank that hold Palestinian prisoners.

Under the Fourth Geneva Convention, it is against international law for an occupying power to transfer an occupied people from the occupied territory.

“It is unlawful and cruel and the consequences for the imprisoned person and their loved ones, who are often deprived from seeing them for months, and at times for years on end, can be devastating,” Amnesty International has previously said.

There are 1,264 Palestinian administrative detainees, which means that they are held indefinitely behind bars without facing trial or any charges. This practice, a remnant of the British Mandate era, can be extended indefinitely based on “secret evidence”, meaning that a detainee can spend months if not years in prison without being charged.

While Israel says the procedure allows authorities to hold suspects while continuing to gather evidence, critics and rights groups say the system is widely abused and denies due process.

Since the outbreak of the second Intifada in 2000, more than 12,000 Palestinian children have been detained by Israeli forces.

At least 700 Palestinian children under the age of 18 from the occupied West Bank are prosecuted every year through Israeli military courts after being arrested, interrogated and detained by the Israeli army.

Addameer describes the arrest and imprisonment of children as systemic and part of a collective punishment campaign.

The most common charge is throwing stones, which is punishable by a maximum punishment of 20 years.

The children are often subjected to physical and psychological torture, according to child rights groups. They are interrogated without the presence of a parent or lawyer, and critics have accused Israel of exploiting their detention to turn them into informants and to extort their families financially by forcing them to pay huge fines.

Military Order 1726 states that children can be held in preventative detention for 15 days before an indictment is submitted and that a military court can extend that detention by 10 days each time for a maximum of 40 times.

Military Order 1745 stipulates that interrogation sessions of children should be audiovisually recorded in a language understood by children, but excludes children arrested under security pretexts which refers to all Palestinian child detainees.

Under Military Order 132, Palestinian children aged 16 and older were previously tried and sentenced by Israeli military courts as adults.

Furthermore, Palestinian children continue to be charged according to their age at the time of sentencing, instead of their age at the time of the alleged offence, as provided by international law.

In August 2016, Israel changed its law that stated that children under 14 could not be held criminally responsible. This was done after Israeli authorities waited for Ahmed Manasra, who was 13 years old at the time of his arrest, to turn 14 before charging him with attempted murder and sentencing him to 12 years – which was later commuted down to nine.
 

k0rps

Well-Known Member
Let's hope Gaza doesn't end up like the Warsaw ghetto in WW2, it would be ironic as well as tragic. 2 million people penned in an urban area slated for destruction by aerial bombardment and they have nowhere to go.
"Gaza is in essence a refugee camp (about 70 percent of those living in Gaza come from families displaced from the 1948 war) and an open-air prison, according to human rights groups. The United Nations describes the occupied territory as a “chronic humanitarian crisis.” Israel has blockaded Gaza since Hamas assumed control of the territory in 2007, and neighboring Egypt to the south has also imposed severe restrictions on movement.

Between them, Israel and Egypt monitor the entry and exit of all people, vehicles, and goods. They have not allowed enough construction materials and humanitarian items into the occupied Gaza Strip to enable the battered territory to rebuild from recurring episodes of deadly Israeli bombardments that are allegedly meant to target Hamas, but that often include civilian death tolls in the very dense territory."

 
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DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Why are so many Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails?
In golf carts, vans and on motorbikes, Hamas fighters have taken dozens of Israeli civilians and soldiers back to the Gaza Strip after their attack on Israel on Saturday.

As Israel’s fighter jets bomb the Gaza Strip in retaliation against the surprise Hamas assault, the Palestinian group has said that it plans to use the captured Israelis to strike a deal for the release of Palestinians in Israel’s prisons.

But just how many Palestinians are currently in Israeli custody? And how many of them are children?

Many would argue that all of Gaza is effectively an open-air prison — 2.2 million people blockaded by Israel in a tiny coastal enclave.

But the number of Palestinians who have actually spent time in Israeli jails too is of a similar order. Since 1967, when Israel occupied East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, it has arrested an estimated one million Palestinians, the United Nations reported last summer.

One in every five Palestinians has been arrested and charged under the 1,600 military orders that control every aspect of the lives of Palestinians living under the Israeli military occupation. That incarceration rate doubles for Palestinian men — two in every five have been arrested.

By comparison, in the United States, the country notorious for the world’s largest prison population, one in 200 people is imprisoned. The imprisonment rate among Black Americans is more than three times the overall rate — but even then is a tiny fraction of an average Palestinian’s likelihood of spending time in jail.

Palestinian Prisoner rights group Addameer has described the Israeli prison system as a “complex of monstrous machinery in form, laws, procedures, and policies…designed to liquidate and kill”.

Today, the number of Palestinians currently behind Israeli bars is 5,200, including 33 women and 170 children. If tried, Palestinian prisoners are prosecuted in military courts.

Two months after Israel occupied Palestinian and Arab territories in the 1967 war, its government issued Military Order 101 which essentially criminalised civic activities under the basis of “hostile propaganda and prohibition of incitement”.

The order, which is still in use in the occupied West Bank, outlaws the participation and organisation of protests, printing and distributing political material, waving flags and other political symbols, and any activity that demonstrates sympathy for an organisation deemed illegal under military orders.

Three years later, another military order (378) was issued by the Israeli government. This established military courts, and basically outlawed all forms of Palestinian resistance to the Israeli occupation as “terrorism”.

Hundreds of other military orders have been issued and implemented since then to curtail any Palestinian civic and political expression.

There are 19 prisons within Israel and one inside the occupied West Bank that hold Palestinian prisoners.

Under the Fourth Geneva Convention, it is against international law for an occupying power to transfer an occupied people from the occupied territory.

“It is unlawful and cruel and the consequences for the imprisoned person and their loved ones, who are often deprived from seeing them for months, and at times for years on end, can be devastating,” Amnesty International has previously said.

There are 1,264 Palestinian administrative detainees, which means that they are held indefinitely behind bars without facing trial or any charges. This practice, a remnant of the British Mandate era, can be extended indefinitely based on “secret evidence”, meaning that a detainee can spend months if not years in prison without being charged.

While Israel says the procedure allows authorities to hold suspects while continuing to gather evidence, critics and rights groups say the system is widely abused and denies due process.

Since the outbreak of the second Intifada in 2000, more than 12,000 Palestinian children have been detained by Israeli forces.

At least 700 Palestinian children under the age of 18 from the occupied West Bank are prosecuted every year through Israeli military courts after being arrested, interrogated and detained by the Israeli army.

Addameer describes the arrest and imprisonment of children as systemic and part of a collective punishment campaign.

The most common charge is throwing stones, which is punishable by a maximum punishment of 20 years.

The children are often subjected to physical and psychological torture, according to child rights groups. They are interrogated without the presence of a parent or lawyer, and critics have accused Israel of exploiting their detention to turn them into informants and to extort their families financially by forcing them to pay huge fines.

Military Order 1726 states that children can be held in preventative detention for 15 days before an indictment is submitted and that a military court can extend that detention by 10 days each time for a maximum of 40 times.

Military Order 1745 stipulates that interrogation sessions of children should be audiovisually recorded in a language understood by children, but excludes children arrested under security pretexts which refers to all Palestinian child detainees.

Under Military Order 132, Palestinian children aged 16 and older were previously tried and sentenced by Israeli military courts as adults.

Furthermore, Palestinian children continue to be charged according to their age at the time of sentencing, instead of their age at the time of the alleged offence, as provided by international law.

In August 2016, Israel changed its law that stated that children under 14 could not be held criminally responsible. This was done after Israeli authorities waited for Ahmed Manasra, who was 13 years old at the time of his arrest, to turn 14 before charging him with attempted murder and sentencing him to 12 years – which was later commuted down to nine.
Sounds a lot like what the Germans did to the Jews before WW2, repression and bigotry based on religion and ethnicity, the Gaza strip is a lot like the Warsaw ghetto or might soon be. Like I said, there is too much ambiguity in this conflict for one to take sides, on the one hand you have the history of international terrorism of the Palestinians and on the other hand Israel acting more and more like the Nazis. Even its own citizens are protesting the erosion of the rule of law in Israel and this current episode might reveal how far fascism on the right has gone. We will see if Bebe levels the Gaza strip with bombs to the horror of the world.
 

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
Sounds a lot like what the Germans did to the Jews before WW2, repression and bigotry based on religion and ethnicity, the Gaza strip is a lot like the Warsaw ghetto or might soon be. Like I said, there is too much ambiguity in this conflict for one to take sides, on the one hand you have the history of international terrorism of the Palestinians and on the other hand Israel acting more and more like the Nazis. Even its own citizens are protesting the erosion of the rule of law in Israel and this current episode might reveal how far fascism on the right has gone. We will see if Bebe levels the Gaza strip with bombs to the horror of the world.
It's gonna be ugly, half of the population (of the Gaza Strip) will be gone in a few weeks. Oh snap..just took a quick look of that section... wow, that little tiny strip caused all this commotion!?
1696788396339.png
 

k0rps

Well-Known Member
"While settler attacks are a frequent, near-daily reality for Palestinian villages, the number and intensity of attacks increase during the olive harvest season which runs until November, as settlers target families working on their lands.

On October 12, settlers uprooted 900 olive and apricot saplings, and stole olive crops in the village of Sebastia, north of Nablus. A further 70 olive trees were destroyed in Masafer Yatta, south of Hebron.

In Awarta, east of Nablus, settlers chopped down dozens of olive trees on October 13 and sprayed them with chemicals. They also destroyed some 70 olive, fruit and vegetable trees in al-Tuwani south of Hebron, and slashed tyres, and vandalised cars and walls in the village of Marda near Salfit."


Harvest

History

Testimony
 

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
"While settler attacks are a frequent, near-daily reality for Palestinian villages, the number and intensity of attacks increase during the olive harvest season which runs until November, as settlers target families working on their lands.

On October 12, settlers uprooted 900 olive and apricot saplings, and stole olive crops in the village of Sebastia, north of Nablus. A further 70 olive trees were destroyed in Masafer Yatta, south of Hebron.

In Awarta, east of Nablus, settlers chopped down dozens of olive trees on October 13 and sprayed them with chemicals. They also destroyed some 70 olive, fruit and vegetable trees in al-Tuwani south of Hebron, and slashed tyres, and vandalised cars and walls in the village of Marda near Salfit."


Harvest

History

Testimony
How else could you build on the land otherwise?
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Why are so many Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails?
In golf carts, vans and on motorbikes, Hamas fighters have taken dozens of Israeli civilians and soldiers back to the Gaza Strip after their attack on Israel on Saturday.

As Israel’s fighter jets bomb the Gaza Strip in retaliation against the surprise Hamas assault, the Palestinian group has said that it plans to use the captured Israelis to strike a deal for the release of Palestinians in Israel’s prisons.

But just how many Palestinians are currently in Israeli custody? And how many of them are children?

Many would argue that all of Gaza is effectively an open-air prison — 2.2 million people blockaded by Israel in a tiny coastal enclave.

But the number of Palestinians who have actually spent time in Israeli jails too is of a similar order. Since 1967, when Israel occupied East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, it has arrested an estimated one million Palestinians, the United Nations reported last summer.

One in every five Palestinians has been arrested and charged under the 1,600 military orders that control every aspect of the lives of Palestinians living under the Israeli military occupation. That incarceration rate doubles for Palestinian men — two in every five have been arrested.

By comparison, in the United States, the country notorious for the world’s largest prison population, one in 200 people is imprisoned. The imprisonment rate among Black Americans is more than three times the overall rate — but even then is a tiny fraction of an average Palestinian’s likelihood of spending time in jail.

Palestinian Prisoner rights group Addameer has described the Israeli prison system as a “complex of monstrous machinery in form, laws, procedures, and policies…designed to liquidate and kill”.

Today, the number of Palestinians currently behind Israeli bars is 5,200, including 33 women and 170 children. If tried, Palestinian prisoners are prosecuted in military courts.

Two months after Israel occupied Palestinian and Arab territories in the 1967 war, its government issued Military Order 101 which essentially criminalised civic activities under the basis of “hostile propaganda and prohibition of incitement”.

The order, which is still in use in the occupied West Bank, outlaws the participation and organisation of protests, printing and distributing political material, waving flags and other political symbols, and any activity that demonstrates sympathy for an organisation deemed illegal under military orders.

Three years later, another military order (378) was issued by the Israeli government. This established military courts, and basically outlawed all forms of Palestinian resistance to the Israeli occupation as “terrorism”.

Hundreds of other military orders have been issued and implemented since then to curtail any Palestinian civic and political expression.

There are 19 prisons within Israel and one inside the occupied West Bank that hold Palestinian prisoners.

Under the Fourth Geneva Convention, it is against international law for an occupying power to transfer an occupied people from the occupied territory.

“It is unlawful and cruel and the consequences for the imprisoned person and their loved ones, who are often deprived from seeing them for months, and at times for years on end, can be devastating,” Amnesty International has previously said.

There are 1,264 Palestinian administrative detainees, which means that they are held indefinitely behind bars without facing trial or any charges. This practice, a remnant of the British Mandate era, can be extended indefinitely based on “secret evidence”, meaning that a detainee can spend months if not years in prison without being charged.

While Israel says the procedure allows authorities to hold suspects while continuing to gather evidence, critics and rights groups say the system is widely abused and denies due process.

Since the outbreak of the second Intifada in 2000, more than 12,000 Palestinian children have been detained by Israeli forces.

At least 700 Palestinian children under the age of 18 from the occupied West Bank are prosecuted every year through Israeli military courts after being arrested, interrogated and detained by the Israeli army.

Addameer describes the arrest and imprisonment of children as systemic and part of a collective punishment campaign.

The most common charge is throwing stones, which is punishable by a maximum punishment of 20 years.

The children are often subjected to physical and psychological torture, according to child rights groups. They are interrogated without the presence of a parent or lawyer, and critics have accused Israel of exploiting their detention to turn them into informants and to extort their families financially by forcing them to pay huge fines.

Military Order 1726 states that children can be held in preventative detention for 15 days before an indictment is submitted and that a military court can extend that detention by 10 days each time for a maximum of 40 times.

Military Order 1745 stipulates that interrogation sessions of children should be audiovisually recorded in a language understood by children, but excludes children arrested under security pretexts which refers to all Palestinian child detainees.

Under Military Order 132, Palestinian children aged 16 and older were previously tried and sentenced by Israeli military courts as adults.

Furthermore, Palestinian children continue to be charged according to their age at the time of sentencing, instead of their age at the time of the alleged offence, as provided by international law.

In August 2016, Israel changed its law that stated that children under 14 could not be held criminally responsible. This was done after Israeli authorities waited for Ahmed Manasra, who was 13 years old at the time of his arrest, to turn 14 before charging him with attempted murder and sentencing him to 12 years – which was later commuted down to nine.
No article or any amount of search bias or cherry picking or whatever double downer Hamas apologists do to solve their cognitive dissonance is going to change the fact your label of "gorilla warfare" is both wrong and appalling. Fortunately for Israel the leaders of the free world don't have that problem.
 

CANON_Grow

Well-Known Member
No article or any amount of search bias or cherry picking or whatever double downer Hamas apologists do to solve their cognitive dissonance is going to change the fact your label of "gorilla warfare" is both wrong and appalling. Fortunately for Israel the leaders of the free world don't have that problem.
You do realize that it is not about being a Hamas apologist or supporter, but acknowledging that it is understandable how the situation developed, right? Similar to the BLM protests, most people didn’t support or encourage the unlawful actions of a few, but did understand what lead to that situation.

Attacking innocent civilians is never acceptable, regardless of who is doing it. Pointing out human rights issue's shouldn’t be offensive, unless you support that sort of thing.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
You do realize that it is not about being a Hamas apologist or supporter, but acknowledging that it is understandable how the situation developed, right? Similar to the BLM protests, most people didn’t support or encourage the unlawful actions of a few, but did understand what lead to that situation.

Attacking innocent civilians is never acceptable, regardless of who is doing it. Pointing out human rights issue's shouldn’t be offensive, unless you support that sort of thing.
IMO it is a case of sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind, of winning the war and giving up on winning the peace with the rise of the mostly religious right in Israel, they simply had more kids than secular liberal jews. The grievances of the Palestinians are used by Iran, just like the ones of the right in America are used by Trump, only theirs have much more substance than the imagined ones of the magats.

Israel is running a Warsaw like ghetto in Gaza financed and supported by oil rich middle eastern states and it is orchestrating and supporting the large-scale theft of land they have no right to on the west bank. I condemn terrorism but recognize that there are many different kinds of terrorism, some under the guise of pseudo legal processes and military occupation as we have seen in Ukraine and other places. Technically speaking what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is genocide or close to it and it has been going on in plain sight for a long time. It is a collective punishment based on religion and ethnicity imposed over the actions of a few on an entire nation and against UN law, there is no justice. Would you think it just if your entire community were punished because someone in it broke the law? Israel is a theocracy, not really a liberal democracy, though it plays one on TV, if it were a liberal democracy the Palestinians within its borders would have been citizens, so instead of the rule of majority they went a bit fascist, democracy, but only for Jews, though it might as well have been for Aryans only, same idea.
 
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printer

Well-Known Member
You do realize that it is not about being a Hamas apologist or supporter, but acknowledging that it is understandable how the situation developed, right? Similar to the BLM protests, most people didn’t support or encourage the unlawful actions of a few, but did understand what lead to that situation.

Attacking innocent civilians is never acceptable, regardless of who is doing it. Pointing out human rights issue's shouldn’t be offensive, unless you support that sort of thing.
Pretty much my view. I do not support what Hamas has done. But that does not mean there was not reason for the action. If I were to live in the area I would want to be in the Israel area rather than the Palestinian.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Isn't that because Israel cut em off though? The clean water thing, i mean. ...??
I dunno, I haven't been following the details there or on the conflict, it is on MSNBC 24/7 and they have gone all in on Israel but do provide some context. Like I said, there is too much ambiguity in the situation for me to root too much for one side or the other, though I don't like the current attack and terrorism against civilians. I wonder though, it has the smell of a setup, but that would be absurd, unless it got fucked up. Why was Israeli intelligence blind to this? Why have a big festival right next-door to Gaza where they could easily launch rockets and mortars into the crowd? Why no extra security presence, it seemed rather sparce, given the event and the proximity to trouble. Someone on the Israeli side fucked up in a very big way here and there will be a public inquiry as to how this was allowed to happen.
 

CANON_Grow

Well-Known Member
But yeah pAlEsTiNiAnS aRe MuSlImS wHo ArE aCtUaLlY vIcTiMs Of FaScIsT iSrAeLiS. smh.
And Christian, that face similar contempt...
 

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
Pretty much my view. I do not support what Hamas has done. But that does not mean there was not reason for the action. If I were to live in the area I would want to be in the Israel area rather than the Palestinian.
It's a sad situation. With all the land available around that area why wouldn't Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt make room for the Palestines? 2 million folks crammed in there is crazy. Looks like a refugee camp in there.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
It's a sad situation. With all the land available around that area why wouldn't Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt make room for the Palestines? 2 million folks crammed in there is crazy. Looks like a refugee camp in there.
If you believe that you’re on a scrap of land that belonged to your people since time immemorial, and most of which was taken by rivals not of your people, you’re likely to believe that relocation is capitulation.
 
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