giving defoliation during flower a try

Cannasutraorganics

Cannasutraorganics

Well-Known Member
BROBIE said:
Where are you getting that? Describe the different chelates and their corresponding tastes. I know of one, and that is chlorophyll, but this is a first. Have any links and such? Thanks
Click to expand...
I've grown no less then 250 strains in my life. Smoked way more then that. I do clones. So many people that buy from me buy for years. So I've smoked the same strain grown many different ways with many different combos of nutes. Poisons. Drying conditions. If you smoke tobacco you probably won't ever taste them. If you smoke out of a water pipe you won't taste as much. I sell clones for a living. And I sell to many people for years. They usually bring some finished product. I always ask what they grew with. And I always have my bud from same genetics. I've smoked my clones bud grown by many others in many ways. And I smoke from a pipe that enhances the tastes. Also the last hit of my weed in a bowl isn't any worse then the third hit. No more scratch or bad taste after the third hit till the tenth or last. I've grown with many different nutes and soil mixes. Deep water and rock wool. Coco, soil and soilless soil. Same strain in different mediums and same nutes tastes different. If anybody is near sac and wants to play what's this taste, holler. But you have to be a grower. We will grow the same strain cuttings and compare buds at the end. Hope to do this with ten to twenty people. All do the same strain differently. Report every nute or soil amendment. Then play what's that taste. And how high am I? I'm OCD so testing and finding out who, what ,when ,where, how and why are important to me. Almost imperative. If someone shows me a better way I'm all about testing it and using it if it plays out. I learn new stuff all the time. I'm open to discusion and imperical study. Everything argued on here could be quantified if some got together and tried to honestly test them against each other. I do this all the time on new strains. I've had guys out grow me on occasion.
 
Aeroknow

Aeroknow

Well-Known Member
Cannasutraorganics said:
I've grown no less then 250 strains in my life. Smoked way more then that. I do clones. So many people that buy from me buy for years. So I've smoked the same strain grown many different ways with many different combos of nutes. Poisons. Drying conditions. If you smoke tobacco you probably won't ever taste them. If you smoke out of a water pipe you won't taste as much. I sell clones for a living. And I sell to many people for years. They usually bring some finished product. I always ask what they grew with. And I always have my bud from same genetics. I've smoked my clones bud grown by many others in many ways. And I smoke from a pipe that enhances the tastes. Also the last hit of my weed in a bowl isn't any worse then the third hit. No more scratch or bad taste after the third hit till the tenth or last. I've grown with many different nutes and soil mixes. Deep water and rock wool. Coco, soil and soilless soil. Same strain in different mediums and same nutes tastes different. If anybody is near sac and wants to play what's this taste, holler. But you have to be a grower. We will grow the same strain cuttings and compare buds at the end. Hope to do this with ten to twenty people. All do the same strain differently. Report every nute or soil amendment. Then play what's that taste. And how high am I? I'm OCD so testing and finding out who, what ,when ,where, how and why are important to me. Almost imperative. If someone shows me a better way I'm all about testing it and using it if it plays out. I learn new stuff all the time. I'm open to discusion and imperical study. Everything argued on here could be quantified if some got together and tried to honestly test them against each other. I do this all the time on new strains. I've had guys out grow me on occasion.
Click to expand...
Sounds killer. I'd be down. But I feel we would have to dry the very same cut we would be comparing, in the exact same room. Treat both samples exactly the same from chop time on, if we were to compare the final product. How we gonna do that?
 
Cannasutraorganics

Cannasutraorganics

Well-Known Member
Aeroknow said:
Sounds killer. I'd be down. But I feel we would have to dry the very same cut we would be comparing, in the exact same room. Treat both samples exactly the same from chop time on, if we were to compare the final product. How we gonna do that?
Click to expand...
I figure most can dry and cure good enough. A true test is to smoke at 14 days off plant and then after a month or more of cure to see what can be cured away. Most nute tastes can. Chelates, no. Over or too fast of drying can't be fixed. I have samples of fast drying and over drying to compare against too. I'm kind of lazy and mess up on things often. Lol.
 
ASMALLVOICE

ASMALLVOICE

Well-Known Member
Cannasutraorganics said:
I've grown no less then 250 strains in my life. Smoked way more then that. I do clones. So many people that buy from me buy for years. So I've smoked the same strain grown many different ways with many different combos of nutes. Poisons. Drying conditions. If you smoke tobacco you probably won't ever taste them. If you smoke out of a water pipe you won't taste as much. I sell clones for a living. And I sell to many people for years. They usually bring some finished product. I always ask what they grew with. And I always have my bud from same genetics. I've smoked my clones bud grown by many others in many ways. And I smoke from a pipe that enhances the tastes. Also the last hit of my weed in a bowl isn't any worse then the third hit. No more scratch or bad taste after the third hit till the tenth or last. I've grown with many different nutes and soil mixes. Deep water and rock wool. Coco, soil and soilless soil. Same strain in different mediums and same nutes tastes different. If anybody is near sac and wants to play what's this taste, holler. But you have to be a grower. We will grow the same strain cuttings and compare buds at the end. Hope to do this with ten to twenty people. All do the same strain differently. Report every nute or soil amendment. Then play what's that taste. And how high am I? I'm OCD so testing and finding out who, what ,when ,where, how and why are important to me. Almost imperative. If someone shows me a better way I'm all about testing it and using it if it plays out. I learn new stuff all the time. I'm open to discusion and imperical study. Everything argued on here could be quantified if some got together and tried to honestly test them against each other. I do this all the time on new strains. I've had guys out grow me on occasion.
Click to expand...
Damn, now that would be an awesome challenge.

Peace and Great Grows

Asmallvoice
 
BROBIE

BROBIE

Well-Known Member
Cannasutraorganics said:
I've grown no less then 250 strains in my life. Smoked way more then that. I do clones. So many people that buy from me buy for years. So I've smoked the same strain grown many different ways with many different combos of nutes. Poisons. Drying conditions. If you smoke tobacco you probably won't ever taste them. If you smoke out of a water pipe you won't taste as much. I sell clones for a living. And I sell to many people for years. They usually bring some finished product. I always ask what they grew with. And I always have my bud from same genetics. I've smoked my clones bud grown by many others in many ways. And I smoke from a pipe that enhances the tastes. Also the last hit of my weed in a bowl isn't any worse then the third hit. No more scratch or bad taste after the third hit till the tenth or last. I've grown with many different nutes and soil mixes. Deep water and rock wool. Coco, soil and soilless soil. Same strain in different mediums and same nutes tastes different. If anybody is near sac and wants to play what's this taste, holler. But you have to be a grower. We will grow the same strain cuttings and compare buds at the end. Hope to do this with ten to twenty people. All do the same strain differently. Report every nute or soil amendment. Then play what's that taste. And how high am I? I'm OCD so testing and finding out who, what ,when ,where, how and why are important to me. Almost imperative. If someone shows me a better way I'm all about testing it and using it if it plays out. I learn new stuff all the time. I'm open to discusion and imperical study. Everything argued on here could be quantified if some got together and tried to honestly test them against each other. I do this all the time on new strains. I've had guys out grow me on occasion.
Click to expand...
Wow. I was hoping for more like: "The astringency brought out by the chelated zinc is eye-opening but pleasant" or "The legs created by the chelated manganese when swirling my water pipe is indeed noteworthy and gives further confirmation of the high THC in this magnificent strain" or "The nose of chelated copper finalizes the excellent balance in this higher CBD strain" or "With iron EDTA, the pungency is almost overwhelming, regardless of the varietal"
 
Last edited:
Cannasutraorganics

Cannasutraorganics

Well-Known Member
BROBIE said:
Wow. I was hoping for more like: "The astringency brought out by the chelated zinc is eye-opening but pleasant" or "The legs created by the chelated manganese when swirling my water pipe is indeed noteworthy and gives further confirmation of the high THC in this magnificent strain" or "The nose of chelated copper finalizes the excellent balance in this higher CBD strain" or "With iron EDTA, the pungency is almost overwhelming, regardless of the varietal"
Click to expand...
Lmfao. It's bad and bitter tastes. Some are a tang. Non affect the high or length of high. Wish I could say they did. Most heavy chelated nutes are used by growers that pull at mostly clear trics. My observations. So the legs are shorter on them already so that's not apples and apples. Now to compare equal amount of trics and level of Amber, then they are very close but not In tastes or smoothness. Most bud hardeners leave a blah to the taste of finished product. And some seemed to have a artificial sweetener back flavor. Haven't tried anything good from terpinator but they also used crap before adding it, so no real idea yet. My pipe is different then what yOu smoke out of. But once I show you in my pipe you will smoke out of other pipes and taste it from then on. Never said chelates make less effective weed. Just bad flavors and not as smooth. Also tend to limit yield to their design. I've had higher yields with more trics with organics. And vegan. And no I'm not vegan myself. But plants are....
 
chuck estevez

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
Cannasutraorganics said:
Lmfao. It's bad and bitter tastes. Some are a tang. Non affect the high or length of high. Wish I could say they did. Most heavy chelated nutes are used by growers that pull at mostly clear trics. My observations. So the legs are shorter on them already so that's not apples and apples. Now to compare equal amount of trics and level of Amber, then they are very close but not In tastes or smoothness. Most bud hardeners leave a blah to the taste of finished product. And some seemed to have a artificial sweetener back flavor. Haven't tried anything good from terpinator but they also used crap before adding it, so no real idea yet. My pipe is different then what yOu smoke out of. But once I show you in my pipe you will smoke out of other pipes and taste it from then on. Never said chelates make less effective weed. Just bad flavors and not as smooth. Also tend to limit yield to their design. I've had higher yields with more trics with organics. And vegan. And no I'm not vegan myself. But plants are....
Click to expand...
do you use molasses?
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
chuck estevez said:
I am no expert on this subject,
Click to expand...
Me neither. I do know chelating prevents phosphor from fucking up the metals into an unusable form, it keeps elements apart after uptake as well allowing for better mobility of the elements.

I remember a while ago, in a thread that was too good, contained too many facts, so was deleted, we discussed organic vs synth nutrients uptake and someone brought up something negative about the commonly used EDTA chelate and I found a doc that explained H&G uses the newer and better chelate EDDHA. Not sure if that's in anyway taste related.

It's easy to find research on how chelates affect taste in fruits and vegetables.... it's improved because it facilitates optimal nutrient uptake.

DynagroW Bud blaster ( :rolleyes: ) contains Citric Acid monohydrate and NPK 2-15-4. Citric acid monohydrate is also used as a chelating agent... improved iron (and Mn, Mg, Zn) uptake that could otherwise be possibly fucked up by that high P. H&G Top Booster is basically a PK booster with iron (EDDHA-Fe) added based on similar logic (high P additionally antagonizes iron uptake) .

I think the suggestion that AN happens to use the better chelates than others is just as silly as the "better salts" argument. It's more related to the old organic vs synth taste discussion.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iron can be applied as ferrous sulfate or in a chelated form.

Ferrous sulfate (FeSO4) contains about 20% iron. This fertilizer is inexpensive and is mainly used for foliar spraying. Applied to soil, it is often ineffective, especially in pH above 7.0, because its iron quickly transforms to Fe3+ and precipitates as one of the iron oxides.

Iron chelates. Chelates are compounds that stabilize metal ions (in this case - iron) and protect them from oxidation and precipitation. Iron chelates consist of three components:
  • Fe3+ ions
  • A complex, such as EDTA, DTPA, EDDHA, amino acids, humic-fulvic acids, citrate.
  • Sodium (Na+) or ammonium (NH4+) ions
Different chelates hold iron ions in different strengths at different pH levels. They also defer in their susceptibility to iron replacement by competitive ions. For example, at high concentrations, calcium or magnesium ions may replace the chelated metal ion.

Fe-EDTA - This iron chelate is stable at pH below 6.0. Above pH of 6.5, nearly 50% of the iron is unavailable. Therefore this chelate is ineffective in alkaline soils. This chelate also has high affinity to calcium, so it is advised not to use it in calcium-rich soils or water.

Note that EDTA is a very stable chelate of micro-elements, other than iron, even in high pH levels.

Fe-DTPA - this iron chelate is stable in pH levels of up to 7.0, and is not as susceptible to iron replacement by calcium.

Fe-EDDHA - this chelate is stable at pH levels as high as 11.0, but it is also the most expensive iron chelate available.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Cannasutraorganics

Cannasutraorganics

Well-Known Member
chuck estevez said:
do you use molasses?
Click to expand...
Corn sweet water when I can get it. Molasses is more for keeping the flora in the soil going. Micros love it. As it breaks down the plant uses its carbs. But the best is half the weight is minerals. So yes I use it sparingly through veg and bloom. The corn sweet water has a little extra in it. Care to guess?
 
Cannasutraorganics

Cannasutraorganics

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
Me neither. I do know chelating prevents phosphor from fucking up the metals into an unusable form, it keeps elements apart after uptake as well allowing for better mobility of the elements.

I remember a while ago, in a thread that was too good, contained too many facts, so was deleted, we discussed organic vs synth nutrients uptake and someone brought up something negative about the commonly used EDTA chelate and I found a doc that explained H&G uses the newer and better chelate EDDHA. Not sure if that's in anyway taste related.

It's easy to find research on how chelates affect taste in fruits and vegetables.... it's improved because it facilitates optimal nutrient uptake.

DynagroW Bud blaster ( :rolleyes: ) contains Citric Acid monohydrate and NPK 2-15-4. Citric acid monohydrate is also used as a chelating agent... improved iron (and Mn, Mg, Zn) uptake that could otherwise be possibly fucked up by that high P. H&G Top Booster is basically a PK booster with iron (EDDHA-Fe) added based on similar logic (high P additionally antagonizes iron uptake) .

I think the suggestion that AN happens to use the better chelates than others is just as silly as the "better salts" argument. It's more related to the old organic vs synth taste discussion.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iron can be applied as ferrous sulfate or in a chelated form.

Ferrous sulfate (FeSO4) contains about 20% iron. This fertilizer is inexpensive and is mainly used for foliar spraying. Applied to soil, it is often ineffective, especially in pH above 7.0, because its iron quickly transforms to Fe3+ and precipitates as one of the iron oxides.

Iron chelates. Chelates are compounds that stabilize metal ions (in this case - iron) and protect them from oxidation and precipitation. Iron chelates consist of three components:
  • Fe3+ ions
  • A complex, such as EDTA, DTPA, EDDHA, amino acids, humic-fulvic acids, citrate.
  • Sodium (Na+) or ammonium (NH4+) ions
Different chelates hold iron ions in different strengths at different pH levels. They also defer in their susceptibility to iron replacement by competitive ions. For example, at high concentrations, calcium or magnesium ions may replace the chelated metal ion.

Fe-EDTA - This iron chelate is stable at pH below 6.0. Above pH of 6.5, nearly 50% of the iron is unavailable. Therefore this chelate is ineffective in alkaline soils. This chelate also has high affinity to calcium, so it is advised not to use it in calcium-rich soils or water.

Note that EDTA is a very stable chelate of micro-elements, other than iron, even in high pH levels.

Fe-DTPA - this iron chelate is stable in pH levels of up to 7.0, and is not as susceptible to iron replacement by calcium.

Fe-EDDHA - this chelate is stable at pH levels as high as 11.0, but it is also the most expensive iron chelate available.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...
Iron is a hard one without chelates. In organics the soil helps buffer and alters the ph in different area to help with nute and mineral uptake. But it's not necessary to have chelates in soil for iron intake. In other then soil, yes, you need chelated nutes to some degree for any decent bud. That's why I don't grow other then soil any more. And yes deep water can out produce soil. And when I say soil I mean soilless soil. I won't grow straight into the ground.
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Cannasutraorganics said:
In organics the soil helps buffer and alters the ph in different area to help with nute and mineral uptake.
Click to expand...
In organic soil grows there are naturally occurring chelating agents created by the plant and microbes (Hydroxamate Siderophores, Organic Acids and Amino Acids) and while I said I'm no expert on chelates you certainly aren't either and I'm well aware of dwc vs soil.

Cannasutraorganics said:
But it's not necessary to have chelates in soil for iron intake.
Click to expand...
As if iron chelates were invented for hydro only... obviously not the case. And instead of me posting a dozen quotes from reliable sources of info I suggest you do the research and back up your statements in regards to the supposed relation between taste and chelates. So far it seems like you just made that up.

Ok one: "In fact, one third of the world’s cultivated soils are calcareous and considered Fe deficient"

It's not just the pH level that matters (which in hydro should be lower and is easier controlled actually making the pH level less of an issue than in soil) but the rest of elements such as high P and Ca.

So you don't grow other than in soil anymore but you grow in soilless (with AN? or what nutes that don't have chelates?)... because in "organics...." o_O
 
AlphaPhase

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
Well now, that's alot of pages to this thread :p what was the result from the defoliation in flower? Just curious, been reading lately Bout sinks and sources and have a couple plants that grow too many leaves the size of my head at 1/4-1/2" apart for the nodes. I clipped them off (the ones blocking multiple tops and "sweating" pretty bad. Just curious because of the results here since I've never defoliated. I guess what I did was selected pruning, but alot of it. Hoping it doesn't hurt the plant
 
AlphaPhase

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
Damn, that sucks I was hoping to see some sort of result. I've never defoliated, but I know a few old school growers KILLING it with that method. I heard about it 15 years ago but was too scared to do it to my plants. I'm guessing it's pretty strain dependant though, and striping a whole plant at once would probably be bad (I assume but no idea). I just wouldn't do it personally if I didn't have to, but this new strain I have is growing retarded and it will get pm if I leave it be. I guess I'll find out soon if it was affected in a bad way, but my logic is I'd rather have a little bit of good bud from the plant than none due to mold, if the leaf plucking does turn out to be bad for the plant.

Too funny about the trolls, lmao, I hear ya on that. Defoliation is a touchy subject but should be discussed without babies fighting the "I'm right you're wrong game." there's alot of good books about defoliation, it's used alot for certain crops. Something about when a leaf becomes full size it is a sink (meaning using more sugars than its making) but they can go back and forth from source to sink as well. No one to my knowledge has done scientific studies on mj defoliation though, just some random dumb argumentive threads here and there that get shut down lol. I assume pruning certain leaves is beneficial, but I don't know what or how is the right way, I kinda winged it with my plant. The thick plant is the before pic and the other pic the two plants in the front are the same plants after my plucking
 

Attachments

stankyyank

stankyyank

Active Member
I believe it is the other way around, being a sink in early growth and a source when it is large enough to produce more energy than it is using. upload_2014-12-9_0-48-19.png
Regardless, I agree that some crop varieties do well with pruning, such as grape vines intended for wine. It's also true that cannabis is largely unknown to us as how and why it is what it is, with very few public studies in comparison to many other crops.
Raphael Mechoulam of Hebrew University has done some studies and is considered the forefather of marijuana research, and there are others, but the science that we seek to improve productivity and quality isn't there.
Hard to tell from your pix of before and after, but what's the time between photos? Are you in flower now, in the stretch? If you haven't flowered this strain out before, are you sure if you'd get pm, or do you think it'd stretched out enough to breathe a bit better?
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
stankyyank said:
I believe it is the other way around, being a sink in early growth and a source when it is large enough to produce more energy than it is using. View attachment 3310079
Regardless, I agree that some crop varieties do well with pruning, such as grape vines intended for wine.
Click to expand...
Good points.

Back to wine. "Leafing" practiced by many vineyard managers is ONLY done before veraison and around the fruiting zone to improve wine quality (not plant quality) by reducing a chemical (pyrazines) in the grape that imparts herbaceousness aka a vegetal charaacteristic.
 
stankyyank

stankyyank

Active Member
Here's an excerpt from an article on pruning indeterminate tomato vines, preventing the plant from getting ahead of itself.

A tomato is a solar-powered sugar factory. For the first month or so, all of the sugar it produces is directed towards new leaf growth. During this stage, tomato plants grow very rapidly, doubling their size every 12 to 15 days. Eventually, the plants make more sugar than the single growing tip can use, which signals the plant to make new branches and to flower. This usually happens after 10 to 13 leaves have expanded, at which time the plant is 12 to 18 inches tall. In the next few weeks, the entire character of the tomato plant changes. If unsupported, the increasing weight of filling fruit and multiple side branches forces the plant to lie on the ground. Once the main stem is horizontal, there is an increased tendency to branch. Left to its own devices, a vigorous indeterminate tomato plant can easily cover a 4- by 4-foot area with as many as 10 stems, each 3 to 5 feet long. By season's end, it will be an unsightly, impenetrable, disease-wracked tangle.

http://www.finegardening.com/pruning-tomatoes
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Let's stay on topic please. We tried many times to have a normal discussion about that touchy subject defoliation. It only leads to mass butthurt and locked/deleted threads.
 
stankyyank

stankyyank

Active Member
Study on grapes done in the 90's and different methods of pruning: http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/crops/az1051/az105118.html. Interestingly enough, the results varied based on a number of factors, including cultivar. Also, this practice is done not only for the crop itself, but the health of the vine for the following years to come. That being said, this method should not be blindly used on an annual plant. It's the science behind the pruning that I find interesting, and is what we ought to be discussing before delving into defol, at least in an attempt to keep the conversation productive.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top