Getting fresh water to center mass

So the idea of airstones, waterfalls, etc is to get DO into the water. Though the problem lays with getting positive DO water to the center of the root mass where roots block circulation, 0ppm DO water in the center of your mass leads to bacteria problems, etc. The agitation of surface is enough to get DO into the water, we just use airstones or waterfall to get more to reach the center. My idea for a RDWC was to have the “IN” line run from the wall up into the center to push water right up the center of the root mass. The picture shows the idea. Thoughts? The idea is to lose both airstones and waterfalls since neither is needed to actually get DO into the water. With this, the problem of getting fresh water into the center is illininated once the plants root system grows. By default, DO will enter the water as long as its moving, the is evident when we look at algae filled ponds vs no algae in rivers.

so if the desire is to get DO to all the roots, the actuall ppm of DO being irrelevant, this will solve the problem. Waterfall = noise, air-stones = nuisance.

how do you plan to keep roots out?

and if the mass is dense enough, now your outer roots lack DO.

@rkymtnman The water coming out would be high enough pressure to prevent any roots from making there way into there.

My idea here is also that the water shooting up the center will no doubt prevent the root system from forming a solid mass in the center, the constant push of water up the center will make the root system fan out. Thoughts? I dont see why this wouldnt solve all problems and get rid of both stones and waterfalls.

KoolaidMan said:

The water coming out would be high enough pressure to prevent any roots from making there way into there and “sticking”.

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that makes sense but will you lessen the flow when the plant is young? if not, i'd worry about water coming up out of the netpot and/or damaging young roots with too much force.

i'd be interested to see you try it and see how it works. start a journal.

@rkymtnman To address your concern about getting water to the outside of the root mass...you could “T” the top to direct water both up and sideways.

This achieves nothing. You act like a root mass is an impenetrable force or something. The entirety of the volume of water is being enriched with o2 and it's all being moved through the system, back to the res. Its not like the root ball "holds" a pocket of water which it then sucks all the resources out of and is left with nothing. 2 years of a simple 1/2" elbow outlet into each bucket has been more than enough to keep every run as happy and healthy as can be.

Airwalker16 said:

This achieves nothing. You act like a root mass is an impenetrable force or something. The entirety of the volume of water is being enriched with o2 and it's all being moved through the system, back to the res. Its not like the root ball "holds" a pocket of water which it then sucks all the resources out of and is left with nothing. 2 years of a simple 1/2" elbow outlet into each bucket has been more than enough to keep every run as happy and healthy as can be.

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Cool then you should stick with that.

For everyone else, the goal is to get fresh water circulated through all the roots, which this idea solves. Root masses do infact restrict circulation, this is why many people have root rot in the center of there root mass. Circulating the site with fresh water will not penetrate the root mass effectively if there is no current to take the fresh water there. This can be observed by looking at a pond with a fountain...near the center the water is circulating and agitating due to the fountain but on the outside perimeter of the pond, it is stagnant.

KoolaidMan said:

Cool then you should stick with that.

For everyone else, the goal is to get fresh water circulated through all the roots, which this idea solves. Root masses do infact restrict circulation, this is why many people have root rot in the center of there root mass. Circulating the site with fresh water will not penetrate the root mass effectively if there is no current to take the fresh water there. This can be observed by looking at a pond with a fountain...near the center the water is circulating and agitating due to the fountain but on the outside perimeter of the pond, it is stagnant.

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Think about it brother. As the waterfall fills the bucket, the 2" piping allows all the water in that bucket to come out and back to the res. Imagine a huge rootball in a bucket filled with water. If you poked a 2" hole in the bottom where a bulkhead would be, the water level would stay perfectly level and drain right around the rootball. This is what's happening in the system. Just trying to save you from a bunch of unnecessary work.

What you have just described is a current you have created. You have water enter from the side on the top and exit from the side on the bottom, thus a rip current you made. If you think that the level of fresh water is equally moving throughout your entire res then you dont know how fluid dynamics work. Your root mass is getting little to no circulation because nothing is pushing fresh liquid throughout it. The exchange of fresh water to non-fresh water does not work the same way that a gas would disperse throughout a vessel. Water requires force to move it.

KoolaidMan said:

What you have just described is a current you have created. You have water enter from the side on the top and exit from the side on the bottom, thus a rip current you made. If you think that the level of fresh water is equally moving throughout your entire res then you dont know how fluid dynamics work. Your root mass is getting little to no circulation because nothing is pushing fresh liquid throughout it. The exchange of fresh water to non-fresh water does not work the same way that a gas would disperse throughout a vessel. Water requires force to move it.

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But the PUMP IS PULLING from the bottom of each bucket. That's your force right there. There's no convincing you. That's alright though, you can do whatever you'd like.

Airwalker16 said:

But the PUMP IS PULLING from the bottom of each bucket. That's your force right there. There's no convincing you. That's alright though, you can do whatever you'd like.

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Nothing in your setup is driving water into the center of the root mass, which is what this thread is about.

KoolaidMan said:

Nothing in your setup is driving water into the center of the root mass, which is what this thread is about.

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I believe the entirety of the water in each bucket is exchanged as its filled from the top from each waterfall.

Airwalker16 said:

I believe the entirety of the water in each bucket is exchanged as its filled from the top from each waterfall.

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Then you would be wrong man, please do some research. Google “fluid dynamics” and read a bit. You have to have force to move water once a vessel is filled, it doesnt move like a gas or cold/hot filling voids of less pressure. Water in a vessel is all equal pressure and requires force to move it. All your setup is doing is creating a current from point A to B (entry to exit). The entire water volume is not being exchanged because it is physically impossible in your setup, regardless what you believe.

I googled it, so basicly you are saying that the rootball is water tight not allowing any water exchange in the center, in the RDWC system?? Sounds silly but maybe better suited for something that’s not already constantly exchanging the fluid around/threw the root mass already. Have you had DO related root issues in your system in the past? I don’t know, maybe I’m missing something. That’s gotta be one fucking tight root ball or something. I mean the simple way if it was a concern, just put a 6” plate under the root ball, but if water can’t get threw neither will air i guess.

KoolaidMan said:

Then you would be wrong man, please do some research. Google “fluid dynamics” and read a bit. You have to have force to move water once a vessel is filled, it doesnt move like a gas or cold/hot filling voids of less pressure. Water in a vessel is all equal pressure and requires force to move it. All your setup is doing is creating a current from point A to B (entry to exit). The entire water volume is not being exchanged because it is physically impossible in your setup, regardless what you believe.

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Well it's been more than enough to give the girls everything they need for years now so I'm not trippin.

J232 said:

I googled it, so basicly you are saying that the rootball is water tight not allowing any water exchange in the center, in the RDWC system?? Sounds silly but maybe better suited for something that’s not already constantly exchanging the fluid around/threw the root mass already. Have you had DO related root issues in your system in the past? I don’t know, maybe I’m missing something. That’s gotta be one fucking tight root ball or something. I mean the simple way if it was a concern, just put a 6” plate under the root ball, but if water can’t get threw neither will air i guess.

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6" plate?

Airwalker16 said:

6" plate?

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Air stone plate, if it was a concern.

KoolaidMan said:

Then you would be wrong man, please do some research. Google “fluid dynamics” and read a bit. You have to have force to move water once a vessel is filled, it doesnt move like a gas or cold/hot filling voids of less pressure. Water in a vessel is all equal pressure and requires force to move it. All your setup is doing is creating a current from point A to B (entry to exit). The entire water volume is not being exchanged because it is physically impossible in your setup, regardless what you believe.

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@fragileassassin @Axion42 @5BY5LEC @Rocket Soul @ttystikk

J232 said:

Air stone plate, if it was a concern.

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Aaahh I see.

Airwalker16 said:

Aaahh I see.

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This root mass has all the flow it needs, I’m a hydro noob but I just can’t see the benefit, there’s no air stones, I added one back for few days, no difference, out again. RIP 6” basket..