FF vs Botanicare vs Humboldt

Tamerlane

Active Member
I currently use the entire fox farm line and follow the feeding schedule for soil grows. I seem to get really good results (havent tried anything else so nothing to compare it to). One thing I do not like about Fox Farm is that I have to use half my dosage of Grow Big in order not to burn my plants (I use RO water with very low base ppm).

Im curious about these other nute companies. I hear great things about both humboldt and Botanicare. which brand of nutes do yall prefer and why? Which line from Botanicare and Humboldt is the best (not familiar with these companies and each brand offers different basic fertilizer lines). How do they compare to FF?

Please advise
Thanks
T
 

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
I use botanicare in the dirt. Pure Blend pro grow and bloom along with liquid karma. I also throw in Sweet when I'm not feeding with the PureBlend formulas. Both plants below are the results.

In regards to Humboldt, I called them and asked them a few questions about a product of theirs and they literally told me to 'google it'. That is unacceptable and for that I will tell you to steer clear of a company who doesn't know their own products.



 

Tamerlane

Active Member
which soil do you use? Also why do you use Pure Blend Pro Bloom instead of Pure Blend Pro Soil if you are growing in Soil? I was looking at their feeding schedule and was wondering why they dont recommend using Bloom formula for the soil grows: http://botanicare.net/node/635

How come you dont use the entire line (especially hydroplex)?

Do you give your plants full recommended dosages or do you use a lower amount than what is recommended?

What made you choose pure blend pro as opposed to the CNS17, and Power Series?

T
 

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
I use the 1-4-5 for bloom and 3-1.5-4 for veg.

Their feeding schedule is strong so I use a TDS meter and feed at about 550 ppm which is about 5-7mls of bloom formula or 5mls of grow.

I use promix which is a soil-less medium, no food in there.
 

Tamerlane

Active Member
do they grow faster or something? Reason I ask is that there is stuff in soil that affects plants in a great ways (stems are always stocky and barky also soil has tons of tiny stuff in there that hydro costs extra to replicate etc)... and what makes giving this up worth it? If botanicare is organic then it should be hard to overfeed even in soil.... no?

dont mean to be pushy im just trying to learn and improve for my next grow
T
 

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
do they grow faster or something?
If you mix guanos, meals and casting in your soil, how do you know what your plant needs when it goes deficient or has problems? I feed with mineral-derived nutrients that are readily available to the plant at all times so based on what I'm feeding it, I know how to fix an issue should one arise. Do they grow faster? I get better yields than when I made my own soil mixes. I use promix and add vermiculite. I feed, feed flush and over 10 years of soil growing, this is what I've settled into.
 

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
BOOM! ty sir...
how come you dont use the full line especially Hydroplex (which is their bud enlarging supplement)?

T
I own hydroplex and used it for a while, I just got tired of 1ml of this and 5mls of that and 3 mls of the other thing. I think hydroplex is a good additive but I'm lazy and will probably use up the rest of my bottles in my hydro tables. Karma is a good product and I use that with every watering.
 

Tamerlane

Active Member
Why do you feel the need to dilute the dosage if its organic? I thought the whole point of organic is that its very very difficult to overfeed.
 

Snow Crash

Well-Known Member
I grow in Coco. I used to do FFOF with the FF line and didn't really think the results were that spectacular. I saw some good Coco grows, and the guy at the store got me on Canna Nutrients with Botanicare Cal-Mag.

I was BLOWN AWAY by how much more vigorous my plants were in the coco, especially during vegetative growth. I'm still dialing in flowering and have tried a few different brands. I've gotten off of the Botanicare line, even the Cal-Mag, because they use chelation agents that damage the benefical microbes in the root zone. They have an organic line I tried, Organicare, but I found myself adding quite a bit of their solutions to my reservoir and it cost me a little more than I'd wanted.

I'm finishing up a grow on the Organicare system right now with Canna Coco A+B and General Hydroponics Liquid KoolBloom. Things are going well, but the ppm's are pretty high in the media. I think it's a potassium build up, but I just keep flushing and feeding plain water and things are going well enough.

Currently I'm just now started a grow on my new nutrient system. I amend Canna Coco with crushed oyster shell for calcium/micro and Humboldt nutrients Myco Maximum.
My nutrients include:
Canna Coco A+B
Canna Rhizotonic
Canna PK 13/14 (bloom only)
Humboldt Nutrients Sea Mag
Humboldt Nutrients FlavorFul
Humboldt Nutrients MayanMicrozym
Humboldt Honey ES
DynaGro Pro-Tekt Potassium Silicate (my pH up and silicon supplement all in one)
Advanced Nutrients Nirvana
Advanced Nutrients Big Bud (dry)

I can't speak much about Humboldt Nutes right now because I've just cracked the bottles. I have been using their Honey ES and Deuce-Deuce in the past and they seemed good enough so I did a little more homework and I like what I see there. Seems like these guys are one of very few companies building their systems specifically for Cannabis. Most other companies, like Botanicare, need to be modified in one way or another to be better for Cannabis. Specifically, the Cal-Mag Plus locks a person in to a 3:1 calcium to magnesium ratio for the entire grow. Generally, during bloom, much more magnesium is required to balance the uptake with high potassium bloom supplements. This is something I don't think Botanicare has caught on to yet.

So I use Humboldt Nutrients supplements and Advanced Nutrients Bloom supplements because they are specifically designed for the plant I'm growing. I like Canna Coco as my Macro-nutrient base because the results really are spectacular.

I think you need to really develop your own system, something that makes sense to you. I'm up to two shelves of stuff at this point, lots of half empties.
IMG_2352.jpg
 

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
Why do you feel the need to dilute the dosage if its organic? I thought the whole point of organic is that its very very difficult to overfeed.
Botanicare isn't organic, or at least the pure blend isn't. It has some sea kelp and some other nutrients derived from plants and animals I think but it doesn't fit the bill as organic. So you need to watch how much you feed. Also realize that cannabis doesn't have special needs over any other plant. The basics of plant nutrition still apply so don't get tricked into buying 'cannabis specific' nutrients only to own 15 bottles that your plants don't even need. Keep it simple, keep it balanced.
 

Snow Crash

Well-Known Member
That's right.

Orchids and Roses and Artichokes (all flowers) all use exactly the same nutrients as carrots, lettuce, and swiss chard.

I'm sorry... I don't buy that for a second. Just from one Cannabis strain to another the nutrient needs can vary quite a bit, much less outside of the species. With any system you're going to need to dial it in right, but understanding the micro-nutrient requirements and shifting nutrient needs for growing flowers, not vegetables, is important.

Non-Cannabis specific systems can be made to be great for Cannabis, but if all plants needed exactly the same amount of nutrients then every nutrient line would look similar.

You also have to identify your specific media requirements, Coco is a tricky girl and needs different values of nutrients than soil or hydro due to the high CEC.

Still... I haven't tried these nutrients out yet, been using other stuff before this, so we'll see if Cannabis specific nutrients compare to non... But from what I see around, Advanced Nutrients Bloom products are pretty awesome in the right system. I was resistant to them at first, because the counter culture would have you believe they are all hype, but the proof is in the pudding and AN stays in peoples gardens for good reason.
 

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
That's right.

Orchids and Roses and Artichokes (all flowers) all use exactly the same nutrients as carrots, lettuce, and swiss chard.
Correct. There are 16-17 essentials and fruiting/flowering plants use them all. Do you feed them at the same levels? No.

I'm sorry... I don't buy that for a second. Just from one Cannabis strain to another the nutrient needs can vary quite a bit, much less outside of the species. With any system you're going to need to dial it in right, but understanding the micro-nutrient requirements and shifting nutrient needs for growing flowers, not vegetables, is important.
This is plant bio, not a sales pitch. Some strains/plants feed more than others, but they still consume the same mineral salts.

Non-Cannabis specific systems can be made to be great for Cannabis, but if all plants needed exactly the same amount of nutrients then every nutrient line would look similar.
Please enlighten us then.


Still... I haven't tried these nutrients out yet, been using other stuff before this, so we'll see if Cannabis specific nutrients compare to non... But from what I see around, Advanced Nutrients Bloom products are pretty awesome in the right system. I was resistant to them at first, because the counter culture would have you believe they are all hype, but the proof is in the pudding and AN stays in peoples gardens for good reason.
Use them or don't use them, you'd be better off taking a plant bio class instead of getting your information from ads.
 

Snow Crash

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I'm like 50% caffeine'd and 50% skunk'd right now.

I meant to say: Nutrient Ratios. Each of these plants uses a different ratio of Nutrients to one another. Given the number of Macro and micro nutrients, the possibility of variation in these ratios is near infinite. N to P to K. Ca to Mg to Su to Fe to Si to Cl. And all the others.

Add in the impact of amino-acids and carbohydrates... Each plant needs to be dialed in with the right ratio of nutrients. I should have said that before and saved you the time.

I find that Cannabis specific nutrients are designed with ratio's that are ideal for flowering plants. I chose my macro-nutrient system because of my media requirements, but I selected my micro-supplement and bloom system to be designed for Cannabis. I don't think it's 100% hype, but I also don't think it's 100% true. I'm taking a middle road approach and trying something, that at least in theory, would work better out of the bottle than a more generic system.

I also try to get my information from several sources. Hydro Stores, Grower Reviews, Forum Experiences, and yes, the company descriptions. I try to find a reasonable explanation and from what I can discern, Advanced Nutrients isn't bad stuff.
 

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
You can't provide any one element in excess without locking out other competing elements. For instance, too much calcium locks out magnesium, and the other way around is true. That is why plant nutrition is about balance and you recognize the importance of good ratios for stages of growth. Plants will pull up what they need so when you're providing elements in good quantities and ratios without running into issues of excesses, that's when you've got happy plants. This is a little deeper of a topic than FF vs Botanicare vs the other brand as none of these companies provides everything that a plant needs. But they do provide enough to grow good plants are are reasonably priced as long as you feed according to a TDS meter. It's when people suggest using 10 different 'cannabis specific' products that have a premium price that I have an issue with. These companies tell us what we want to hear in hopes of suckering the next crop of newbs into spending $$$ on nutes that could be had at a fraction of the cost. You may wish that it's more than just hype, but I think if you're honest with yourself, your plants and your results, you'll see it's all smoke and mirrors.
 

Snow Crash

Well-Known Member
You can't provide any one element in excess without locking out other competing elements. For instance, too much calcium locks out magnesium, and the other way around is true. That is why plant nutrition is about balance and you recognize the importance of good ratios for stages of growth. Plants will pull up what they need so when you're providing elements in good quantities and ratios without running into issues of excesses, that's when you've got happy plants.
Up to this point we are in complete agreement.

This is a little deeper of a topic than FF vs Botanicare vs the other brand as none of these companies provides everything that a plant needs. But they do provide enough to grow good plants are are reasonably priced as long as you feed according to a TDS meter. It's when people suggest using 10 different 'cannabis specific' products that have a premium price that I have an issue with. These companies tell us what we want to hear in hopes of suckering the next crop of newbs into spending $$$ on nutes that could be had at a fraction of the cost. You may wish that it's more than just hype, but I think if you're honest with yourself, your plants and your results, you'll see it's all smoke and mirrors.
I am honest with myself, and I do my homework. I don't like being subversively accused that I'm randomly selecting nutrients based on advertising and my whims.
I have a justification for everything I use and will provide it to you:
Canna Coco:
Extremely high quality coco that is clean and pre-charged for electrical balance.
Crushed Oyster Shell:
Primary source of Calcium to the plant which will be broken down over time. Other micro-nutrients in extremely low percentages exist to support health, but without the pH buffering provided by Lime, or the sulfates in other amendments.
Humboldt Nutrients Myco Maximum:
Bunch of beneficial organisms, mostly fungi, used to assist the root system in nutrient uptake. Also contains some humic acids and food for the microbes.
Canna Coco A+B:
Two part macro system designed by PhDs specifically for Cocos high CEC and Nutrient Buffer.
Canna Rhizotonic:
Proven root enhancer and rhizosphere supporter.
Canna PK 13/14 (bloom only):
PK boost for transitional phase from flower set to swelling for increased vigor and to maximize potential. After 7 or so harvests with the stuff I've got it dialed just right.
Humboldt Nutrients Sea Mag:
Organically chelated Magnesium supplement with seaweed extracts, amino acids, that stuff. It was inexpensive, at <$20 a quart and never needing more than 2ml a gallon.
Humboldt Nutrients FlavorFul:
Fulvic acid for microbial support in the root zone and to assist with chelation and organic molecular uptake of elements. Humic acid chains work well in soil but I find fulvic acid to work better in hydro systems like coco.
Humboldt Nutrients MayanMicrozym:
Microbial support system containing enzymes and beneficial bacteria that consume dead/unhealthy root mass and promote the immune system.
Humboldt Honey ES:
Basically it's just molasses. I bought a quart of the stuff almost a year ago and haven't used half the bottle yet. Again, extremely inexpensive, but probably more than blackstrap.
DynaGro Pro-Tekt:
Potassium Silicate that will support healthy cell growth and results in thicker, stronger, stems. Also acts as a pH up agent so I don't have to introduce any more bicarbonates to the system.
Advanced Nutrients Nirvana:
This is arguable because basically it's just an organic tea that anyone could make at home. In the future I plan to brew my own but figured the $20 bottle would be cheaper then setting all that up for the time being.
Advanced Nutrients Big Bud (dry):
Specifically balanced pk system with magnesium and beneficial amino-acids. Similar to other bloom systems except they don't use EDTA as a chelation agent. The dry stuff is $10 less than the liquid and lasts twice as long.

My idea is this:
Create an organically charged media. Supply a balanced 2 part macro system designed for the media. Supplement the root system with organics. Supplement the plant with the variety of micro-nutrients not contained in the proper levels in my Macro system. Supplement the macro system with proven bloom enhancers that are balanced for flowering plants and designed with the competition of Magnesium, Calcium, and Potassium in mind.

I run my ppm's under 1000 on my Hanna, keep my pH totally balanced at 5.8, and have access to very high quality tap water (7.3 pH and 60ppm).

There is a place for everything in my garden, and when you understand the role of silicon vs fulvics vs magnesium vs bloom supplements it all becomes pretty clear.

Do I think it can be grown on less? Sure. I'm growing for my own use though, growing purely for quality and as a great hobby. If I were going commercial, and using gallons of nutrients, I'd probably go with the inexpensive "General" nutrient systems. Since I'm doing 33 sqft of garden (10 meters square) I can afford to experiment a little bit. Like I am right now with my liquid KoolBloom in my non-organic hydro grow. I heard good things about the KoolBloom from forum members so I figured I'd give it a go. No advertising hype. Just curiosity.

I guess not being a broke ass college student trying to grow bud for as little as possible, or commercially where a budget is important, allows me to figure out for myself if it is hype or not. Don't knock it till you try it, you know?
 

homebrewer

Well-Known Member
You clearly like to make things as complicated as possible with all those products you're using. If you need them all, then that speaks poorly of the products you're using. If you don't need them all and you're using them anyways, then that speaks poorly of you. So which is it?
 
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