Experienced LED Pro's Help with Red Spectrum Ratios
- Thread starter green4me2
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Eraserhead
Well-Known Member
The ratio between 630nm and 660nm....
First I would look at the specs of each of those LEDs, what is their entire range and what is their output at the recommended voltage and current?
For example, different 660nm's will have different ranges and outputs, some may be 655-660nm, 660-665nm, 650-660nm, 655-665nm, 640-660nm, 655-670nm, etc.... But they are all advertised as "660nm". Those narrower ones if used in excess, can and probably will cause stunted growth and bleaching. 630nm, and every other color are like that too, and for the most part, all blue LEDs are very narrow and only cover 2-5nm per each, so if too much blue is used, not only will you stunt your plants, they will probably bleach too. A lot of people are not aware of the differences between one LED to the next, and try too hard to get enough targeted light to the bottoms of 3-4 foot tall plants by using extra 660nm, and narrower lenses, while they are getting better 660nm coverage at the bottoms of the plants, they are hurting the tops of their plants.
In my experience, it is best to try to spread the color out as much as possible, and cover as much colors as you can without adding too much of any 1 concentrated color. On the red side, you'll want to cover as much from 600-670nm as you can, favoring the 670nm side a little heavier, then also 5-10% of the total LEDs should go to farred 720-750nm.
The most important spectrum that is left out in a lot of LED grow lights, is the 500-600nm area. 65% of the color I use is from 620-670nm and 720-740nm, 10% to 400-500nm, and 25% to 500-620nm.
White LEDs are a great thing, you could easily omit all the blues and greens if you use them, and swap them for a cool white LED.
Here is a typical color spread of a cool white LED:
410-420nm: 1.4%
420-460nm: 23.75%
460-490nm: 4.5%
490-525nm: 11%
525-565nm: 22.7%
565-600nm: 16.35%
600-620nm: 6.35%
620-640nm: 4.5%
640-655nm: 3.35%
655-675nm: 2.3%
675-700nm: 2.0%
700-750nm: 1.8%
To achieve 10% blue in your overall LED mix, simply use 1:2 ratio, 1 cool white per 2 red/farred.
Good luck with your next LED light
First I would look at the specs of each of those LEDs, what is their entire range and what is their output at the recommended voltage and current?
For example, different 660nm's will have different ranges and outputs, some may be 655-660nm, 660-665nm, 650-660nm, 655-665nm, 640-660nm, 655-670nm, etc.... But they are all advertised as "660nm". Those narrower ones if used in excess, can and probably will cause stunted growth and bleaching. 630nm, and every other color are like that too, and for the most part, all blue LEDs are very narrow and only cover 2-5nm per each, so if too much blue is used, not only will you stunt your plants, they will probably bleach too. A lot of people are not aware of the differences between one LED to the next, and try too hard to get enough targeted light to the bottoms of 3-4 foot tall plants by using extra 660nm, and narrower lenses, while they are getting better 660nm coverage at the bottoms of the plants, they are hurting the tops of their plants.
In my experience, it is best to try to spread the color out as much as possible, and cover as much colors as you can without adding too much of any 1 concentrated color. On the red side, you'll want to cover as much from 600-670nm as you can, favoring the 670nm side a little heavier, then also 5-10% of the total LEDs should go to farred 720-750nm.
The most important spectrum that is left out in a lot of LED grow lights, is the 500-600nm area. 65% of the color I use is from 620-670nm and 720-740nm, 10% to 400-500nm, and 25% to 500-620nm.
White LEDs are a great thing, you could easily omit all the blues and greens if you use them, and swap them for a cool white LED.
Here is a typical color spread of a cool white LED:
410-420nm: 1.4%
420-460nm: 23.75%
460-490nm: 4.5%
490-525nm: 11%
525-565nm: 22.7%
565-600nm: 16.35%
600-620nm: 6.35%
620-640nm: 4.5%
640-655nm: 3.35%
655-675nm: 2.3%
675-700nm: 2.0%
700-750nm: 1.8%
To achieve 10% blue in your overall LED mix, simply use 1:2 ratio, 1 cool white per 2 red/farred.
Good luck with your next LED light
Rasser
Active Member
Great information, but the LEDs are not that narrow, or am I reading you wrong.
Looking at the chart I would say 75% of the light is 50nm wide
Luxeon Star Royal Blue
Source click image:
Now lasers on the other hand they are narrow.
I wonder how a seedling would act if illuminated by a red laser though a widening lens.
Source click image:
Green4me2 - "I have built a couple panels and have had moderate success"
Can we seen them, or are they secret
Eraserhead
Well-Known Member
The LEDs will vary from name brand to name brand. Look at the specs of a Bridgelux Blue.
The reason some LEDs will show a wider spectrum, is because the graphs do not show the breakdown between different bins. The graphs with these Bridgelux will show 447.5nm-465nm, but it will take 7 different LEDs to achieve that.
A Cree XPE royal blue covers 450-465nm, and you will only need that 1 diode to achieve it.
447.5 to 450nm BXCE4545447- F1-z BXCE4545447- F2-z BXCE4545447- G1-z
450 to 452.5nm BXCE4545450- F1-z BXCE4545450- F2-z BXCE4545450- G1-z
452.5 to 455nm BXCE4545452- F1-z BXCE4545452- F2-z BXCE4545452- G1-z
450 to 452.5nm BXCE4545450- F1-z BXCE4545450- F2-z BXCE4545450- G1-z
452.5 to 455nm BXCE4545452- F1-z BXCE4545452- F2-z BXCE4545452- G1-z
455 to 457.5nm BXCE4545455- F1-z BXCE4545455- F2-z BXCE4545455- G1-z
457.5 to 460nm BXCE4545457- F1-z BXCE4545457- F2-z BXCE4545457- G1-z
460 to 462.5nm BXCE4545460- F1-z BXCE4545460- F2-z BXCE4545460- G1-z
462.5 to 465nm BXCE4545462- F1-z BXCE4545462- F2-z BXCE4545462- G1-z
460 to 462.5nm BXCE4545460- F1-z BXCE4545460- F2-z BXCE4545460- G1-z
462.5 to 465nm BXCE4545462- F1-z BXCE4545462- F2-z BXCE4545462- G1-z
The reason some LEDs will show a wider spectrum, is because the graphs do not show the breakdown between different bins. The graphs with these Bridgelux will show 447.5nm-465nm, but it will take 7 different LEDs to achieve that.
A Cree XPE royal blue covers 450-465nm, and you will only need that 1 diode to achieve it.
Great information, but the LEDs are not that narrow, or am I reading you wrong.
Looking at the chart I would say 75% of the light is 50nm wide
Luxeon Star Royal Blue
Source click image:
Now lasers on the other hand they are narrow.
I wonder how a seedling would act if illuminated by a red laser though a widening lens.
Source click image:
Green4me2 - "I have built a couple panels and have had moderate success"
Can we seen them, or are they secret
Rasser
Active Member
And I'm still not convinced if all this wide spectrum focus is hype or science
For I keep coming back to this "Illumitex Horticulture LEDs in World's largest Indoor Vertical Farm"
From Lumitex website.
And it looks like you can buy the LED's from here: http://www.mouser.com/illumitexhorticulture/
But all the data sheets that could revile the spectrum used, are removed, and I can't find'em on Lumitex's site either.
But there is still something on the net that show the spectrum.
Link to giant image of spectrum's used in the "Available Spectra" image above. A must see !
http://blog.globalhardwarestore.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Grow-Chart-JPEG.jpg
So the questing is, if people make such a big investment in the worlds largest grow room
and use what looks to be F1 or F2 spectra with only red and blue LEDs, then why should
we use anything else ?
The LED Tomato Test
Ranking:
1) uv + red + blue
2) red + blue
3) red + blue + green
3) red + blue + yellow
4) red + blue + orange
For I keep coming back to this "Illumitex Horticulture LEDs in World's largest Indoor Vertical Farm"
From Lumitex website.
And it looks like you can buy the LED's from here: http://www.mouser.com/illumitexhorticulture/
But all the data sheets that could revile the spectrum used, are removed, and I can't find'em on Lumitex's site either.
But there is still something on the net that show the spectrum.
Link to giant image of spectrum's used in the "Available Spectra" image above. A must see !
http://blog.globalhardwarestore.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Grow-Chart-JPEG.jpg
So the questing is, if people make such a big investment in the worlds largest grow room
and use what looks to be F1 or F2 spectra with only red and blue LEDs, then why should
we use anything else ?
The LED Tomato Test
Ranking:
1) uv + red + blue
2) red + blue
3) red + blue + green
3) red + blue + yellow
4) red + blue + orange
Eraserhead
Well-Known Member
I think that tomato test could have been done better. They limited their testing to just a couple color mixes, and no where is there any white. If they used white + red + farred, it would have trumped all the other results, even blue + white + red + farred would have done better for them.
All my info on spectrum is based on looking at spec sheets from manufacturers, and also personal experiments. I've been studying and researching LEDs for a few years now, and just recently started selling them. Besides the white LEDs I use, the reds have a 10nm width each, and 5nm with the blues.
Like every LED on the market, one will vary from one to the next, I've looked at the Illumitex LEDs, they are for sale in a few places, I never looked at their specs because the cost is not practical yet and they do not interest me at this moment, but maybe theirs is made up differently, they definitely use different kinds of LEDs, there is multiple smaller chips making up the entire bulb, there could very well be more than 1 bin in there to complete a fuller spectrum, almost positive that is the case.
All my info on spectrum is based on looking at spec sheets from manufacturers, and also personal experiments. I've been studying and researching LEDs for a few years now, and just recently started selling them. Besides the white LEDs I use, the reds have a 10nm width each, and 5nm with the blues.
Like every LED on the market, one will vary from one to the next, I've looked at the Illumitex LEDs, they are for sale in a few places, I never looked at their specs because the cost is not practical yet and they do not interest me at this moment, but maybe theirs is made up differently, they definitely use different kinds of LEDs, there is multiple smaller chips making up the entire bulb, there could very well be more than 1 bin in there to complete a fuller spectrum, almost positive that is the case.
Wow great info everyone! I am not exactly convinced just yet on the full range leds yet either, but i see and understand both sides of the argument and I cant decide if one is truly superior to the other.
My last panel did just as Eraserhead described. It stunted growth and i believe it may have been due to an overload in blue and violet leds.
Eraserhead in your experience what do you prefer for a ratio of 630nm to 660nm leds? Given the thought that both the 630nm and 660nm leds emit equal amounts of radiant energy. 2 660nm leds to 1 630nm led? Or do you consider that to be to much 660nm?
My last panel did just as Eraserhead described. It stunted growth and i believe it may have been due to an overload in blue and violet leds.
Eraserhead in your experience what do you prefer for a ratio of 630nm to 660nm leds? Given the thought that both the 630nm and 660nm leds emit equal amounts of radiant energy. 2 660nm leds to 1 630nm led? Or do you consider that to be to much 660nm?
Eraserhead
Well-Known Member
I would try to get at least one more red color in between the 630nm and 660nm, such as 640nm. I'd do the ratio as follows: 630:640:660 2:2:3, if you went with just 630nm and 660nm, I'd do 630:660 2:3
If you add cool white into the mix, I'd do cool white:630:640:660 3:2:2:3, or cool white:630:660 2:2:3
If you add cool white into the mix, I'd do cool white:630:640:660 3:2:2:3, or cool white:630:660 2:2:3
Thanks! I really appreciate the advice, now its time to save up and build another panel.
Rasser
Active Member
And it certainly shows, all I'm asking for is some kind of semi-scientific test.
For in reality all we want to know is, if we got 100W of electricity, what is the most
efficient way of distribute that to facilitate plant growth.
So if using 5W to spin the plant around on a pedestal enables us to save 50W of electricity, I'll look into that.
Did you also note this test. The test is not about leds but color in general I think, so the debate of wide vs. narrow, it can't settle.
I would go with the last one 10-15-75 during flowering, what 15-0-85 would have produced is the question.
So the question also becomes: Is it best to buy 100 pcs no names led's ind one bulk or 20 pcs 5 different places to get a batch mix of a kind ?
On this I'm reading:
That sounds like a conversion that could have loss, so the question is why not just use green led's instead,
is it the white led's wide spectrum that are beneficial vs. the narrow band of the green led's.
Eraserhead
Well-Known Member
Personally, I would buy LEDs from as many places as needed to achieve the spectrum you are after. Whether it is 1 place, or 10 places. As far as no-name LEDs, if I were even to consider them, I'd look at a couple and test them out before buying 100's of them. If you are building your own panel, Cree, LEDengin, Osram, and Philips are good places to start your searches. Mouser.com has lots of cool selections of different LEDs.
As for the green LED as an alternative to white, I wouldn't agree. If one were to take a monochromatic approach to building an array, I would use very little blue, but spread over 2-3 colors, then green, yellow, amber, orange then all the red and farred.
White LEDs provide all the necessary colors between 500-600nm that just a green on it's own cannot, even 2 greens, a yellow and amber wont replace a white.
White LEDs are created from blue LEDs generally, but there is no loss in output, actually a gain if you look at the other colors made by adding the phosphorus. The blue may provide 50 lumens @ 3v 700mA, but that same LED with phosphorus may cut the blue down to 15 lumens, but adds another 200 lumens in other colors, driven at the same 3v 700mA.
Would an all white LED work for flowering? Unless it is a top bin 5w Cree XPG warm white, or 5w Samsung white http://samsungled.com/eng/product/prdHighPower.asp?sSearchTab=C, I would say all white LEDs would be a failure in flowering. I do think an all 4000-6000k panel would do wonders in veg. I'm actually going to be testing a 100w 4260k panel, and will attempt flowering with it just to see what happens. The light is on the way right now.
As for the green LED as an alternative to white, I wouldn't agree. If one were to take a monochromatic approach to building an array, I would use very little blue, but spread over 2-3 colors, then green, yellow, amber, orange then all the red and farred.
White LEDs provide all the necessary colors between 500-600nm that just a green on it's own cannot, even 2 greens, a yellow and amber wont replace a white.
White LEDs are created from blue LEDs generally, but there is no loss in output, actually a gain if you look at the other colors made by adding the phosphorus. The blue may provide 50 lumens @ 3v 700mA, but that same LED with phosphorus may cut the blue down to 15 lumens, but adds another 200 lumens in other colors, driven at the same 3v 700mA.
Would an all white LED work for flowering? Unless it is a top bin 5w Cree XPG warm white, or 5w Samsung white http://samsungled.com/eng/product/prdHighPower.asp?sSearchTab=C, I would say all white LEDs would be a failure in flowering. I do think an all 4000-6000k panel would do wonders in veg. I'm actually going to be testing a 100w 4260k panel, and will attempt flowering with it just to see what happens. The light is on the way right now.
patrikantonius
Active Member
There is no gain in light output from a blue to a similar white LED, most likely there will be a small loss.
From my former researches I found out that for instance the Osram Oslon SSL Pure white LED has a radiant output efficacy of 387mW/W whereas the royal blue LED in the same series outputs 460mW/W (for average bins).
White LEDs might be better in high power panels because there would be less "saturation" as the light would be distributed over a larger spectrum. But to reach the light saturation I think it would take a very powerful light already.
From my former researches I found out that for instance the Osram Oslon SSL Pure white LED has a radiant output efficacy of 387mW/W whereas the royal blue LED in the same series outputs 460mW/W (for average bins).
White LEDs might be better in high power panels because there would be less "saturation" as the light would be distributed over a larger spectrum. But to reach the light saturation I think it would take a very powerful light already.
Rasser
Active Member
There is, if your human, and not a plant, I was about to say there is that dirty word again "Lumen"
I was looking at the E3 spectrum and this has a little green in it, where there other spectra's have non,
This saturation point I take is this:
Photosynthetic efficiency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Photosynthesis by D.O.Hall & K.K.Rao says that photosynthesis increases linearly up to about
10,000 lux or ~100 watts/square meter before beginning to exhibit saturation effects.
Thus, most plants can only utilize ~10% of full mid-day sunlight intensity.
Image not from wiki.
But is a super narrow 660nm 50W laser light going through a widening lens worse than the wider 50W 660nm LED light ?
I can easy imagine that different colors work in different layers of the leaf, blue vs. red or something, but isn't photosynthesis
about particle collision and the likelihood of that happening, I don't know, haven't got to that yet, and I'm just looking for some
kind of evidence or test of this narrow vs. wide thing, witch I must say sounds convincing and logical, but it could be wrong.
Rasser
Active Member
Photosynthetic efficiency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Starting with the solar spectrum falling on a leaf,
47% lost due to photons outside the 400700 nm active range (chlorophyll utilizes photons between 400 and 700 nm, extracting the energy of one 700 nm photon from each one)
30% of the in-band photons are lost due to incomplete absorption or photons hitting components other than chloroplasts
24% of the absorbed photon energy is lost due to degrading short wavelength photons to the 700 nm energy level
68% of the utilized energy is lost in conversion into d-glucose
3545% of the glucose is consumed by the leaf in the processes of dark and photo respiration.
24% That's a lot, I wonder what can be done if any to counteract this loss.
And I'm reminded of this post with the difference of red and blue photon energy value.
A red photon with wavelength of 660nm have a energy of 1.879 eV
A blue photon with wavelength of 442nm have a energy of 2.808 eV
But if photons degrade to lower wavelength in the leafs, then hitting the leafs with a narrow spectrum light
is maybe washed out over a wider area.
"Degrading to the 700 nm energy level" Yes, and we all know what that's like right? I buy my hashish there when I'm dry
Starting with the solar spectrum falling on a leaf,
47% lost due to photons outside the 400700 nm active range (chlorophyll utilizes photons between 400 and 700 nm, extracting the energy of one 700 nm photon from each one)
30% of the in-band photons are lost due to incomplete absorption or photons hitting components other than chloroplasts
24% of the absorbed photon energy is lost due to degrading short wavelength photons to the 700 nm energy level
68% of the utilized energy is lost in conversion into d-glucose
3545% of the glucose is consumed by the leaf in the processes of dark and photo respiration.
24% That's a lot, I wonder what can be done if any to counteract this loss.
And I'm reminded of this post with the difference of red and blue photon energy value.
A red photon with wavelength of 660nm have a energy of 1.879 eV
A blue photon with wavelength of 442nm have a energy of 2.808 eV
But if photons degrade to lower wavelength in the leafs, then hitting the leafs with a narrow spectrum light
is maybe washed out over a wider area.
"Degrading to the 700 nm energy level" Yes, and we all know what that's like right? I buy my hashish there when I'm dry
patrikantonius
Active Member
I do not seem to understand this fully. Does that mean that the 450nm photons (for instance) carry a large amount of energy but as soon as they hit the plant leaves this energy drops to a lower level -- the level of energy that 700nm photons have? If such energy is lost, where does it go? Isn't it used by the plant?
Rasser
Active Member
I imagine photons as spinning balls, blue rotate faster than red, chlorophyll can only absorb spinnings balls with a certain rotation speed,
When a fast blue ball is colliding with other particles in the leaf is looses some energy-rotation speed and bounces back,
heating the hit molecule a fraction, and I would imagine that it continues this way, all the way to 700nm if not absorbed by then,
going into IR the pure blue ball who was ones upon a time a proud Royal Blue ball is now ending it's days as simple heat
that makes two molecules vibrates a little faster for some time RIP.
I guess life is not fair if your a photon some live for 13 billion years traveling through space others live 0,000000001 sec.
Edit: I've just noted that this thread is called "...Help with Red Spectrum Ratios" then I'm sure that the threads first picture will make a lot of sense if your just scrolling browsing.
Edit 2: Ubs I forgot, this degrading effect could be what is behind the HPS lights great performance I think,
looking at the spectrum, imagine 24% of that yellow light turning into red where it is more easily absorbed.
PetFlora
Well-Known Member
I am in full agreement, but many are brainwashed against it. Would love to know if you do a thread on it.
PetFlora
Well-Known Member
Thought I would repost this as my plants have been getting ample 630 from 1 UVL Aquasun + 2 ZooMed florosuns + 3 UVL Red Lifes. Additionally I have 1/8 UVL 660 + 1 Coral Wave:
This is from another site, It is a led discussion, but the spectral needs are the same no matter the lighting choice
Couple that with strong white light (green-response chlorophyll extending throughout and deep into leaf structures, with a net effect at or near that of the (mostly) surface-level blue and reds), which also takes care of most of the ~660nm+ you actually need for photomorphogenesis - and you can get by with 630nm reds just fine.
(i.e. 630nm red is ~95% of the PSR of 660nm, AND they currently still have ~20-30% greater radiometric efficiency - as well as being cheaper than the deep reds - so there's more 'bang for the buck'):
Apparently true for T5s too. The 660 MSRP being ~ 1/3 more expensive than the Red Life
This is from another site, It is a led discussion, but the spectral needs are the same no matter the lighting choice
Couple that with strong white light (green-response chlorophyll extending throughout and deep into leaf structures, with a net effect at or near that of the (mostly) surface-level blue and reds), which also takes care of most of the ~660nm+ you actually need for photomorphogenesis - and you can get by with 630nm reds just fine.
(i.e. 630nm red is ~95% of the PSR of 660nm, AND they currently still have ~20-30% greater radiometric efficiency - as well as being cheaper than the deep reds - so there's more 'bang for the buck'):
Apparently true for T5s too. The 660 MSRP being ~ 1/3 more expensive than the Red Life
hydrojoe88
Active Member
great info, gonna follow this formula for sure. Just had 2 question tho, is cool white all you need? would i gain any benefit from throwing in some neutral and warm white in the mix?
you also mentioned in a later post about an all white veg panel, what ratio of whites would you suggest for that? I spent my summer working at an organic farm, and now i cant eat the produce from the stores. It is just awful looking in comparison, so i was thinking of starting a lil mini LED vegetable garden to feed me and the fam. So i plan on using the all white panel just for leafy greens like kale, spinach, and other salad mixes. Thanks in advance for the advice, ive been quitely watching your posts, and your one of the most thorough people ive seen when it comes to LED's.
Eraserhead
Well-Known Member
Wow, that post is like 7 months old...
For an all white panel, just out of simplicity (and efficiency), I'd recommend Cree natural white XPG from Rapid LED, they have solderless components + heat sinks and stuff....
For flowering just add some Cree XPE 630nm, and as an extra option, some Philips 660nm (use sparingly in ratio to the 630nm, less is more ) both are from from Rapid also.
For an all white panel, just out of simplicity (and efficiency), I'd recommend Cree natural white XPG from Rapid LED, they have solderless components + heat sinks and stuff....
For flowering just add some Cree XPE 630nm, and as an extra option, some Philips 660nm (use sparingly in ratio to the 630nm, less is more
) both are from from Rapid also.