Effiency race... is it necessary ?

hillbill

Well-Known Member
I have ducted A/C heat vent into tent and find it is great to keep soil mix warm and plants happy. Also can help plants in the winter to run COBs bare and closer to plants. Transpiration metabolism need help in colder weather at times. HPS puts out infrared and dramatically heats surfaces including leaves.

Plants at my house at higher tent air temps are happier than HPS grown. Summer high light demand annuals generally enjoy warm soil.
 

pop22

Well-Known Member
what your supposition with these figures tells me is you not using the space efficiently then. growroom systems need to be designed to maximize the use of the space, to make the entire system efficient, not to just maximize supposed plant growth.

Use a 12 position Nob check out "3in1 dimming" thread from stardust.



Here I gave you a scientific study showing you that LED need at least 80F ambiant Temp to achieve a good efficiency, maybe even 84F is using monos. I wanted to discuss if really more efficient light means more efficient overall system, and if efficiency is still the limiting factor in our set up...

I will make an example to illustrate better the point I want to discuss:

I have a 1x1x2m box. I maximise my light because I have a high Co2 level in my place and I want to make as much weed as possible in my box. So I need about 350W PAR (about 1500PPFD with 3500K cob). I also need extraction for my plant to breeze, say the minimum is to extract the volume of the box every minutes it make about 150m3/h

In terms of parameters I want 85F for ambiant temp, not less, otherwise, as the paper show, Leaf Surface Temperature become too low and it photosynthesis drop.

I want to achieve all these ideal parameters and spend the less possible money - investment and elec bill needs to be taken into account.

So
  1. I get a 40% eff LED lamp, I will need 875W of light in my room, and I will get 525W of heat.
  2. I get a 50% eff LED I will need 700W and get 350W electricity bill goes down by 20% here, initial investment goes up.
At this point we make the assumption that this to light enable me to reach this 84F temp, hence I better go with the 50% eff LED. We all agree !!!

But now let's continue the race as it is happening,
>>>>>3. I go for 65% eff LED lamp, then I use only 540W that give me 188W of heat. I put a lot of initial investment because it is way more expensive than 50% eff, but electricity bill is reduce by 22% compare to 50% eff and 38% from my initial 40% eff Light so I will recover my money. Great !

Problem, there is not enough heat with only 188W, my temp in the room goes down to 80F, the plant grow less and they don't use the 350W of PAR light as efficiently as before.
Ouch !!! It means I invested a lot of money to get 5% more efficiency but because of f... Temperature my plants grow 5% more slow... Operation is null and I losed money. Even worst, if race continu to the point temperature is too low, I might pay a lot of $ for 5% percent but the plant will have a metabolism reduced by say 10 or 15% percent.

Why is that ? because the limiting factor here is temperature ! not light, not Co2 not any thing else anymore.

Solutions ?
I decrease the extraction =>> no, we assume it was already at the minimum.
I add heater => it add cost, electricity bill, and my 65% efficiency LED costed me a lot more money than the 50%...

reduce LED efficiency => less investment, more electricity bill but ideal on all the other parameters. It is called a hit, the sweet spot. It will be different for different application, but again I think 65% efficiency might not be better than 55% depending of your case.

Now let's find this sweet spot ;)
 

Shugglet

Well-Known Member
what your supposition with these figures tells me is you not using the space efficiently then. growroom systems need to be designed to maximize the use of the space, to make the entire system efficient, not to just maximize supposed plant growth.
It's very tough to make only one of those aspects efficient without the other following suit...

My question. Is why he thinks the arbitrary minimum he said for extraction levels is actually the minimum. Exhaust less, raise heat. Simple, no?

Also, he's running "high co2" but it's not sealed... I'd be curious what his co2 system is.
 

speedyganga

Well-Known Member
It's very tough to make only one of those aspects efficient without the other following suit...

My question. Is why he thinks the arbitrary minimum he said for extraction levels is actually the minimum. Exhaust less, raise heat. Simple, no?

Also, he's running "high co2" but it's not sealed... I'd be curious what his co2 system is.
Co2 system ? hum... myself ;) I grow on small scale in my place, Co2 is above 8-900ppm all the time.

I actually don't know the minimum extraction, I read many time for 3 to 10x and hour... I agree I would need more information on this...

Exhaust less, yes, but I already exaust very little.

what your supposition with these figures tells me is you not using the space efficiently then. growroom systems need to be designed to maximize the use of the space, to make the entire system efficient, not to just maximize supposed plant growth.
Engish is not my mother toungue, this doens't mean anything to me... Like, sorry I don't understand at all what you try to say.
I try to grow as much weed as possible in a 1mx1mx2m. That is all.
and I saw that more than light, if parameters aren't good, nothing happens. If you d'ont run 80F minmum your light from Led is not used as much as it could.
 

Shugglet

Well-Known Member
Co2 system ? hum... myself ;) I grow on small scale in my place, Co2 is above 8-900ppm all the time.

I actually don't know the minimum extraction, I read many time for 3 to 10x and hour... I agree I would need more information on this...

Exhaust less, yes, but I already exaust very little.
So do you actually measure the CO2 or just assume it is above 8-900ppm all the time, because that would seem to me a mighty big assumption...

The main point of exhaust is to remove heat. There really isnt a "minimum" as long as there is air flow and temps are under control.
 

pepperdust

Well-Known Member
For sure efficiency needs to keep rising, why, because you pay less, and can achieve more light per watt. but that's efficiency of light, maybe the new chips costs more and thus better to keep what you have

I think the problem then in tents in having a switch or manual lever in lights to blow hot down on plants or up. this can also half be combated by putting sizing a smaller fan, toning down fan, and season growing, and or light timing hours as in time you run the lights during what part of day. maybe switch the fan from top to bottom so it pulls the heat down?

there is so many factors for efficiency that really growing outside with chicken shit and urine and free compost is efficient but were humans and we want to control stuff..

here's a tip.. go for the 20% of results that get you 80% gain.. thats to say, even supplying nutrition is that.. now tweaking it is gonna costs you 80% time for 20% return.. look where in your grow you can change the simple stuff to get max reward.. that's where you aim.. you don't replace a LED light with a new one because that's again a 80% investment with 20% return then what you had... maybe for you it's cutting out additives, there's big costs with little return if any return.. how about running extra 20 min. light vs. if you were thinking of buying a new light.. and obviously at some point you will need to switch light sometime down the road... outthink on these things first for max efficiency, as it's not what you gain, it's what you don't put in first ... .... this is the world of business and applies to even growing

or even better, apply that to outside growing.. you will find more savings then in a hobby tent.. but hobbies are hobbies...
 

speedyganga

Well-Known Member
So do you actually measure the CO2 or just assume it is above 8-900ppm all the time, because that would seem to me a mighty big assumption...

The main point of exhaust is to remove heat. There really isnt a "minimum" as long as there is air flow and temps are under control.
I measure... How would i tell you 8-900ppm all the time, if I dont measure it ?! It is to 1000+ppm when we sleep.

Well if you go sealed you need co2 injection. There is a minimum. It is the one when plants can't breath.


Anyway, i guess i figure it out: i am out of the race already. In my location 60% is the max i should target at 1500pffd. More and i would need to add a heater or reduce my fan to the point plants wont get enough co2.
Race is usefull for people growing on hot places, Not mine, and many are in my situation.
They should come to the same conclusion sooner or later
 

Shugglet

Well-Known Member
or reduce my fan to the point plants wont get enough co2.
This isnt the case though. Any airflow at all will keep CO2 levels inside your grow the same as ambient. Use you CO2 meter and test the levels at the intake vs inside the grow.

The reason I ask about the CO2 monitoring is because most people dont spent the money it costs for a co2 monitor without having an active injection system.

And I think youre coming to these conclusions mainly because of your incorrect assumptions about ventilation.
 
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