eCONOMIC THEORY

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
You know what I would be ashamed of? Agreeing with Ayn Rand.
I don't talk about Ayn Rand at all unless prompted. Why are you fixated on one person? Altruism isn't the problem as much as forcing your beliefs on others. Helping a person who is starving is a great thing, stealing from your neighbors to help them only makes you a thief. I fail to understand why you can't understand that.

You realize that not being for altruism didn't cause that child to starve, right? It had absolutely nothing to do with Ayn Rand or Altruism.

Good job on using a picture of a dead baby to deflect your disgust with yourself for not even understanding the positions you hold.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I think Ayn missed the point entirely. We don't need to expend thought to reject the morality of altruism; we do it by nature. I would truly like for altruism to be prevalent, but it depends on people being fair, thoughtful, rational. But I see humans as much more creatures of their passions than reason, and an altruistic society is the proverbial barrel of apples: it only takes one bad one to taint the whole barrel. Altruistic societies, while the focus of many a wish, are not stable imo. cn
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
I don't talk about Ayn Rand at all unless prompted. Why are you fixated on one person? Altruism isn't the problem as much as forcing your beliefs on others. Helping a person who is starving is a great thing, stealing from your neighbors to help them only makes you a thief. I fail to understand why you can't understand that.

You realize that not being for altruism didn't cause that child to starve, right? It had absolutely nothing to do with Ayn Rand or Altruism.

Good job on using a picture of a dead baby to deflect your disgust with yourself for not even understanding the positions you hold.
I have been going far out of my way not to force my beliefs on anyone.

You're an idiot if you think a lack of altruism is not the direct cause of that child or any other child dying of starvation. It has everything to with socioeconomic stratification.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
I think Ayn missed the point entirely. We don't need to expend thought to reject the morality of altruism; we do it by nature. I would truly like for altruism to be prevalent, but it depends on people being fair, thoughtful, rational. But I see humans as much more creatures of their passions than reason, and an altruistic society is the proverbial barrel of apples: it only takes one bad one to taint the whole barrel. Altruistic societies, while the focus of many a wish, are not stable imo. cn
Let us not become a nation where starving children die as buzzards watch. While we're at it, let's stop inflicting such conditions on other nations.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Our society continues to benefit from slavery and the despotism of the third world. That is why we keep them in such conditions and every time they attempt to elect someone to leed them out of those conditions, we send in our CIA dogs to assassinate and set up puppet regimes. The US government has been doing it for decades.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Let us not become a nation where starving children die as buzzards watch. While we're at it, let's stop inflicting such conditions on other nations.
So easy to say those things, abandon. But so hard to do.

How much would it cost to feed everyone in the Sudan for one year? The cost of the food&water is tiny. The cost of logistics in hostile territory is vast. cn
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
So easy to say those things, abandon. But so hard to do.

How much would it cost to feed everyone in the Sudan for one year? The cost of the food&water is tiny. The cost of logistics in hostile territory is vast. cn
With what we feed all the cows a year in America alone, we could feed the entire world two years.

What the world spends in 8 days on military, would feed the world for a year.

3% of the US defense budget would feed the world.

4% of the 2008 stimulus would have fed the world for a year.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
As for the cost of logistics in hostile territory, I'm of the frame of mind that they are only hostile because they wish to nationalize their resources and we want our corporations in there exploiting them. If that is the case, they can feed themselves and all we have to do is leave them alone. Some countries will still have starving people and the UN can handle it. One thing I am also certain of, is that it would be cheaper to feed people than bomb them and it would produce greater results as pertains to our national security.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
As for the cost of logistics in hostile territory, I'm of the frame of mind that they are only hostile because they wish to nationalize their resources and we want our corporations in there exploiting them. If that is the case, they can feed themselves and all we have to do is leave them alone. Some countries will still have starving people and the UN can handle it. One thing I am also certain of, is that it would be cheaper to feed people than bomb them and it would produce greater results as pertains to our national security.
I chose the Sudan with care. They are emphatically not trying to nationalize their resources, unless you consider a warlord and his ragtag militia a nation.
The logistics problem is real and severe. The cows example doesn't hold much water because all those cows and steers are conveniently located near railheads in peaceful territory. cn
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
With what we feed all the cows a year in America alone, we could feed the entire world two years.

What the world spends in 8 days on military, would feed the world for a year.

3% of the US defense budget would feed the world.

4% of the 2008 stimulus would have fed the world for a year.
All I can say is show me. The cost of the food is not the issue. The cost is getting the food into EVERY hand that needs it, over and over again. cn
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
http://www.stopthehunger.com/

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/campaigns/agriculture/problem/genetic-engineering/feeding-the-world-facts-vers/

The first link has sources listed at the bottom. The second link is to a Greenpeace article that corroborates much of what I have read from Latin American sources which is where I mainly get my news so this is something to read in English that should make some sense.

India has many starving people but is paradoxically a net exporter of food. This has to do with market factors that could easily be adjusted through shifting market strategies in the US, but it would not be profitable for US corporations to do so.

Africa is a tougher nut to crack. However, the thing about having a list of problems affecting an much greater number of folks, is that when problems are given solutions, the number of people solving them grows. Believe me when I tell you I have researched this in depth. The cost to feed the world is a drop in the bucket compared to what is wasted.

A lot of solutions also do not seem to be directly connected to food or to logistics but to other markets entirely. For example, rare earths. This is a big one, because it seems the continent with the most hungry people happens to be the richest in terms of wealth per person. One would think that means that there are jobs in Africa for miners. The fact is, these jobs are being worked by slaves (there I go again, right?). They are compelled, by market forces to work for next to nothing and in many cases are indeed forced to work by all manner of threat. In fact, the only option existing in most cases, for the sale of these resources is an exploitative black market which profits greatly at the cost of people who likely have no idea how they make it possible for any of us to afford devices like Iphones. Even many of the corporations included in the chain of production are not privy to the facts and simply seek materials at the cheapest cost. This has a rippling effect on workers in first world economies too, such as Gina Rinehart's employees who are taking pay cuts. They have to compete and even with more efficient techniques and modern infrastructure it is cheaper to get resources out of Africa, even in Australia, in her own market.

What I'm getting at, is that instead of reaping huge benefits at home, that we somehow foster unionization of labor in Africa. That is asking a lot huh? Blood diamonds are cheaper. It isn't just diamonds though, it is almost all rare earths. Who is willing to pay more for freedom diamonds? What corporation will float if they boycott such resources? The issue of diamonds has been given plenty of attention but Africa has the same sorts of issues pertaining to all of it's resources, while many people starve. It may not seem like there is much we can do here, but most of the demand for those resources is in the first world. In a lot of ways, it resembles the way the drug war has made Latin America so violent.
 

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
All I can say is show me. The cost of the food is not the issue. The cost is getting the food into EVERY hand that needs it, over and over again. cn
Abandon has devolved into a complete Commie with his "feed everyone,wahhhhhh wahhhhh" talk.

He also seems to believe we can just magically teleport food to everywhere it's needed, insta-magically.

"Libertarian Socialism" apparently involves the freedom to not use your brain.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
Abandon has devolved into a complete Commie with his "feed everyone,wahhhhhh wahhhhh" talk.

He also seems to believe we can just magically teleport food to everywhere it's needed, insta-magically.

"Libertarian Socialism" apparently involves the freedom to not use your brain.
You know what would be magical?

If our culture kept on the way we are going and didn't face extinction. Why do you hate your species?
 

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
You know what would be magical?

If our culture kept on the way we are going and didn't face extinction. Why do you hate your species?
Lets cut the bullshit here, Africa are totally Aid-dependent.

Ancient Greece was more advanced economically than modern day Africa.

If you REALLY want to help the starving in the world, let them learn to fend for themselves.

Seriously, money has been sent there since my Grandparents were kids, and all they ever get is more AK47's.

What was it they said about repeating the same action over and over ad nauseum and expecting a different result?
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
I have been going far out of my way not to force my beliefs on anyone.

You're an idiot if you think a lack of altruism is not the direct cause of that child or any other child dying of starvation. It has everything to with socioeconomic stratification.
It has a lot to do with poor decision making by the parents. "Were starving, lets have some kids."

I didn't say YOU were forcing your beliefs numbnuts. I said that was the problem with altruism, not altruism itself.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
Our society continues to benefit from slavery and the despotism of the third world. That is why we keep them in such conditions and every time they attempt to elect someone to leed them out of those conditions, we send in our CIA dogs to assassinate and set up puppet regimes. The US government has been doing it for decades.
The same thing happened before America. There has always been starving nations.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
http://www.stopthehunger.com/

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/campaigns/agriculture/problem/genetic-engineering/feeding-the-world-facts-vers/

The first link has sources listed at the bottom. The second link is to a Greenpeace article that corroborates much of what I have read from Latin American sources which is where I mainly get my news so this is something to read in English that should make some sense.

India has many starving people but is paradoxically a net exporter of food. This has to do with market factors that could easily be adjusted through shifting market strategies in the US, but it would not be profitable for US corporations to do so.

Africa is a tougher nut to crack. However, the thing about having a list of problems affecting an much greater number of folks, is that when problems are given solutions, the number of people solving them grows. Believe me when I tell you I have researched this in depth. The cost to feed the world is a drop in the bucket compared to what is wasted.

A lot of solutions also do not seem to be directly connected to food or to logistics but to other markets entirely. For example, rare earths. This is a big one, because it seems the continent with the most hungry people happens to be the richest in terms of wealth per person. One would think that means that there are jobs in Africa for miners. The fact is, these jobs are being worked by slaves (there I go again, right?). They are compelled, by market forces to work for next to nothing and in many cases are indeed forced to work by all manner of threat. In fact, the only option existing in most cases, for the sale of these resources is an exploitative black market which profits greatly at the cost of people who likely have no idea how they make it possible for any of us to afford devices like Iphones. Even many of the corporations included in the chain of production are not privy to the facts and simply seek materials at the cheapest cost. This has a rippling effect on workers in first world economies too, such as Gina Rinehart's employees who are taking pay cuts. They have to compete and even with more efficient techniques and modern infrastructure it is cheaper to get resources out of Africa, even in Australia, in her own market.

What I'm getting at, is that instead of reaping huge benefits at home, that we somehow foster unionization of labor in Africa. That is asking a lot huh? Blood diamonds are cheaper. It isn't just diamonds though, it is almost all rare earths. Who is willing to pay more for freedom diamonds? What corporation will float if they boycott such resources? The issue of diamonds has been given plenty of attention but Africa has the same sorts of issues pertaining to all of it's resources, while many people starve. It may not seem like there is much we can do here, but most of the demand for those resources is in the first world. In a lot of ways, it resembles the way the drug war has made Latin America so violent.
If you feed them, they will become more prosperous, and have more children. Do you not see the counter productiveness of it? Artificial stimulation of a populace that leads to making the problem worse, not better. Kind of like what we did to our mortgage industry. Once they start to completely depend on the food, something might happen that they stop getting it and you have simply starved more people. Makes little sense in real life. It is only to make you feel better.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
If you feed them, they will become more prosperous, and have more children. Do you not see the counter productiveness of it? Artificial stimulation of a populace that leads to making the problem worse, not better. Kind of like what we did to our mortgage industry. Once they start to completely depend on the food, something might happen that they stop getting it and you have simply starved more people. Makes little sense in real life. It is only to make you feel better.
Deciphering...

"If we stop waging war upon mankind, some unintelligible slippery slope might lead to disaster! Our current progress toward disaster makes me feel better!"
 
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