Dood, let's try this again

Alright, a friend of mine turned me onto you guys. One of my sons grows (hydro) and he grows f'ing KILLER stuff. But, he lives many hundreds of miles away from me. He also has the po-po to be careful of, whereas I've got a little property.

So, this year I'm supposed to be getting a greenhouse, but in the meantime I tend to be quiet and stay to myself. That means I don't easily make connections. Time to grow my own. We've got a nice back deck, about 30'-40' feet off the ground, west-facing. We're still getting somewhat frosty mornings (frost on the neighbor's roof, but I see none out on the back 40), but I'm thinking it's time to get something started and because no one can see anything of ours unless they're actually on our property. So, I think that's going to be the perfect spot to get some seedlings started. I also have a great big pot that I had started some banana plants in, then the dog ate some them and whipped the rest to shreds with her tail (she's a happy dog), so I've got this great big planter full of soil and nothing else.

So, should I post my question regarding how to get started seedlings transplanted to soil here, or somewhere else?
My problem is that I've gotten plenty of seeds started on paper towels just fine, but every time I try to transplant into soil they just wither up and die. I'm wondering if I should just start them out in the soil in the first place and not have the worry or put their tiny seedling selves in shock.

I'll be honest, I've spent a lot of time searching the site, and I'm not easily finding the answer to my question. Since I'm growing outdoors I don't have lighting worries, plus it appears that few here speak the same light language I do. For instance, if you're talking about light and color, are you talking about Kelvin rating? Lumens? Wavelength? Color temperature (kinda the same thing as Kelvin)? Or maybe it's that I don't speak your language. In any event, some links pointing me in the right direction would be helpful and probably easiest for you folks here.

Oh, I think I'm pretty much a zone 8 (or, 7a-7b according to the USNA site) for planting. Won't be planting under pine or cedar, because once the greenhouse is up that's where everything will go. We're on well water and soon we'll be taking ourselves off the grid, too, but that'll have no real effect except make getting that water cheaper (and make US more independent).

Hotay, keep the shiny side up!

Seedlings aren't going to like that frost at all. Start them inside under some fluorescent lights 24/7. Put them in some "keg" cups and get some good soil. Don't skimp on the soil either. Baby those bitches and they'll return the favor!

Good Luck!!!

I have never started seeds with the wet paper towel method. I scuff the seed on some rough sandpaper and then go right in to potting soil. have never had issue with this method. Congrats on going off the grid!

I've recently started some seeds and I had the same issue, it's still too cold for them so I grew them inside in cups on a window sill and now they're ready for outdoors. Just another suggestion on starting.

Awesome, thanks! I'd never heard of scuffing up the... dermis (?) of the seed before. Thanks for that tip, gurl.

We're not off the grid yet, but we're working on it. The same son who's got the green thumb turned my husband and me onto this thing called a Stirling motor. It's a heat exchange motor. Husband's pretty sure he can sort out fabrication of the motor itself. Beyond that, solar collection dishes are needed (unless we did the heat exchange tied into the ground, but solar may be the best start) and those aren't a problem because the local cable company is GIVING them to us.

The threads here seem to really explode, and I've got a bike to ride, but that's not the point. The point is that I have another question, which is in regard to the comment from the nun-toker, Blunted1, about not skimping on soil. I have seen in a few threads some discussion about which soil is best, and it appears that a lot of folks like the Miracle Gro. I'm assuming that they're talking about the soil mix, and not soil mixed with Miracle Gro, right? You guys are talking about the stuff I see on the commercials, yes? I'm kind of in the boonies so it's a drive to find a Lowe's or Home Depot, which means I don't want to have to make more than one trip if I don't have to. Also, availability of some things can be tricky out here, so I'm thinking it's gonna be easier to find something like the MG soil.

I've got a great spot inside where I keep some houseplants, gets afternoon sun, by the sliding doors that lead to the back deck. House gets as cool as 60F at night, but from what I've read that should be fine. If I need to keep their roots warm I could use either a heating pad (cheap) or maybe something like a pig blanket or a ReptiTherm (TM), right? But I didn't find anything that mentions keeping their roots warm, just about the frost.

Also, from what I'm reading (I was up LATE last night on here) the maturing plants don't like to be kept moist, let alone wet, they want to be allowed to dry out. How about when I'm first starting the seeds in soil? The paper towels you've gotta keep pretty damp (not dripping). So, damp soil for the starts?

i try to keep my seedlings damp but not totally soaked by sprinkling water on them without disturbing the soil much. So far as soil goes, I prefer Scotts potting soil from my local hardware store, have seen it at Lowes also. There is a really good post in here somewhere about growing in perlite but have not tried it myself. I think the idea is to find a good draining soil. Some folks have reported issue with Miracle Grow due to the added nutrients but I have not had any issue with MG, just better success with Scotts. I think any good potting soil based on availability in your area should be just fine. Nice deal on the solar dishes....I don't use solar at home but I do alot of camping in the summer and run completely off of solar....so I guess I camp off the grid...lol
Looking forward to going completely off some day, I have a farm we will someday build a new house on and will be able to use solar and wind power.
Another 8 years here on the in town acreage (small only 3.5 acres) and we will start building out at the farm....can't wait!

Ok, I just saw an add for what may be a new Miracle Gro, but one of the things that they're promoting about it is that you'll be able to wait longer between waterings. Maybe that's exactly what the plants DON'T need, eh? This is also educating me because our "soil" is pretty much red clay and rock, iron rich and pretty high alkalinity and pH, so if I were to utilize anything from our actual land I'd have to amend it a lot, especially to lighten it up and get it draining well.

A farm, now that sounds nice. Although, even if in a city, 3.5 acres ain't too shabby at all! That can put you pretty well away from the neighbors.

Thanks for your advice.

the new moisture retaining MG scares me...lol
I like the original so experience tells me to stick to what I know. Does not seem a good idea to keep the soil holding more moisture, might make for root rot. The red clay might give you a bit of grief too. I have used just plain old Ace Hardware potting soil and mixed in some perlite to lighten it up. it worked fine but the Scotts or Miracle Grow seemed to work just a bit better.
It is nice having a little room at home to spead out, my own little mini estate.
I have about an acre in organic veggie gardens so I come out of the grow closet for the late spring and summer and concentrate my efforts on the outside. The only outdoor plants I grow are legal..well, at least I think they are...lol
We do lots of canning and spend alot of time camping in the summer, so not much time left for indoor gardening. I love to grow, anything, but awfully nice to put the indoor away for the season. Less worry as I tend to have frequesnt summer get togethers at my place. So is there a particular strain you are thinking on? Do you have a veggie garden? grow any heirlooms?

I never used MG. A friend of mine used it and had a problem with the time released nitrogen. There is a guy on here that grows some seriously nice shit! I think he posts under Subcool. Found his soil thread.
Subcool's Super Soil

thats carlton on fresh prince,thug life. thats classic.

Blunted1 said:

I never used MG. A friend of mine used it and had a problem with the time released nitrogen. There is a guy on here that grows some seriously nice shit! I think he posts under Subcool. Found his soil thread.
Subcool's Super Soil

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Where the hell am I gonna find fruit bat guano on such short notice???

flowergurl said:

the new moisture retaining MG scares me...lol
I like the original so experience tells me to stick to what I know. Does not seem a good idea to keep the soil holding more moisture, might make for root rot.

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Yeah, especially for a plant that doesn't like having its feet wet from what I'm reading.

The red clay might give you a bit of grief too. I have used just plain old Ace Hardware potting soil and mixed in some perlite to lighten it up. it worked fine but the Scotts or Miracle Grow seemed to work just a bit better.

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They're probably a bit more broken down, nutrients more easily available to the plant, but that's just a very uneducated guess. I'm sort of transferring my fish/aquatic knowledge to the subject at hand. Life systems are life systems and if we're talking about carbon-based forms, there are at least a few truisms.

It is nice having a little room at home to spead out, my own little mini estate.

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Hell YEAH!

I have about an acre in organic veggie gardens so I come out of the grow closet for the late spring and summer and concentrate my efforts on the outside. The only outdoor plants I grow are legal..well, at least I think they are...lol

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Are you saying they're so good they should be illegal? D'oh!

We do lots of canning and spend alot of time camping in the summer, so not much time left for indoor gardening. I love to grow, anything, but awfully nice to put the indoor away for the season. Less worry as I tend to have frequesnt summer get togethers at my place. So is there a particular strain you are thinking on? Do you have a veggie garden? grow any heirlooms?

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No, particular strain as I don't know shit about them. Honestly, some stuff, including what my own kid's grown, is SO good that it's almost too good. I mean, you can only break it down into so small a nug to burn! I have some seeds I saved from my most recent batch, it was ok, not the best, but it helped. I also have hip pain, don't know what's up with that but the doctors don't seem to be able to figure it out because my films look clear.

I don't grow much of anything just yet, only have some cedar, poplar, and iris planted so far. Got a bad back (work injury a few years ago) and even weeding is problematic for me. It sounds like you have one HELL of a green thumb, I'm probably gonna pick your brains because along with pulling off the grid we're going to probably be forced to start growing veggies just because of prices and the economy.

We have about 1 1/3 acres, and it's on a slope, and a large portion of the cleared land is dedicated just to our septic. That clay I mentioned is so good at holding water that the county required an engineered septic system with a gigantic leach field. We get to look forward to three more years of county meddling, fortunately my Rhodesian Ridgeback has managed to keep the county fuckers off the property. (Actually, it's pretty funny, because she's actually a very sweet dog, but she's big and POWERFUL -- I've never seen or handled such a powerful dog and I've handled dogs plenty bigger than she -- and probably looks pretty scary to someone who doesn't know her.) These guys have balls of steel, though, as they're used to the old-timers out here who shoot first and ask questions later (gotta keep your stake safe, right? don't want anyone jumping your claim). In any event, she prevented them from coming onto the property and screwing around with things, and we like it just fine that way.

Always happy to help out a fellow gardener. We are heavy into the organics, figure if we are going to put in the time, had better do it right. It is pretty nice to be able to run to the canning room and pull out homemade organic salsa, pasta sauce, bread and butter jalepenos etc in the dead of winter. My potatoes and squash last until about, well, last week for the squash and only about 20 lbs of potatoes left...c'mon spring......
I never started the endevour with the financial aspect in mind but it does save quite a bit on the grocery bills as we were buying organic produce and such and it is pricey compared to non organics, so we do see a significant savings. I donate alot of fresh veggies to the local Aids project and have a few small restaurants/coffee shops that I trade tomatoes for cappucinos. My veggies are like my marijuana. I won't sell any of it. Don't care what I am offered, it is not for sale. I do give quite a bit away though....nothing like a jar of salsa, marinara, pickled jalepenos and a pint of buds to make for a perfect Christmas present. When does your outdoor growing season start? You could do alot with only a 1/4 to 1/2 acre.......nothing like a ripe tomato fresh off the vine...mmmmm...can't wait. Do you get Morel mushrooms where you live?

I'm always stoked for a new grower, but my one question is if your son grows good stuff then you should maybe ask him to set you up a hydro system its quicker for a crop, unless you are wanting to just grow outside your house then its prob not a good idea, anyways best of luck too you, i'm quite sure you will have success with the tips from the others on this thread i've tryed these meathods and they have all worked for me!!

flowergurl said:

Always happy to help out a fellow gardener. We are heavy into the organics, figure if we are going to put in the time, had better do it right. It is pretty nice to be able to run to the canning room and pull out homemade organic salsa, pasta sauce, bread and butter jalepenos etc in the dead of winter. My potatoes and squash last until about, well, last week for the squash and only about 20 lbs of potatoes left...c'mon spring......
I never started the endevour with the financial aspect in mind but it does save quite a bit on the grocery bills as we were buying organic produce and such and it is pricey compared to non organics, so we do see a significant savings. I donate alot of fresh veggies to the local Aids project and have a few small restaurants/coffee shops that I trade tomatoes for cappucinos. My veggies are like my marijuana. I won't sell any of it. Don't care what I am offered, it is not for sale. I do give quite a bit away though....nothing like a jar of salsa, marinara, pickled jalepenos and a pint of buds to make for a perfect Christmas present. When does your outdoor growing season start? You could do alot with only a 1/4 to 1/2 acre.......nothing like a ripe tomato fresh off the vine...mmmmm...can't wait. Do you get Morel mushrooms where you live?

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Well, like I said, I think I'm a zone 7a-7b. Daffodils are blooming already, the oaks are getting their pollen buds going (hello, allergies, my how you've grown ), and the vines at the wineries are starting to green up. There's still a chance for more winter weather, but there's gonna be that chance til June, just cuz that's how it is up here.

You've got principles, I'd sell my veggies in a heartbeat. My husband, he'd give 'em away, LMAO. I wasn't hungry til I started reading your pantry list, dammit, and I'm on a diet (MUST fit into that wetsuit before we get to Guam or I'll look like the Michelin Man in Black, shit hell that's not a pretty picture). Salsa's on my diet, though, and so are peppers. Mmm... chiles. Mmm FOOD!

Oh, in case you hadn't noticed, I tend to kinda ramble.

strictly'dope74 said:

I'm always stoked for a new grower, but my one question is if your son grows good stuff then you should maybe ask him to set you up a hydro system its quicker for a crop, unless you are wanting to just grow outside your house then its prob not a good idea, anyways best of luck too you, i'm quite sure you will have success with the tips from the others on this thread i've tryed these meathods and they have all worked for me!!

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Hey, thanks very much, don't think I didn't think about it!
It's a matter of economics for me, though. I wouldn't be growing, but work is very hard to find around here and I've been looking for a permanent job for well over a year (and I mean well over). I tend to be a very private person, so most of the people who know me here have no idea that I burn. Also, our power bills are astronomical, over the summer we can expect to pay, easily, $400-$800 (yes, you read that right), even though we've got hydroelectric dams, two of them, in our own backyard here. I just don't have the funds to set up a proper hydro grow system, plain and simple.

So, I figure that it's still a plant and all anyone's trying to do with indoor grows is mimic sunlight, and I've got all I could want for free. Having the house and property set up the way it is makes it a lot easier to grow outdoors, I just can't grow directly in the ground because of our poor soil and my damned back.

When you are ready for some recipes...just let me know, always happy to share...best part, no fat, a little sugar tho in the bread and butter jalepenos....sounds like growin some veggies might be a good thing for you. I would think you till some goodies into that red clay dirt and get yourself some dandy tomatoes. I don't have to do too much with the soil here, black as the night and fertile as can be...gotta love the midwest. Bet you could find some 10 gallon pots at a local home improvement or hardware store and grow a couple spectacular mj plants. I have a friend who grows two every summer in big pots. They get about eight feet tall and the yield is amazing. I think last year he got about a pound per plant...or at least that what he tells me, but it was a hella large amoiunt of grass. With your 7 zone up there, would think you could start an outside garden, oh, maybe mid may? Get inspired....nothing like goodies from the garden in January.....

Gurl, you are right, there's NOTHING like goodies from a garden. I'm thinking that I may as well get those seeds sprouted right now, all I have to worry about is keeping them safe from the frost while they get started, right?

Quick question, when you said you scuff up the seeds with sandpaper, does it really matter what grit, how scuffed, how much is scuffed? I was thinking you probably just make it that much easier for them to germinate, kinda like helping a chick hatch.

Just got back from a ride, GREAT day for riding and sure enough, as I head upcountry (I'm in the mountains) I see more and more bikers. Next thing I know, I'm a mile from home and the highway is polluted with 'em! GOD am I so happy I can just get on and ride, there is really nothing quite like it.

I think the scuffing helps the moisture into the seed. i read it somewhere a long time back and have been doing it ever since. I use 150 grit sand paper. Not too rough but enough to scratch up the surface. I have used seeds that I had for over eight years and only one did not grow, so thinking it is working. Spent the weekend in the yard, 65 on saturday but calling for two inches...ick...of snow tomorrow. Argh...I am so ready for warmesr weather. Thinking on putting soem tomatoes out this coming weekend. I deg a hole about a foot down and bury the tomato plant to the first set of leaves. Then put a milk jug with the lid on over the hole. As the plant grows up, keep filling in the soil until it is even with the ground level. Once warm enough and soil is all filled in, jug comes off. Gives me some of the earliest tomatoes of the year. I have tons that come in at the end of July but this way have tomoatoes from the garden in late June. Sounds like you are an avid bike rider. I used to be when I lived in alaska, but now I can barely keep my garden and yard in check. Have a busy career that takes up alot of time as well. if I could only figure out how to make a 40 hour day...lol

Gurl, my husband and I went to Lowe's yesterday and I got the Miracle Gro. Then we happened to pass by the vegetable seed displays, and my husband fucking went NUTS! He bought HELLA seeds for all kinds of shit! I had him buy a lot of different peppers because you mentioned that bread & butter jalapeno, and he loves hurting himself with jalapenos and I just discovered the not-too-sweet goodness of bread & butter pickles (after I've eaten the pickles I slice up a white onion and put that in the brine). Thing is, neither of us has grown vegetables.

So.. Jesus, I need to make a list of what we're growing. Spring has sprung here, although it's rather cool, not unseasonable.
Tomatoes -- couple varieties, no heirlooms (though we're interested in them)
Corn (he insisted on corn, he grew up in the barrio, big white guy, and he wants to grow corn, I said, "Ok!")
Lettuce -- 3 or 4 kinds if I recollect
Basil
Oregano
Peppers (too many to list at the moment, gotta get the packages)
Eggplant (I insisted, there is NOTHING as good as fresh eggplant, sliced, battered, deep-fried then sprinkled with sugar. Also, huge fan of baba ganoush here)
Zucchini
I don't remember what else.

Yes, I LOVE to ride. Back injury in '02 left me unable to do most of the things I love to do, even picking up my niece and nephew was out of the question. Housework, anything that forces me to bend over or that jars the lower spine, just killer. No more horseback riding, no more quads, docs told me no more boating -- nothing. They also wanted to cut me open and I said fuck THAT shit, you are not cutting me open.

Then we bought my husband a bike and damn if it didn't feel good. Then I noticed I felt a lot more flexible, so I started hitting him up after work every day, Hey honey, let's go for a ride! He works his ass off, though, and one day (about two weeks into it) I realized it wasn't fair what I was doing to him. The thought popped into my head, What says I can't learn to ride my own scoot? Got into a class (never rode a motorcycle before), the following week got my endorsement and I haven't looked back. Got rear-ended on the bike last September, and you'd better believe I got back on. The whole family has given me a hell of a lot of grief, especially my sisters, but they know how I am. Riding gives a special kind of feeling to me, a kind of freedom. Plus, gas has hit $3.75/gal for regular up here and the bike gets about 50mpg.

I'm probably gonna hit you up on veggie growing tips, I see the one about the milk jug, but I worry about what we're going to have to do to protect the plants. We do have deer and the dog does a pretty good job of keeping them away, but she's not on duty 24/7. We'll probably have to make a fence or something.

Happy to pass along any helpful gardening tips I can! I will even scare up the bread and butter jaleps. recipe for ya. I too suffer with the deer. I have an eight and a half foot fence around the gardens with an electric fence wire across the top. Helps keep the racoons from climbing the fence as well. Out front in my landscaping I have motion detector sprinklers that shoot a burst of water at the darned deer when they get too close. Add some chopped up irish spring and I am nearly deer proof. They will actually come up on my front stoop...bastards! I do get the pellet gun out and ping them in the rear from time to time. This is for my own satisfaction...I think.
Had a bike about 10 years ago but sold it when I moved to a more populated area. Still driving two gas guzzlers, don't think either gets over 16mpg. Not very green when it comes to gas use...working on that one...lol. You could probably get a good start on the peppers and matoes before the season starts. Takes a good six to eight weeks indoors to really get them going well, but shortens the time from planting outside to harvesting if they get some good legs under em before they go into the ground. Attached a picture of the end of last years enormous tomato harvest....68 plants total......could not look a tomato in the face until January...lol