Does watering a plantless pot with molasses water throw off microherd

gomicao

gomicao

Member
Howdy all! First post here, and technically my first solo grow (I have helped with grows all my adult life, but never oversaw my own).

First my soil mix is the clackamas coots mix (organic living soil):

1/3rd Medium Perlite,
1/3 Sphagnum Peat Moss
1/6 Malibu Compost
1/6 Wiggle Worm Pure Worm Castings
Malted Barley
Crustacean Meal
Kelp Meal
Neem Cake
Karanja Cake
Basalt
Gypsum
Oyster Shell Flour

I have done various amounts of "research" aka reading on forums and websites. I understand the rule of thumb is that PH will be buffered by any decent organic soil, and is therefore a non issue. I have seen grow diaries and posts of people who have a similarly high PH coming from their tap like I do, which is anywhere from 8.3 to 8.8 depending on when I fill a bucket or jug. They have seemed to encounter issues later in the cycle of the plant, which appeared to remedy once they started adjusting it back down to something closer to "acceptable" in normal cannabis growing. I realize there could be any other number of factors involved in what they were doing to cause problems, but I feel like if I can painlessly adjust my PH to classically good ranges, then it seems like a no brainer and I don't mind the minuscule effort to do so. In this regard I have been switching between pure absorbic acid and molasses to lower the PH of my water, with a toss in of normal high PH tap when feeling lazy (all dechlorinated mind you). Rather than get into a debate about if I NEED to ph my water... I simply wish to know if what I am doing is safe for the microlife.

I am only a week or so into my seedlings growing in solo cups (all are happy) and have 4x 10 gallon smart pots in my grow tent waiting for the time when I will transplant them. My main question is as the title suggests. Will using a light molasses water (1/2 to 1 tbsp per 5 gallons of water) to keep the soil moist and happy until transplant cause an imbalance in the microlife when there are no plants/root systems in it?

My concern comes from the knowledge about the microlife in an AACT. If you let it brew too long one life form will start to dominate the other until there is no food left for it, die off quite a bit and then its food source will become abundant again, then it will start to feed on them and the cycle repeats. Think wolves and deer or something. When the microlife hits this point in an AACT it is past its prime, hence why it is suggested to use teas within a short range of their being brewed. Will my soil do this as well without roots in it? Will the molasses feed the bacteria and cause them to overtake the soils other microlife due to there being no plants to "give them jobs" so to speak? Or is molasses water a safe and friendly way to lower my water PH while giving the beneficial organisms in my soil a snack until my plants are big enough to transplant?

Link to my grow diary:

Banana Bomb, Cement Shoes grow diary (journal) week1 by gomicao - GrowDiaries

"Organic Living Soil (Coots Mix) - Grow 1" cannabis grow diary (journal). Strains: Banana Bomb, Cement Shoes week1 by gomicao. Grow room 1, growing in . Grow conditions, techniques, grower comments.
growdiaries.com growdiaries.com
 
N

Northwood

Well-Known Member
I don't do any of that stuff, but I'll give my unqualified opinion on the use of sugar in your soil anyway ;-)

With the amount of sugar most people add in their soil (molasses diluted in water) it most likely wouldn't cause any harm in the worst case. However adding too much or at the wrong time (while your plants are actively growing in veg) can cause temporary nitrogen issues. Bacteria love sugar and will multiply like crazy depending on how much available N they can rob from your soil. Add enough sugar, and the bacteria population will explode and use up all the available N, and continue to take it as it becomes available leaving a shortage for your plants. Of course much later on, nitrifying bacteria will make the N trapped in their brother's dead bodies available at some point.

That last point I made could make the use of sugar beneficial for when you want to purposely sequester nitrogen when little or nothing is growing, otherwise when protozoa eat the bacteria, much of that NH4+ leaves your soil and is sucked out your exhaust fan rather than being saved in the soil for later use by your plants. So yes, that explosion of bacteria will eat the N, but it's like money (in this case nitrogen) in the bank. I do the same N management technique but instead employ cover crops for the purpose.
 
gomicao

gomicao

Member
Thank you very much for your reply! What cover crop(s) do you use? I am still getting used to what the plants want the most during their various stages of growth. I have recently downloaded "Teaming With Microbes" in both audio book and PDF format, but consider getting a hard copy to read along with the audio instead of pdf. Sometimes even if I might know the questions I want to ask, if the answers are beyond my understanding, it won't help me and at worst might waste someone's time when they respond. I have no much reading to do it is kind of overwhelming haha.

What might be the purpose or usefulness of doing something that will end up releasing Nitrogen later in the plants life cycle? Something like a well timed boost that will hit right before transitioning into the initial flower growth explosion? Or maybe used on pots such as mine so by the time the early veg plants get transferred over to them they will have a rich source of it? Once again thanks for your response!
 
gomicao

gomicao

Member
Another thing I noticed is the buckets I have my water in that I aerate etc, have had the small amount of molasses I used in them for several days now. I have just been letting them sit, no aeration, and it is only molasses and water. The water seems to look a little cloudy now in a way it doesn't when I first added it. When I do aerate it, it gets kinda frothy at the top, which is also something it wasn't doing before. Is it possible there is some kind of mold or bad bacteria growing in it due to the sugar? I will probably toss it to be safe, but I did use some last night... I have a feeling leaving sugar water in an open 5 gallon for several days might not be the best thing in the world?
 
N

Northwood

Well-Known Member
gomicao said:
Thank you very much for your reply! What cover crop(s) do you use?
Click to expand...
I make use of fast growing legumes as cover such as soya beans, snap beans, lentils, mung beans (I get all those from Walmart or wherever), also I raid my wife's little micro-green's cache of seeds which is where I stole my crimson clover. All these legumes will add even more N to the soil through their partnership with bacteria. For the sequestering purpose, by far the best I've used is any kind of plant in the grass family such as winter wheat, rye, annual rye, etc. Grasses grow fast, need lots of N, and have beautiful fibrous deep roots. Use whatever is most available and cheap for you. I've even harvested wild hairy vetch seeds that commonly grow here along roads and abandoned fields.

gomicao said:
What might be the purpose or usefulness of doing something that will end up releasing Nitrogen later in the plants life cycle? Something like a well timed boost that will hit right before transitioning into the initial flower growth explosion? Or maybe used on pots such as mine so by the time the early veg plants get transferred over to them they will have a rich source of it? Once again thanks for your response!
Click to expand...
For that question, I'd say yes, and yes. But there are other benefits to cover crops such as keeping the mycorrhizal fungus happy and active, and helping to build stable carbon in your soil to improve soil tilth and caption exchange capacity. Plus all the action happens in the rhizosphere, so always have a rhizosphere alive in your pot will keep the party going.
 
N

Northwood

Well-Known Member
gomicao said:
Another thing I noticed is the buckets I have my water in that I aerate etc, have had the small amount of molasses I used in them for several days now. I have just been letting them sit, no aeration, and it is only molasses and water. The water seems to look a little cloudy now in a way it doesn't when I first added it. When I do aerate it, it gets kinda frothy at the top, which is also something it wasn't doing before. Is it possible there is some kind of mold or bad bacteria growing in it due to the sugar? I will probably toss it to be safe, but I did use some last night... I have a feeling leaving sugar water in an open 5 gallon for several days might not be the best thing in the world?
Click to expand...
My experience with fermented water and sugar solutions is restricted to making beer and wine. The froth you see might be due to the action of yeast eating the sugar and producing CO2 (and alcohol). They also make the water cloudy. Bacteria would make a kind of scum on top if the water isn't agitated by a bubbler, and also cause the water to become cloudy eventually with their numbers.

I know I'm about to say something a little controversial here, but there are reasons I have no experience with fermenting teas for horticultural use as a soil amendment or inoculant. The problem is that I'm just not equipped in my home to know what species of bacteria I would be growing, or know if what I'd be adding is beneficial in any way. I do have a microscope, but I'm not a professional microbiologist. I can tell the difference between a bacteria, protozoa, and fungal hyphae, but that's about it! Considering there are about a million different species of bacteria in an ounce of fertile soil, how would I know which I was growing and whether I would be adding redundant species or introducing new ones? Additionally the conditions in bubbling sugar water are far different than what you'd find in soil, so I'd might be growing something that wouldn't survive anyway. And perhaps that might be a good thing, considering I'd have no idea what I was doing! Others will have very different opinions, and I respect that.
 
gomicao

gomicao

Member
Northwood said:
My experience with fermented water and sugar solutions is restricted to making beer and wine. The froth you see might be due to the action of yeast eating the sugar and producing CO2 (and alcohol). They also make the water cloudy. Bacteria would make a kind of scum on top if the water isn't agitated by a bubbler, and also cause the water to become cloudy eventually with their numbers.

I know I'm about to say something a little controversial here, but there are reasons I have no experience with fermenting teas for horticultural use as a soil amendment or inoculant. The problem is that I'm just not equipped in my home to know what species of bacteria I would be growing, or know if what I'd be adding is beneficial in any way. I do have a microscope, but I'm not a professional microbiologist. I can tell the difference between a bacteria, protozoa, and fungal hyphae, but that's about it! Considering there are about a million different species of bacteria in an ounce of fertile soil, how would I know which I was growing and whether I would be adding redundant species or introducing new ones? Additionally the conditions in bubbling sugar water are far different than what you'd find in soil, so I'd might be growing something that wouldn't survive anyway. And perhaps that might be a good thing, considering I'd have no idea what I was doing! Others will have very different opinions, and I respect that.
Click to expand...
Yeah I think that would come down to the folks doing potential soil tests, or tests for the prominent/relevant organisms in their tea, I feel like some have done it, but then you would only know the specifics for the particular tea they were brewing and the "suggested time" to brew then directly use it. Some people might barely be even properly aerating their teas and just adding tons of anaerobic crap too. Something like alfalfa tea is supposed to be rich in triaconatol though, as well as nitrogen I think, so that without anything else going on in the water or a top dressing could involve less guesswork I imagine. Excellent points non the less. And very interesting on cover crop. I have not gone there yet, but was thinking/hoping for something that also repels pests, but it might be better to have small pots with those kinds of complimentary plants placed around the tent I guess.
 
W

waktoo

Well-Known Member
gomicao said:
Howdy all! First post here, and technically my first solo grow (I have helped with grows all my adult life, but never oversaw my own).

First my soil mix is the clackamas coots mix (organic living soil):

1/3rd Medium Perlite,
1/3 Sphagnum Peat Moss
1/6 Malibu Compost
1/6 Wiggle Worm Pure Worm Castings
Malted Barley
Crustacean Meal
Kelp Meal
Neem Cake
Karanja Cake
Basalt
Gypsum
Oyster Shell Flour

I have done various amounts of "research" aka reading on forums and websites. I understand the rule of thumb is that PH will be buffered by any decent organic soil, and is therefore a non issue. I have seen grow diaries and posts of people who have a similarly high PH coming from their tap like I do, which is anywhere from 8.3 to 8.8 depending on when I fill a bucket or jug. They have seemed to encounter issues later in the cycle of the plant, which appeared to remedy once they started adjusting it back down to something closer to "acceptable" in normal cannabis growing. I realize there could be any other number of factors involved in what they were doing to cause problems, but I feel like if I can painlessly adjust my PH to classically good ranges, then it seems like a no brainer and I don't mind the minuscule effort to do so. In this regard I have been switching between pure absorbic acid and molasses to lower the PH of my water, with a toss in of normal high PH tap when feeling lazy (all dechlorinated mind you). Rather than get into a debate about if I NEED to ph my water... I simply wish to know if what I am doing is safe for the microlife.

I am only a week or so into my seedlings growing in solo cups (all are happy) and have 4x 10 gallon smart pots in my grow tent waiting for the time when I will transplant them. My main question is as the title suggests. Will using a light molasses water (1/2 to 1 tbsp per 5 gallons of water) to keep the soil moist and happy until transplant cause an imbalance in the microlife when there are no plants/root systems in it?

My concern comes from the knowledge about the microlife in an AACT. If you let it brew too long one life form will start to dominate the other until there is no food left for it, die off quite a bit and then its food source will become abundant again, then it will start to feed on them and the cycle repeats. Think wolves and deer or something. When the microlife hits this point in an AACT it is past its prime, hence why it is suggested to use teas within a short range of their being brewed. Will my soil do this as well without roots in it? Will the molasses feed the bacteria and cause them to overtake the soils other microlife due to there being no plants to "give them jobs" so to speak? Or is molasses water a safe and friendly way to lower my water PH while giving the beneficial organisms in my soil a snack until my plants are big enough to transplant?

Link to my grow diary:

Banana Bomb, Cement Shoes grow diary (journal) week1 by gomicao - GrowDiaries

"Organic Living Soil (Coots Mix) - Grow 1" cannabis grow diary (journal). Strains: Banana Bomb, Cement Shoes week1 by gomicao. Grow room 1, growing in . Grow conditions, techniques, grower comments.
growdiaries.com growdiaries.com
Click to expand...
You need to neutralize the alkalinity in your irrigation water. While the hydrogen ion concentration of the irrigation water has very little affect on the pH of the soil substrate, the alkalinity in the irrigation water will drive the soil pH up over time, rendering Ca and trace elements unavailable. It doesn't matter if you're growing in "organic" soil or not.

ag.umass.edu

Water Quality: pH and Alkalinity

Recently, some growers have expressed concern about the "high pH" of their irrigation water and its potential adverse effects on plants. The purpose of this article is to allay some of these concerns by pointing out the difference between "high pH" and "high alkalinity". Alkalinity and pH are...
ag.umass.edu ag.umass.edu

You should get you irrigation water tested. While alkalinity is easy enough to deal with, sometimes water with a pH profile like yours comes with other undesirable dissolved solids in it as well. Do you have a TDS tester?

I'm including a link to a past post that I made concerning water pH. I would suggest using citric acid to neutralize the alkalinity in your water, as it adds nothing in the way plant usable nutrients (like phosphates or sulfates). Without an actual test, you'll have to do some titration experiments to find the right amount of citric acid to use to fully neutralize the alkalinity in your irrigation water. It will not affect the health of the microbes in your soil. If you are unable to discern how to accurately titrate your water, I'll walk you through it.

Water ph keeps rising.

Hi. Any body tested ph levels after water has been sitting for over 24hrs? I’ve set up a tank system above my plants and I’m using Blumat drippers to feed organic Sohum living soil with just ph’d butt water as recommended by Sohum. The problem I’m having is that after adjusting the water in the...
www.rollitup.org
 
gomicao

gomicao

Member
waktoo said:
You need to neutralize the alkalinity in your irrigation water. While the hydrogen ion concentration of the irrigation water has very little affect on the pH of the soil substrate, the alkalinity in the irrigation water will drive the soil pH up over time, rendering Ca and trace elements unavailable. It doesn't matter if you're growing in "organic" soil or not.

ag.umass.edu

Water Quality: pH and Alkalinity

Recently, some growers have expressed concern about the "high pH" of their irrigation water and its potential adverse effects on plants. The purpose of this article is to allay some of these concerns by pointing out the difference between "high pH" and "high alkalinity". Alkalinity and pH are...
ag.umass.edu ag.umass.edu

You should get you irrigation water tested. While alkalinity is easy enough to deal with, sometimes water with a pH profile like yours comes with other undesirable dissolved solids in it as well. Do you have a TDS tester?

I'm including a link to a past post that I made concerning water pH. I would suggest using citric acid to neutralize the alkalinity in your water, as it adds nothing in the way plant usable nutrients (like phosphates or sulfates). Without an actual test, you'll have to do some titration experiments to find the right amount of citric acid to use to fully neutralize the alkalinity in your irrigation water. It will not affect the health of the microbes in your soil. If you are unable to discern how to accurately titrate your water, I'll walk you through it.

Water ph keeps rising.

Hi. Any body tested ph levels after water has been sitting for over 24hrs? I’ve set up a tank system above my plants and I’m using Blumat drippers to feed organic Sohum living soil with just ph’d butt water as recommended by Sohum. The problem I’m having is that after adjusting the water in the...
www.rollitup.org
Click to expand...
Do you feel citric acid is preferable to absorbic acid, or are both fairly equal to use? I was reading that they have a swing where it will drop for a while but then creep back up over the course of something like 24 hours maybe, so in that regard it would be up to adding some and waiting a day or two to see where it sits. I have used absorbic acid already previous to mixing up a couple buckets of rather light molasses water. I think instructions say 1/2tbsp per gallon is medium dose, I use that or a smidge more for 5 gallons. If citric acid truly won't harm any of the life in the soil, or effect anything else but the water PH, then that would be great. I was worried when using absorbic acid that it might affect them somehow. The great thing about absorbic acid was dechlorination of the tap water along with the adjusting PH to where I want it. Does citric acid also dechlorinate?
 
S

Sup Im BirDy

Well-Known Member
gomicao said:
Howdy all! First post here, and technically my first solo grow (I have helped with grows all my adult life, but never oversaw my own).

First my soil mix is the clackamas coots mix (organic living soil):

1/3rd Medium Perlite,
1/3 Sphagnum Peat Moss
1/6 Malibu Compost
1/6 Wiggle Worm Pure Worm Castings
Malted Barley
Crustacean Meal
Kelp Meal
Neem Cake
Karanja Cake
Basalt
Gypsum
Oyster Shell Flour

I have done various amounts of "research" aka reading on forums and websites. I understand the rule of thumb is that PH will be buffered by any decent organic soil, and is therefore a non issue. I have seen grow diaries and posts of people who have a similarly high PH coming from their tap like I do, which is anywhere from 8.3 to 8.8 depending on when I fill a bucket or jug. They have seemed to encounter issues later in the cycle of the plant, which appeared to remedy once they started adjusting it back down to something closer to "acceptable" in normal cannabis growing. I realize there could be any other number of factors involved in what they were doing to cause problems, but I feel like if I can painlessly adjust my PH to classically good ranges, then it seems like a no brainer and I don't mind the minuscule effort to do so. In this regard I have been switching between pure absorbic acid and molasses to lower the PH of my water, with a toss in of normal high PH tap when feeling lazy (all dechlorinated mind you). Rather than get into a debate about if I NEED to ph my water... I simply wish to know if what I am doing is safe for the microlife.

I am only a week or so into my seedlings growing in solo cups (all are happy) and have 4x 10 gallon smart pots in my grow tent waiting for the time when I will transplant them. My main question is as the title suggests. Will using a light molasses water (1/2 to 1 tbsp per 5 gallons of water) to keep the soil moist and happy until transplant cause an imbalance in the microlife when there are no plants/root systems in it?

My concern comes from the knowledge about the microlife in an AACT. If you let it brew too long one life form will start to dominate the other until there is no food left for it, die off quite a bit and then its food source will become abundant again, then it will start to feed on them and the cycle repeats. Think wolves and deer or something. When the microlife hits this point in an AACT it is past its prime, hence why it is suggested to use teas within a short range of their being brewed. Will my soil do this as well without roots in it? Will the molasses feed the bacteria and cause them to overtake the soils other microlife due to there being no plants to "give them jobs" so to speak? Or is molasses water a safe and friendly way to lower my water PH while giving the beneficial organisms in my soil a snack until my plants are big enough to transplant?

Link to my grow diary:

Banana Bomb, Cement Shoes grow diary (journal) week1 by gomicao - GrowDiaries

"Organic Living Soil (Coots Mix) - Grow 1" cannabis grow diary (journal). Strains: Banana Bomb, Cement Shoes week1 by gomicao. Grow room 1, growing in . Grow conditions, techniques, grower comments.
growdiaries.com growdiaries.com
Click to expand...
I know molasses feeds the microbes which helps them break down the nutes. But imo I would get a supplement called recharge and use that for them. It is a amendment that has molasses in it along with beneficial bacteria and microbes and kelp. For lowering the ph I’d either get some lemon water in there, add some humic acid to the soil or elemental sulfur
 
gomicao

gomicao

Member
I have Kelp meal, alfalfa meal, the molasses, fish hydrolysate, and soon worm castings. I figure brewing a tea with those things (not specifically all at once, or alternating depending on when in the plants life cycle) should cover the kind of thing that you are speaking of. They probably have another week or two before I transplant them over to their forever homes from the solo cups they are in. ATM my main job/concern is keeping the soil filled smart pots at the right moisture/dryness ratio to keep microlife balanced and happy by the time the plants actually go in them.

I am looking into researching if absorbic acid (Vitamin C) will essentially work the same as citric acid for my PH, or if absorbic being a vitamin, will still potentially alter things for the worse somehow. I have read things stating that the plants and or whatever else actually should have no problems with it maybe even benefit, but if citric acid is definitely a more "neutral" thing that would be useful. That is the biggest deal for me. Just don't want to use something and have it hurt the life in the soil. Vitamin C also dechlorinates water which can be useful if you don't have time to let it sit around, or need a spray bottle really fast. I can't seem to find much from a quick google search in regards to if citric acid performs the same function as most entries come back with Vit C. I am only using the molasses atm to lower PH because I worried using absorbic acid every time could hurt the soil somehow, and maybe even the plants once they are in it. Just couldn't seem to find an answer beyond "strangers on a forum" saying it wouldn't and others saying it could LOL.

I will probably rotate pots between grows, and when I reamend the soil in the unused pots, I feel like the amendments will help balance the PH out, however at the time I can look into what I may or may not need to do with a soil test. Ideally I would test the soil a week after I mixed it (so fresh and untouched) and then after a round of plants so see what was used up and how my water/teas may or may not have effected it. I don't know if soil tests can also determine the health of the micro life or not, but compost teas should help add back any life I need to it.
 
gomicao

gomicao

Member
I just realized that the alkalinity of my water is very low, so despite being around 8 PH, short of any additives I put in that might change the alkaline aspect, it will most likely adjust to the soil, not the soil adjusting to it. It is very possible that some of the people I saw mention a high PH that resulted in problems could have also had a highly alkaline water which messed with the soil kept the water high. I may just try not altering it if I can get away with it, so long as ACT's or nutrient teas are low in alkalinity as well... Merp/Derp
 
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