skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
cooperation... and love.
Do You Support The "Occupy"Protests?
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skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
you find those two concepts difficult to grasp? Money is the killer of both cooperation and of love, it replaces them both. each only becomes a part of money as it engulfs everything. the more money you get the higher your status, even an ugly man can get a good woman if he has enough cash. she may even fool herself that she loves him for a while, but we all know the truth. we also only cooperate in as much as we can profit monetarily from that cooperation. we rarely do things to be nice, it takes a concerted effort. Unless there's money involved of course.
take away money, make everybody work if they want to. people won't stop doing what they love... before money came along people got along with co-operation and love for their fellow man. We need to get that back with a modern twist, you can't read about the future in history books, doing that only keeps us reliving the past mistakes.
take away money, make everybody work if they want to. people won't stop doing what they love... before money came along people got along with co-operation and love for their fellow man. We need to get that back with a modern twist, you can't read about the future in history books, doing that only keeps us reliving the past mistakes.
laserbrn
Well-Known Member
I was going to post in response to this, but I realize it's completely unnecessary. Anyone that can read what you wrote can see how dopey it is.
Your take on history books is as stupid as they come. You don't read about the future in history books, but ignoring them ENSURES that history is repeated.
I've actually decided to go a different way with this...I have to quote you in my signature. I haven't seen anything this "sig" worthy in a long time....lol.
Your take on history books is as stupid as they come. You don't read about the future in history books, but ignoring them ENSURES that history is repeated.
I've actually decided to go a different way with this...I have to quote you in my signature. I haven't seen anything this "sig" worthy in a long time....lol.
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
You were going to post a response but failed, is more apt.
History is repeated time and time again, because it is written by those in power. the history you've read and been taught is not real history, it is a fiction based on loose facts and then spoon fed to the masses to make us out to be the good guys. Even the atomic bombing of japan is justified with bullshit.
You're fine though, don't worry about it... you got everything you need already. capitalism works for you, you're not going to starve to death so fuck the rest of them, right.
laserbrn
Well-Known Member
mccumcumber
Well-Known Member
Dude this super conspiracy bullshit that you spewin out about history book is why no one takes occupy seriously. When it first started even I considered joining. I do think it's bullshit that huge corps control everything, but your super conspiracy ideas illustrate why no one who takes themselves seriously would associate with it. Yes the government loves corps, wanna know why? Cause they get shit tons of dough from taxes, even if the corps dodge a fair amount of them they still pay loads more than you or I could ever.
And before you go on about GE it is true that they didnt pay their 2010 taxes, they payed their 2009 taxes in full and are prolly gonna pay their 2010 taxes sometime soon. Look into corporate tax law to see how it's possible.
And before you go on about GE it is true that they didnt pay their 2010 taxes, they payed their 2009 taxes in full and are prolly gonna pay their 2010 taxes sometime soon. Look into corporate tax law to see how it's possible.
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
failed again, I see. LOL
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
Nobody? 2 people makes nobody? wtf? LOL. Everybody should know that the victors of any war get to write the history books. Standard procedure. IT's not a super conspiracy but a recognised truth.
I don't give a fuck about the stupid protests or the stupid people taking part in them. They are selfish and have selfish motives for the most part. I'm not going to leave one devil to link up with another. I also don't care for conspiracy theories... what i want to see is equality in the entire world.
GE? who is GE? I don't give a fuck about taxes. Did you read the part where i said money is the root of all evil? I don't care asbout any of this petty bullshit, we're not suffering int his country at all. I'm concerned only about the bigger picture.
mccumcumber
Well-Known Member
GE = general electric.
Equality, sadly, will never exist in the world so long as there is the idea of power. Hominids, especially homo sapiens, as a survival mechanism, feel safer with more power. Money is the modern day measure of your power. Meaning how much cash you got is equal to the power you have. Marx had the right idea, however, when countries "executed communism" they weren't actually communist. They were just tyrannies claiming to be communist, and since actual communism does not vibe well with capitalism the US decided that they were A OK with the pseudo communism leaders claiming that they were communist countries. Now even the word communism has negative connotation and everyone just starts claiming: "It'll never work!!!"
I actually read your posts this time around, and I'm sorry for initially coming off as a douche. As far as the history books are concerned, you can actually find multiple interpretations of history dating back to the 1600s. I remember when I was learning European history, the so called "grievances" that the colonists were facing was a load of horse shit. They were being taxed at 1/12 the rate of the LOWEST taxes in all of Europe. Basically the early Americans were just a bunch of assholes who wanted to get rich off of the resources in the land that they thought was theirs. The sad part about history is that you don't actually find out what really happens until you go to college or spend a whole lot of time in your library. At least that is true in the US, I don't know about other countries. Another funny story is how Californians got their land, but I'll save that for another time.
Equality, sadly, will never exist in the world so long as there is the idea of power. Hominids, especially homo sapiens, as a survival mechanism, feel safer with more power. Money is the modern day measure of your power. Meaning how much cash you got is equal to the power you have. Marx had the right idea, however, when countries "executed communism" they weren't actually communist. They were just tyrannies claiming to be communist, and since actual communism does not vibe well with capitalism the US decided that they were A OK with the pseudo communism leaders claiming that they were communist countries. Now even the word communism has negative connotation and everyone just starts claiming: "It'll never work!!!"
I actually read your posts this time around, and I'm sorry for initially coming off as a douche. As far as the history books are concerned, you can actually find multiple interpretations of history dating back to the 1600s. I remember when I was learning European history, the so called "grievances" that the colonists were facing was a load of horse shit. They were being taxed at 1/12 the rate of the LOWEST taxes in all of Europe. Basically the early Americans were just a bunch of assholes who wanted to get rich off of the resources in the land that they thought was theirs. The sad part about history is that you don't actually find out what really happens until you go to college or spend a whole lot of time in your library. At least that is true in the US, I don't know about other countries. Another funny story is how Californians got their land, but I'll save that for another time.
laserbrn
Well-Known Member
The early settlers here weren't upset about the tax rate, they were upset about a lack of representation. It wasn't just the RATE, it's the principle of the matter. Can you imagine paying taxes to a far off country in which you had no representation? Eek, that war was an eventuality.
Communism and Tyranny will ALWAYS go hand in hand. The fundamental problem is not solved by simply saying that Marx's ideal for communism has never been executed. The problem remains the same...the motivator. If it's not greed, it has to be an iron fist. "Love and cooperation" will get nothing done and is very hard to say without laughing.
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
I believe humans are a product of their environment, change the environment and you change the man. The notion of power only comes from inequality, if everybody was equal there would be no power to seek.
we can still have leaders, but these leaders should just be the same as somebody that works in a factory. we all should work together, fairly. This includes working with the africans and any other 3rd world nation to bring stability. we have food places here that chuck good food in the bin, that's how much value it really has. yet millions of africans are going to starve to death.
they don't need money, money is the cause of all of this, they just need food and stability. we could do that if we wanted to. however, it suits us to keep them there, to keep everybody where they are... for us as western citizens we can live comfortably in denial, maybe give a few bucks a month to charity to make ourselves feel better, well, i've done my bit. guilt gone.
history is changed to suit the agenda of those in power... we really should second guess everything we are told as standard.
laserbrn
Well-Known Member
What a noble notion my friend...but completely unrealistic. The simple fact is that people aren't going to spend the first 30 years of their lives training to be a doctor when the outcome would be the same if they were pot hole diggers or did NOTHING.
The percentage of people that would do NOTHING is much higher than you give it credit for. The Welfare state here in the US is a prime example. Many people have decided that although they can't live "equally" with those that are working, they can get by well enough and would rather not do a damned thing with their lives.
Getting up and going to work everyday is a sacrifice. Each person is born with a limited number of hours, days, weeks, and years in their lives. Sacrificing that time, those hours, weeks and years doesn't sound appealing just naturally. The trade off is that someone else will be sacrificing their time to accomplish goals that you need accomplished as well. They way that we regulate this activity SHOULD be through the free market although it's generally messed with quite a bit. If you want to go back to living in tribes and using social pressure to ensure that everyone works, that's your prerogative, but the rest of the civilized world would prefer to go ahead and continue on forward. Do we need reform, absolutely. Is collectivism the answer? Absolutely not.
The percentage of people that would do NOTHING is much higher than you give it credit for. The Welfare state here in the US is a prime example. Many people have decided that although they can't live "equally" with those that are working, they can get by well enough and would rather not do a damned thing with their lives.
Getting up and going to work everyday is a sacrifice. Each person is born with a limited number of hours, days, weeks, and years in their lives. Sacrificing that time, those hours, weeks and years doesn't sound appealing just naturally. The trade off is that someone else will be sacrificing their time to accomplish goals that you need accomplished as well. They way that we regulate this activity SHOULD be through the free market although it's generally messed with quite a bit. If you want to go back to living in tribes and using social pressure to ensure that everyone works, that's your prerogative, but the rest of the civilized world would prefer to go ahead and continue on forward. Do we need reform, absolutely. Is collectivism the answer? Absolutely not.
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
You clearly are so wrapped up in your country's bullshit you're never going to see clearly. The war of independence was about money, pure and simple... just like every other war. research some real history instead of trying to remmeber what they taught you in pre-school.
LOL... because you say it it makes it true? You think we're not under tyranny now? You're clearly still under 30, either that or you're just not very well read.
wtf? How do you know the fundamental problem would not be solved if Marx's ideal was realised? I'm sure Marx's ideal is for true equality, if that ideal is realised what is the fundamental problem? Way i see it at the moment is people like you are the fundamental problem in this society.
Love and cooperation works where i'm from. With the people i associate with, respect plays a large part in survival. doesn't matter how much money you have. We love each other, and respect the struggle... it's only the man and slave camps (you probably call them prisons) that drive a wedge into that. The rich will soon lose their power, no getting away from it. either they give it away or it will be stripped from them.
it's not about money, it's about equality. 1/5th of the world lives in total poverty, starving... while the top 200 people in the world eat all the metaphorical food. that will all soon be a dirty ghistorical secret from the past.
the human race is meant to be equal.
laserbrn
Well-Known Member
You clearly don't know anything about me. I'm over the age of 30 and plenty well read. You are putting "objectives" before "results". What is the point in restating the objectives of system that clearly can't achieve them? Where do you see the most social injustice in the world? Is in places where people have freedom or places where collectivism rules supreme?
Cuba?
North Korea?
The former Soviet Union?
China? (although becoming more free and of course more prosperous, but who wants to pay any attention to that correlation, right?)
Vietnam?
Loas?
I think what's clear is that regardless of where you are currently from, you haven't travelled the world and haven't seen what collectivism looks like. You are ignoring the fact that there has to be a system to FEED all of the people. All people had a lower standard of living and most lived in poverty (by todays standards) prior to allowing individuals the freedom to determine their own will.
You still haven't answered what seems like a basic question. What is the motivation? What makes people get up and go do work? What makes somebody study for 15 years to become a doctor, a lawyer, an engineer, etc.? If you are proposing that EVERYONE go back to living in poverty, I agree, that can be achieved using your method.
If everyone was okay with taking a whirlwind trip back to the stone age, you're right, it could probably work.
How in your utopian society is it determine who does what?
Cuba?
North Korea?
The former Soviet Union?
China? (although becoming more free and of course more prosperous, but who wants to pay any attention to that correlation, right?)
Vietnam?
Loas?
I think what's clear is that regardless of where you are currently from, you haven't travelled the world and haven't seen what collectivism looks like. You are ignoring the fact that there has to be a system to FEED all of the people. All people had a lower standard of living and most lived in poverty (by todays standards) prior to allowing individuals the freedom to determine their own will.
You still haven't answered what seems like a basic question. What is the motivation? What makes people get up and go do work? What makes somebody study for 15 years to become a doctor, a lawyer, an engineer, etc.? If you are proposing that EVERYONE go back to living in poverty, I agree, that can be achieved using your method.
If everyone was okay with taking a whirlwind trip back to the stone age, you're right, it could probably work.
How in your utopian society is it determine who does what?
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
Your basing these ideas on preconceived notions of what human beings are like. I'm assuming you're liking people to yourself. People will still want to be doctors because that is what they will want to do. It's what they are passionate about, there will still be plenty of doctors. maybe even more than we have now, lots of doctors, more than enough to go around. No more queues, no more hospital waiting lists. witht he freedom to be anyhting you want, people would just choose what they wanted to study. if they want to do nothing let them... how many would prefer to do nothing? if you're one of them, please don't project your own personality onto everybody. In fact, if you are one of them you would be a part of a very small percentage.
Complete bullshit. the welfare figures simply show how bad employability has gotten in our countries. There are not enough jobs for everybody... and the jobs that are available are simply derogatory in pay. work for nothing. then you have your slave camps in the US, the prison system. lock people up and use them as cheap labour, create more crimes, build more prisons, rich guy can buy a yacht, yes masser. How dare you look down on people and call them scroungers just because you happen to have a good job, brought up by a good family... this makes you better than the next man? i'll speak for all of those people you want to put down, all day long. I've only got love for those people and how they struggle every day in this shitty, by-design, society.
A sacrifice for a selfish person like yourself maybe. i'm talking about moving forward not backwards... we have the technology to do so much more than we do right now. collectivism is the only answer, although putting a name on things is not a good thing to do as it insists on a pre-conceived model. we need to create a new world... if we don't then we're fucked, doomed to repeat that same sugar-coated hsitory over and over again.
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
People will determine who does what.... who do you think does it now?
I can see that you cannot visualise anyhting other than that which you have visualised already... you lack imagination. clearly not a leader. Those that lead will lead naturally, but you all get the same. nobody owns a car, you simply get into any car and drive it. if we all woprked together without money the possibilities are endless. I honestly do understand your difficulty in picturing this. people would natutrally cooperate with each other. all it takes is one person to get the ball rolling.
like when places get snowed out... you ever seen a community pull together to clear that snow? or clean up afetr a catastrophe? it's the same thing. we don't need money or status.
laserbrn
Well-Known Member
You are missing a key element. Why would we want an excessive number of doctors? Seriously....this is the stupidest conversation I have been involved in for a long time. How do we know how many doctors we need? How do we encourage more to become doctors if there is a shortage? Who is going to determine who is going to do what? You propose people just do "whatever they love"? Aside from the obvious problem that there won't be too many trash people around anymore. Not too many people breaking their backs working doing anything overly intensive, but more importantly we couldn't possibly have the right distribution of people doing the jobs that need to be done. The free market allows the system to regulate itself. If there is an abundance of qualified doctors, the pay goes down and other professions are more appealing. Professions that have shortages become very appealing as the pay is much higher. In your Utopia how will it be determined who is going to do what? Not a personal level guy, on a global level (since that seems to be your ultimate goal). Who is going to determine how many cars will be produced? Who will decide how many different styles of cars there would be? I guess people wouldn't really have the freedom to choose if they like car A or car B they will have to drive whatever they are told right?
What a cheap trick acting as though I look down on people on Welfare and/or Disability. I don't look down on the people, I look down on the system. If you create a hole, people will fall into it.
Haha, unemployment is below 9%, yet 35% of the wages paid in the country were to welfare recipients. These #'s don't include unemployment benefits paid. I'm only talking about disability and welfare. I don't believe that 35% of the population is disabled and CAN'T work, a great # of them have figured out that they don't have to.
Why do we have the technology to do much more than we are doing right now? Do you think that we would have all of these great technologies if our only goal was to live EQUALLY through "love and cooperation"? Collectivism has been tried many, many, many times throughout history, yet it was only when men were allowed to be free and choose for themselves that we had the emergence of these great technologies. The past 100 years have seen the advancement of all of these great technologies and yes, through greed. Greed, greedy people and their money....those bastards. lol.
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
If we had lots of doctors then people could work whenever they wanted to. you don't have a 9-5 job but are called through computer systems, the internet. communicated with. why wouldn't people collect trash? if you get the saem as a doctor then why would it bother you to pick up some trash? obviously it would bother you... don't lie now, you give yourself away with what you write. to you collecting trash is obviously beneath you, but to somebody with nothing else to do then so be it. no hating if a person doesn't want to work and i guarantee sooner or later they will just do it. machines can be built to collect rubbish anyway, we just need people to maintain those machines. training free as money does not exist. everybody gets the same. everybody. no exceptions.
cars, there would be no need for brands of cars... just cars. you don't get forced on a car, they're parked outside, maybe even computerised so they drive themselves. you just call for a car and it comes.
Nota cheap trick at all. that's what yuou think. you told me. i've seen that bigotry before. People don't work because they don't want menial pay, to break their backs and get nowhere for it. people are just waking up.
Labelling things does not mean that is what i'm suggesting. yes we should work collectively, one could argue that we do that now too. we just do it for different motives. change the motives... one day you will get it.
skunkushybrid01
Well-Known Member
oh, and i apologise for getting a little heated and insulting you.