Do you belive in UFO's?

mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
newworldicon said:
You wouldn't be doing my research, I've done it already. It's for you to do, not too hard a task, all you have to do is google and read. You can try all you want with the cyber crap of " You make the claim so post the info" but I don't buy into it. Essentially you are arguing about who takes the time to post a link...ridiculous frankly.
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It's not cyber crap, it's basic rules of debate and they are there for a reason. If you want to convince me of something, then it is up to you to provide a compelling argument. Telling me to do web searches for information that supports your argument is just a fail. I have no desire to waste my time chasing down stories that you claim exists. It's not like this is my first rodeo. I have seen the so-called "evidence" for years. There's always someone out there claiming to have found implants or whatever and it's always been lacking. If YOU find something credible, and YOU want to convince others that it is real, then YOU can put your evidence right here and not do this bullshit song and dance that everyone else here reading should be looking for the support for your claims.
By the way the research and info does not prove that implants or chips are alien but it conclusively proves they are there. This absence however does not disprove anything....as an common example of this train of thought we thought the earth was flat at some point.
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A video proves almost nothing without independent verification. In case you are unaware, there is a long history of people faking evidence. The fact that you are convinced by something does not conclusively prove shit. No one is claiming absence disproves anything but absent compelling evidence, I find no reason to accept any claim.
Your 'flat earth' argument is as stupid now as it is when creationists use it. People didn't believe in a flat earth because of critical observation and rational thought. They believed in a flat earth prior to the use of critical thought. The ancient Greeks knew the earth was spherical and even measured it's circumference to a remarkable degree.
I think it's also apt at this point to point out that you seem to come across as though I am an absolute believer and you need to refute me and fight your view to hell and gone, relax, it's a conversation not an argument!
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Quit trying to figure out what I think about you and concentrate on your argument, that so far is weak and unconvincing. I have no idea, nor do I care what you believe.
Believe me when I say that I want un-refutable evidence as much as anyone,
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I don't even need unrefutable, I only need something that passes the sniff test. I have looked at a lot of this stuff over the last 20 years or so and still remain a skeptic.
but the fact remains that without having an open mind you will never get closer to the truth. As of right now I think it's a human deception meant for humans to cloak a possible negative alien existence, but who knows..
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An open mind does not require one to accept evidence uncritically. Your canard of implying skeptics have closed minds has been debunked too many times to count.
PS. If you took the time to check out Dr. Leir videos you can actually see the entire process under the knife including the scans, x-rays and operation, the chips seem to melt or dissolve leaving just a black type of dust. Weird but at the very least interesting. Although this is not the norm, rather an anomaly. What's interesting is any recovered chips are usually untraceable to a known manufacturer which only serves to open more questions.
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I will check out whatever evidence you would like to provide but as I said, I'm not going to go chasing it down.
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Dr Leir has been spouting this stuff off since the mid 90's, yet somehow has never produced a detailed analysis of any object. Dr Leir is a foot doctor with an affinity for UFO's and alien lore, and loves to sell books. Other podiatrists find foreign objects in the feet and ankles, they just don't have any reason to suspect them to be alien. Dr Leir even has a hard time convincing believers.

Believers turn into sceptics after conference
"Even the true believers at a UFO conference in Rotorua were sceptical after a keynote speaker's presentation. Leir's information was overly technical and his video finished before any details could be seen, leaving delegates questioning the doctor's motives. He declined all interviews. Delegates told The Daily Post they were not convinced by his presentation."
 
W

wawa007

Member
mindphuk said:
Hey, if you have some evidence of extraterrestrial nano chips implanted in people, go ahead and present them. You aren't saying shit that is opinion, you made some flat out claims. Learn the difference and back up what you said instead of this bullshit hit and run post then avoid discussion because it is 'an opinion' and you're not 'here to argue.'
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there's a lot of proof by doctors examining abductee's but u would have to go into more depth with that , i'm not here to change ur opinion , and i'm not no UFO researcher who would collect documents and stuff , i am just someone who is interested in UFO's phenomenon and i reed a lot that's all
 
newworldicon

newworldicon

Well-Known Member
mindphuk said:
It's not cyber crap, it's basic rules of debate and they are there for a reason. If you want to convince me of something, then it is up to you to provide a compelling argument. Telling me to do web searches for information that supports your argument is just a fail. I have no desire to waste my time chasing down stories that you claim exists. It's not like this is my first rodeo. I have seen the so-called "evidence" for years. There's always someone out there claiming to have found implants or whatever and it's always been lacking. If YOU find something credible, and YOU want to convince others that it is real, then YOU can put your evidence right here and not do this bullshit song and dance that everyone else here reading should be looking for the support for your claims.
A video proves almost nothing without independent verification. In case you are unaware, there is a long history of people faking evidence. The fact that you are convinced by something does not conclusively prove shit. No one is claiming absence disproves anything but absent compelling evidence, I find no reason to accept any claim.
Your 'flat earth' argument is as stupid now as it is when creationists use it. People didn't believe in a flat earth because of critical observation and rational thought. They believed in a flat earth prior to the use of critical thought. The ancient Greeks knew the earth was spherical and even measured it's circumference to a remarkable degree.
Quit trying to figure out what I think about you and concentrate on your argument, that so far is weak and unconvincing. I have no idea, nor do I care what you believe.
I don't even need unrefutable, I only need something that passes the sniff test. I have looked at a lot of this stuff over the last 20 years or so and still remain a skeptic.
An open mind does not require one to accept evidence uncritically. Your canard of implying skeptics have closed minds has been debunked too many times to count.
I will check out whatever evidence you would like to provide but as I said, I'm not going to go chasing it down.
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At what point did you decide I was trying to "convince" you of anything????? I have stated this equivocally from the start yet you seem to bang on that I am a believer and I must show you evidence. Where was that stated, I am waiting for you to point that out.

You say you don't require absolute evidence just a sniff of it so define what would be enough of a sniff to think otherwise, as far as I am concerned there are enough cases in history to at the very least ask the question. I don't buy the idea that it's all man made disinformation, I certainly think that some of it is but there are too many anomalies to discredit them. And before you ask me to list them, your twenty or so years of research would have covered this.

What this boils down to is what your definition of enough is, are you more discerning than I in what is enough to ask the question, isn't the mere fact that we are discussing this is enough?

Please answer me why you have not even bothered to ask me further questions on what I witnessed on the 24 April 2011 in my local park, you seem interested enough on the subject to want to find answers?

Example of possible ufo: The Rendlesham forest incident, lets discuss that incident, are you familiar with it? If you have 20 years of research experience you should be familiar with it, explain to me how it is undoubtedly a hoax? Otherwise it is plausible.
 
newworldicon

newworldicon

Well-Known Member
Heisenberg said:
Dr Leir has been spouting this stuff off since the mid 90's, yet somehow has never produced a detailed analysis of any object. Dr Leir is a foot doctor with an affinity for UFO's and alien lore, and loves to sell books. Other podiatrists find foreign objects in the feet and ankles, they just don't have any reason to suspect them to be alien. Dr Leir even has a hard time convincing believers.

Believers turn into sceptics after conference
"Even the true believers at a UFO conference in Rotorua were sceptical after a keynote speaker's presentation. Leir's information was overly technical and his video finished before any details could be seen, leaving delegates questioning the doctor's motives. He declined all interviews. Delegates told The Daily Post they were not convinced by his presentation."
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I don't like having to repeat myself, I also find his work lacking in absolute evidence but why does nobody decide to try and do more research into his claims to prove him right or wrong, it's not enough to say it's BS because a group of people find it lacking. Who are they and what are their motives, everyone has an agenda and we cannot ever know what that is.
 
newworldicon

newworldicon

Well-Known Member
This does not prove the existence of aliens but it also does not prove it was man made, show me the evidence this was anything other than extraterrestrial and I will dismiss it, until then it is but another example of the possibility....

[video=youtube;suJlDRoahLA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suJlDRoahLA[/video]

What is your opinion of these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5RDN308Dn0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxIq2ptv1N8

Rods....whilst it is fanciful to assume they are "alien" in origin as they could simply be an earthly species we just aren't very aware of currently, they could just as well be alien, who knows....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CySRM9_qNNw&feature=related

Is this enough to start with to ignite a proper discussion or is this not sniffable for you?

I'd like a discussion not an argument on who's right or wrong.
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
That was a fun one to watch, but a little digging suggests even the UFO community doesn't buy it.

http://news.discovery.com/space/jerusalem-ufo-video-case-closed-110331.html

"A few days ago, the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON), one of the oldest, largest, and most respected UFO investigation organizations in the world, announced their findings about the Jerusalem UFO. MUFON, though hardly a hard-line skeptical organization, has a stable of experts they draw upon for analysis."


According to a statement, "MUFON's chief Photo and Video Analyst, Mr. Marc Dantonio, stated 'I firmly believe that the UFO was not real, for many reasons...this video and the other Jerusalem UFO Videos are in my opinion hoaxes."

Robert Sheaffer, a longtime UFO investigator and author of the Bad UFOs blog commented, "the original Jerusalem UFO has now been definitely shown to be a hoax. Effects of the video processing software are clearly seen. The hoaxer used Motion Tile effects with edge mirroring to introduce camera shake into the video. You can see the mirroring effects along the edge of the video. This proves that the video did not go directly from the camera to YouTube, that it made a stop in between inside a sophisticated video editing software suite. Once you start editing it like that, a skilled hoaxer can put practically anything in it."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501465_162-20031199-501465.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/06/02/nasa-ufos-explained/

"Anyway, the videos usually makes me laugh, because the "UFOs" in question are just ice particles on the Shuttle dislodged when they fire the maneuvering jets. And when they fire the jets again, the expanding plume of gas makes the particles change direction and accelerate away. It’s really that simple, yet there are elaborate conspiracy theories created to say these are alien spacecraft, and lots of people buy into it.
I saw a presentation by an astronaut a few years ago debunking the claims of a UFO guy who swore up and down that these particles were spaceships. The astronaut — my friend the late Ron Parise — showed that the "UFOs" also seemed to change directions right after the vernier jets fired. The UFO guy said that Shuttle rockets are hugely powerful and it’s silly to think that was the cause; they’d move the Shuttle around! But as Ron points out, the jets are very gentle, designed to slowly and carefully change the Shuttle’s attitude — its pitch, yaw, and roll relative to Earth. Those generate only a few pounds of thrust, enough to slow the Shuttle’s attitude drift, for example.
This was a clear case of some guy not doing any research at all, and then reaching for the most ridiculous and elaborate explanation he could think of. That’s typical for conspiracy theories." -Phil Plait


http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/space/4319637

"Lacking quality in their evidence, UFO believers are left with quantity, a rambling collection of indistinct imagery and allegations that now includes a batch of space shuttle mission video clips that were never buried or classified in the first place."
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
wawa007 said:
[video=youtube;EjgjzBZ3mhA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjgjzBZ3mhA[/video]
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Another DNA test? This is like 10 years of DNA testing now, with all previous results showing human DNA. Each time, Pye spouts off about preliminary results, hinting that conclusive results will bring proof. Each time, when it's concluded as human DNA, Pye engages in special pleading. He also likes to spend time denying evolution.
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
if we were visited by aliens from a technologically advanced species, they would have to possess technology far beyond our own. delivering so much energy to any craft we could imagine would require protection from the radiation overspill from that energy source, just to allow them to survive the trip.

this presumes some form of sheilding to protect the crew from that energy, and some method to prevent acceleration from splattering the crew all over the interior walls.

if they have the technology to capture and/or redirect radiation to protect their crew certainly they would not waste energy making huge energy wakes ahead of them. they would direct the energy BEHIND them for propulsion, or reclaim it for use in other systems.

if they can reduce or eliminate the effects of inertia and acceleration, why would their drive systems be necessarily showy?

if they had the ability to travel the stars, they MIGHT observe primitive life forms much as we do, but i doubt they would be so crass as to abduct hillbilies from their pickup trucks for highly homoerotic anal probes, and then deposit them back home just to see what happens.

if they had the ability to pop over to observe, one presumes they would try to NOT interfere, they might go native like jane goodall and move through our society mimmicking our appearance and behaviors, or they might just drop observation drones around to collect data.

they MIGHT even put a few things around our planet just to fuck with us, cuz they are dicks.

dinosaurs? dude, one drunk Aldebaran anthropologist made that idea up 200 years ago and they been beaming fake dinosaur bones into the earth ever since!
zero point energy? yep. it totally works, but they got an anti-plancks constant feild generator all around our planet, and they turn it off when the inventors are alone, and flip that fucker back on when they shout "HEY DUDES! CHECK THIS SHIT OUT!"
anti gravity? you bet! but when you try to prove it works, they turn on their ANTI anti gravity machine just to make you look like a dumbass.

aliens are assholes.
 
newworldicon

newworldicon

Well-Known Member
Heisenberg said:
That was a fun one to watch, but a little digging suggests even the UFO community doesn't buy it.

http://news.discovery.com/space/jerusalem-ufo-video-case-closed-110331.html

"A few days ago, the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON), one of the oldest, largest, and most respected UFO investigation organizations in the world, announced their findings about the Jerusalem UFO. MUFON, though hardly a hard-line skeptical organization, has a stable of experts they draw upon for analysis."


According to a statement, "MUFON's chief Photo and Video Analyst, Mr. Marc Dantonio, stated 'I firmly believe that the UFO was not real, for many reasons...this video and the other Jerusalem UFO Videos are in my opinion hoaxes."

Robert Sheaffer, a longtime UFO investigator and author of the Bad UFOs blog commented, "the original Jerusalem UFO has now been definitely shown to be a hoax. Effects of the video processing software are clearly seen. The hoaxer used Motion Tile effects with edge mirroring to introduce camera shake into the video. You can see the mirroring effects along the edge of the video. This proves that the video did not go directly from the camera to YouTube, that it made a stop in between inside a sophisticated video editing software suite. Once you start editing it like that, a skilled hoaxer can put practically anything in it."

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501465_162-20031199-501465.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody
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Thanks for your responses, I enjoy the debate. I must say though that citing discovery channel or CBS is questionable at best, in the instance of the CBS article they use a known skeptic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Sheaffer) to supposedly debunk the sighting, what does that tell you? and when you scroll down to the comments section "which I always find fruitful in any instance" made by a Curtis Hare as an example, he states that being from the digital art field in his professional opinion it is not a fake, however I am open to the so called evidence to prove it is a fake, the article provides neither. Here is a c&p excerpt from his comment...

Lastly, there is no evidence of post-processing to any of the footage from this amazing event. Robert Sheaffer (the guy who said this is a hoax) is a UFO "skeptic" and "critic"(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Sheaffer); not really a qualified person to make the claim that this footage is unauthentic. Me being someone from the digital art field, I can tell you this is NOT a hoax.

Fox and Discovery have gone on to try and disprove this sighting for months now through bogus claims. This is not a promotional viral film for Battle: LA or a crazy video manipulation. Dozens of experts have come forward claiming this to be legitimate footage and the skeptics are vague, at best, with their explanations as to why this footage is fake.

Whilst this does not prove it is real it also does not prove it is fake, sorry but a CBS article proves nothing and with all due respect Heisenberg you need to deliver more before making a point. It does make me wonder though what is good enough for you to convince you of what is fake or real. Is mainstream media good enough for validity? I only had to scroll down on your link to show how many disapprove of the content of the article.

"A few days ago, the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON), one of the oldest, largest, and most respected UFO investigation organizations in the world, announced their findings about the Jerusalem UFO. MUFON, though hardly a hard-line skeptical organization, has a stable of experts they draw upon for analysis."

Well it is very well known that MUFON is as infiltrated as a pair of shit stained pants on a Typhus victim.....http://reformmufon.org/

What did you think of the Rendlesham incident? or the rods?
 
newworldicon

newworldicon

Well-Known Member
Heisenberg said:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/06/02/nasa-ufos-explained/

"Anyway, the videos usually makes me laugh, because the "UFOs" in question are just ice particles on the Shuttle dislodged when they fire the maneuvering jets. And when they fire the jets again, the expanding plume of gas makes the particles change direction and accelerate away. It’s really that simple, yet there are elaborate conspiracy theories created to say these are alien spacecraft, and lots of people buy into it.
I saw a presentation by an astronaut a few years ago debunking the claims of a UFO guy who swore up and down that these particles were spaceships. The astronaut — my friend the late Ron Parise — showed that the "UFOs" also seemed to change directions right after the vernier jets fired. The UFO guy said that Shuttle rockets are hugely powerful and it’s silly to think that was the cause; they’d move the Shuttle around! But as Ron points out, the jets are very gentle, designed to slowly and carefully change the Shuttle’s attitude — its pitch, yaw, and roll relative to Earth. Those generate only a few pounds of thrust, enough to slow the Shuttle’s attitude drift, for example.
This was a clear case of some guy not doing any research at all, and then reaching for the most ridiculous and elaborate explanation he could think of. That’s typical for conspiracy theories." -Phil Plait


http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/space/4319637

"Lacking quality in their evidence, UFO believers are left with quantity, a rambling collection of indistinct imagery and allegations that now includes a batch of space shuttle mission video clips that were never buried or classified in the first place."
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Um neither of these links pertain to the incident I mention however I see that you are trying to prove the point of ice crystals etc. which I am familiar with. But that does not address the video I linked which shows an object moves from right to left across the screen then abruptly and extremely quickly changing course in an almost 160 degree about turn with a earth bound light shooting across it's path just after it's abrupt turn. The links to videos on the popular mechanics site shows videos of objects that very clearly drift in one direction. So in summary does not address the original video nor does it debunk it in the slightest. I would also like to call into question the validity of popular mechanics considering who owns them..The Hearst corporation as well as their filthy association to the 9/11 lies.. http://rense.com/general63/brutalpurgeofPMstaff.htm

The first paragraph of the linked article should be enough to cast a shadow of doubt over popular mechanics.
 
newworldicon

newworldicon

Well-Known Member
Heisenberg said:
[video=youtube;DiidBX34-Uo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiidBX34-Uo[/video]
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I honestly see this as a debunking video and nothing more, their comparison of insects or fish to the supposed rod is no where near the same, it does not disprove the rods at all, as an example the nasa video says it was just debri but where is the wings on the debri to show that classic rotary motion, it's not there so what does it prove. It's still up in the air as far as I'm concerned. Plus monsterquest...really?
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
If you think the task is to disprove rods/ufo's, then you do not understand burden of proof. The information provided is more than enough to cast doubt, more than enough to ask certain questions. I see that you have found an irrelevant way to discount every source which offered scrutiny, yet show no such suspicion about the makers and promoters of the ufo videos. You speak of skepticism like it is racism, as if skeptics can not be objective, or have some sort of agenda. Skepticism is simply systematic doubt, applying doubt until it is no longer justified. Skepticism means being loyal to logic, consistency and rational reasoning before being loyal to any certain ideology, it does not simply mean to debunk. If you look at the monsterquest video and all you can come up with is to make fun of the shows name, then you do not understand the concept of falsification. You are not simply watching provoking videos and asking questions, you seem to be positing a global conspiracy which includes everyone who disagrees. (discovery, cbs, fox, skeptics, critics)
 
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