Do I have to start giving nutrients again?

cdgmoney250 said:

Sure I get that, and is how I would do it also if running bottle feed. But a lot of the “no Flush” synthetic growers boast high EC feeding until the day of harvest that give “better” results. That’s the viewpoint I disagree with.

My original comment was pointed at Mick who had said flushing is a stoner myth while using a poor analogy. It’s not. It can trigger senescence if your plants aren’t going to finish on “schedule” for people who don’t wait until the plant is truly done or only take plants 9 weeks. High EC feed or excess nitrogen can delay senescence, delay flower maturation and encourage new growth.

Click to expand...

Well let me ask you this then, do you think nutrients accumulate in the buds themselves?

Im gonna get in on this. Only because its civil. Why would a plant be harsh at 9 weeks full flowering? Ive ran this pheno many times and thats a great time to chop if its really done. Its been done at 8 full weeks especially with light schedule manipulation which can be bad if you really mess with it.

Ive ran it for 10 full weeks, 12 weeks one time just curious what it would do sitting ripe the rest of the time. No difference. I just see the plant break down at that point losing potency.

Ive cured a few times and notice its a strain thing. Some explode in aroma some stay kinda the same but become very smooth. Why does my bud never smoke right in joints? Ive had bud all my life in prohibition and post legal rec smoke fine and smooth too like youre not even smoking anything. Like a malboro gold or silver if you know.

Anyway people been sayin to flush for long time but lately people been saying studies dont show. They dont show that theres any less nutes in the bud themself something like that. I say try it and see we all tend to have a few things we do that are debatable. I could flush my pheno and see if its any less harsh.

The white ash thing is some bs I never even heard of that till it was legal rec for a while. People were starting to grow and “want that fine white ash.”

For me taste, harshness and potency it's all about genetics actually, today's genetic have all fancy names like "super duper tropical zoap" but they can't compare to old cannabis strains, today's genetics suck basically Kush strains mixed with Skunk phenotypes but man, I really miss that Old School strains even bag street Cannabis was very potent I remember having a couple of beers plus some tokes and fall to the floor after going straight to the sky.

Today genetics are weak and they (Cannabis companies) try to make you believe that with their super expensive products like Bloombastic that's 182 dollars per liter you'll get a decent outcome even if your genetics or your setup suck.

My plants are receiving 1500 ppfd from sunlight every day and they don't need too much from me besides tons of water and NKP in a regular basis, nature and genetics keep the thing going and my plants are always happy be tomatoes, cacti or of course Cannabis.

I use synthetic fertilizer NPK 3 - 1 - 2 from start to finish I don't pay attention to gay stuff like "bloom boosters" I keep my plants green to the end, good taste is 95% genetics and 5 % proper drying and storing.

In the picture below you can see my cacti flowering, he hasn't "seen" a bloom fertilizer in his life, only 3 - 1 - 2 NPK always and tons of sun light, and this year he is blooming like a mofo.

Well people think curing is about redistribution of moisture nothing else. I think its that along with the other belief that its about bacteria feeding on the chlorophyl during the cure that does it. Before I forget important to note Im hash only so I didnt spend much time curing my product its for flower rosin.

I give cured bud to family for free to smoke tho so Ive somewhat slowly but surely learned my way around a cure. Anyway, so I asked ai if its more about chlorophyl breaking down before further breakin down in the cure.

Says: : The exact impact of flushing on chlorophyll levels and overall cannabis quality is still a subject of ongoing research and debate within the cannabis community. Some studies suggest that while flushing may reduce chlorophyll and alter nutrient concentrations, its effects on other aspects of quality, like terpene and cannabinoid profiles, might be minimal or inconsistent across different strains.

I dont see people touch on this during the flushing thread arguements that often end up closed for discussion. If we just respectfully interact tho we can talk all day about it. People been flushing for very long time. It only recently turned to a hot debate.

High Nitrogen levels they say can do it too. Mine is a heavy feeder she just dark. Im in dtw coco and seeing I was overwatering which they dont talk about often. They say you cant but if you do you can get too dark of leafs. Mine are lighter cutting frequency in half this run. Maybe could try flushing it for a week too.

Hollatchaboy said:

Well let me ask you this then, do you think nutrients accumulate in the buds themselves?

Click to expand...

Yes, I do believe that mobile nutrients (especially in excess) are stored in bud tissue during flowering. Pretty much every cell of the plant will play a role in excess mineral storage of said minerals that aren’t utilized upon uptake.

From Google AI (because I don’t have time to pull up studies atm):

“Yes, cannabis plants, particularly in the flowering stage, can exhibit "luxury consumption" of certain nutrients, meaning they may absorb and store more nutrients than are strictly necessary for their growth and development
.
This can lead to a buildup of nutrients within the plant tissues, including the developing inflorescences (buds). While some nutrient reserves are normal and can be utilized later, excessive accumulation can be problematic.
Here's why

• Nutrient Burn: Excess nutrients, especially nitrogen, can cause nutrient burn, leading to yellowing or browning of leaf tips and potentially affecting the overall health and vitality of the plant and the quality of the harvested buds.
• Reduced Bud Quality: Over-fertilization, especially during the flowering stage, can negatively impact the final product, potentially leading to a harsh taste or undesirable smoke quality.
• Inflorescence Enrichment: Studies show that developing inflorescences can become enriched with phosphorus and potentially other nutrients, which may not always be beneficial for yield or quality.

In essence, while some nutrient storage in inflorescences during flowering is natural, excessive storage due to over-fertilization can be detrimental to the plant and the quality of the final product. Proper nutrient management is crucial during the flowering stage to avoid overfeeding and ensure optimal plant health and bud development.“

medidedicated said:

I dont see people touch on this during the flushing thread arguements that often end up closed for discussion. If we just respectfully interact tho we can talk all day about it. People been flushing for very long time. It only recently turned to a hot debate.

Click to expand...

I think it became more debated recently because of that RX Green Study that came out. Also, I think a lot of people attribute the difference in smoke quality to things like increased cannabinoid content and increased terpene content. Both of which I don’t think flushing plays a large roll in and has somewhat minimal affects especially that late in the plants life. But breaking down chlorophyll, redistributing minerals and using up mineral stores are what I personally believe to be some of the biggest factors in pre-cure finished bud quality for smokability, regarding flushing/reducing feed.

Now if your plants aren’t over-fed, flushing may have minimal/negligible effects.

Here is a study from last year regarding the things I just mentioned that are somewhat minimally affected.

Skunkee101 said:

For me taste, harshness and potency it's all about genetics actually,

Click to expand...

I’ll have to firmly disagree with you on this. Some grow buddies and I have shared the same cuts and ran them in our own setups which are all a little different. End product is noticeably different between myself and the other growers all growing the same cut. I grow organic under LED, another buddy grows Synthetic under LED with H&G, another buddy grows Synthetic under HPS using Jacks 321. Bag appeal differences, terpene differences, buzz differences, and smoothness of smoke is a huge difference between the finished product.

That said, some genetics will overall just be better than others. But grow method definitely plays a huge role in finished product.

cdgmoney250 said:

Yes, I do believe that mobile nutrients (especially in excess) are stored in bud tissue during flowering. Pretty much every cell of the plant will play a role in excess mineral storage of said minerals that aren’t utilized upon uptake.

From Google AI (because I don’t have time to pull up studies atm):

“Yes, cannabis plants, particularly in the flowering stage, can exhibit "luxury consumption" of certain nutrients, meaning they may absorb and store more nutrients than are strictly necessary for their growth and development
.
This can lead to a buildup of nutrients within the plant tissues, including the developing inflorescences (buds). While some nutrient reserves are normal and can be utilized later, excessive accumulation can be problematic.
Here's why

• Nutrient Burn: Excess nutrients, especially nitrogen, can cause nutrient burn, leading to yellowing or browning of leaf tips and potentially affecting the overall health and vitality of the plant and the quality of the harvested buds.
• Reduced Bud Quality: Over-fertilization, especially during the flowering stage, can negatively impact the final product, potentially leading to a harsh taste or undesirable smoke quality.
• Inflorescence Enrichment: Studies show that developing inflorescences can become enriched with phosphorus and potentially other nutrients, which may not always be beneficial for yield or quality.

In essence, while some nutrient storage in inflorescences during flowering is natural, excessive storage due to over-fertilization can be detrimental to the plant and the quality of the final product. Proper nutrient management is crucial during the flowering stage to avoid overfeeding and ensure optimal plant health and bud development.“






I think it became more debated recently because of that RX Green Study that came out. Also, I think a lot of people attribute the difference in smoke quality to things like increased cannabinoid content and increased terpene content. Both of which I don’t think flushing plays a large roll in and has somewhat minimal affects especially that late in the plants life. But breaking down chlorophyll, redistributing minerals and using up mineral stores are what I personally believe to be some of the biggest factors in pre-cure finished bud quality for smokability, regarding flushing/reducing feed.

Now if your plants aren’t over-fed, flushing may have minimal/negligible effects.

Here is a study from last year regarding the things I just mentioned that are somewhat minimally affected.

To flush or not to flush: Does flushing the growing media affect cannabinoid and terpenoid production in cannabis?

Discontinuing the supply of mineral nutrients to the plants at the last phase of cultivation, termed ‘flushing’ by the cannabis industry, is an agricu…

www.sciencedirect.com

I’ll have to firmly disagree with you on this. Some grow buddies and I have shared the same cuts and ran them in our own setups which are all a little different. End product is noticeably different between myself and the other growers all growing the same cut. I grow organic under LED, another buddy grows Synthetic under LED with H&G, another buddy grows Synthetic under HPS using Jacks 321. Bag appeal differences, terpene differences, buzz differences, and smoothness of smoke is a huge difference between the finished product.

That said, some genetics will overall just be better than others. But grow method definitely plays a huge role in finished product.

Click to expand...

Can you point out which were harsher? Im kinda leaning to genetics but could be grow method. Well I guess the unique finger print of end product we all get even if as close to same inputs possible.. Are you saying its more broad than that like even microbiome?

I think Ive generally read synthetic hydro is harsher and organics is smoother, richer in taste more potent. But also that organics is a buzzword and really true organics is like no till. Which they dont flush do they? Idk just wondering what to do if I have something thats just a bit tough to smoke.

Ive grown ffof with nothing but top dress more ffof and recharge or water thats it. Idk how organic that is but one was a crappy pheno for a white widow cross. Then this one auto that was just the most interesting flavor ever had. I missed the cure window on those tho.

So if somethings harsh it could be something else causing it even tho its not the cure? You can tell idk much about this but im dabs only. Im just learning for serving purposes when I want to give to smokers. Its been genetics for me up to this point.

Damn so I just did a crash course with ai on organics. I learned a lot more than ever but wow kinda boils down to the same thing. Genetics and proper growing and harvesting. So yea what I take from this is see so for yourself. Its not a done discussion this actually one of those blow the lid off and see how deep it gets type things.

Idk why its such a hot debate its clearly not conclusive. Its not settled just yet.

So no till you aim for no runoff and minimal external input most notably dry fert. I didnt realize dry fert is still organic. I didnt know hydro is so bad for the environment. But organics can build a better relationship with plant triggering things like ISR a stress response and provide hormones like auxin.

Triggering things that provide secondary motabilites that produce terps and cannabinoids. Im hash only and people been saying due to that I somewhat have insight to my phenos potency. How it can start to drop in yield Im investigating if due to poor cloning practices. Mother keeping skills.

I can try organics again and see if that raises yield and quality like suggested. I have my reasons for sticking with dtw coco tho I didnt even ask it about that. Consistency. Will all 6 clones fill in space the same way and yield the same extract every time or is it redundant and take major skill to achieve.

My clones grow like theyre copy and pasted. Idk if Id get that in soil anytime soon but feels good to know Id do the environment a favor. Be more sustainable and independant as a grower not relying on maxibloom to do it all for me.

Well container growing or no till you want to manage it so its not overfed. Towards the end is where things differ from dtw coco and organic soil, youd just let it run through the nutes. In dtw coco you run it till the end then flush for a week plain water.

You dont really flush soil tho. There wasnt nutes in there to begin with its in different form. I read salt build up can happen in buds but so can minerals and things from soil. Again, proper growing avoids that. I guess theres always some tho?

It just points to it being still open for debate exactly whats going on when flushing in relation to cure. It kinda boiled down to what I already thought its more genetics if all else is well. I know my bud could be smoother given what I said I had bud not provide any feeling when inhaling. Maybe someone can grow my clone and show me otherwise.

Idk how often the smoke I had was dtw coco grown. Some where just harsher than others but mines always been like a ok Im definetly smoking something at best and just never stays lit in joints idk what Im doing wrong. Ive gotten some strains to cure and do everything but that.

Organics, can lead to better product while hydro is very refined I guess I understand. Again, genetics can fix that if it just dumps hash and terps. It just can lack tho. Idk I got lots to keep reading to understand more but shoot. Just clicks then I lose my understanding again.

Because it boils down to proper growing and curing but organics can provide more full spectrum like cannabinoid profile. Just the way I always understood it, smoother richer and potent more frost. But why is what I was diving into. But will flushing help and why is just not settled yet.

Its not really flush tho which I forget is part of the confusion. Flushing removed nutes from media usually dtw coco and just letting it run thru its nutes and reserves with water only is the other kind of flush. Not dumping water thru it though in soil.

Idk but my experience tells me try it if you want, I only am able to say things by doing it. If it made an impact on you then keep doing it and testing it. Tell us how it went, the more data and details the better. Like this jellysickle I harvested, I tested a sample drying it hot/dry. It smelled like wet dog said my fam and it burned my throat smoking it.

Same plant I “cure” properly is now citrus pine to my fam and to me is its just dank and notably smooth when I smoked it. I got excited as not all strains do this. The seed market is different to the market of ready to smoke flower youre used to having available to you depending where you are. Some folks had nothing but garbage and had to grow their own.

Idk im getting dumber trying to figure this out. Spent like an hr typing this.

medidedicated said:

Can you point out which were harsher? Im kinda leaning to genetics but could be grow method. Well I guess the unique finger print of end product we all get even if as close to same inputs possible.. Are you saying its more broad than that like even microbiome?

Click to expand...

Both of my buddies were harsher, with the House & Garden/LED grown being the harshest. Which is super interesting because we were using the same exact lights at the time and the smoke was worlds apart.

I’m not really a hash or dabs guy anymore, but another buddy of mine was processing all my trim and small nugs that I didn’t want to bother with and he would process it into dabs with butane extraction. Then my grower buddy asked if he could get his stuff processed as well. Mine always came back golden yellow, maybe a hint of orange, or even more clear like a pane of glass and was still terpy (this was open loop extraction), but my grower buddies stuff always came back super dark and goopy looking, and didn’t smell very good. My processing friend ended up telling my dude that he wouldn’t process his stuff anymore… because he was taking a percentage of the finish product for doing the work. He didn’t want my buddies gross dabs lol.
It was a great deal for me at the time, though.

Anyways, I prefer organic grown bud for reasons you can read about HERE & HERE. Careful, it’s some spicy reading.
Sometimes I like kicking the hornet’s nest.

If you’re interested in starting down the Organic rabbit-hole, I would suggest you start with the following links:

No-Till Gardening

Hi everyone, I'm an indoor no till gardener utilizing large smart pots. As the thread develops I'll elaborate on my setup, which is quite simple in...

forum.grasscity.com

Anytime somebody in the thread posts a link to a study, read ALL of them.

I would highly suggest researching the work that the Rodale Institute does HERE

Research the Soil Food Web/Elaine Ingham, read Teeming with Microbes and Teeming with Nutrients.

Also, balancing minerals in soil is very important, so you’ll want to read about proper macro & micro nutrient levels and ratios, soil moisture content/capacity, proper ph ranges… etc

Here is a soil mineral balancing rabbit-hole for you


If you end up reading through all this and coming away with a general understanding of the content, you will likely find the clarity you seek. Keep in mind, the links of what I just shared are the tip of a really big iceberg.

And then there is bud curing….

I bookmarked it and will check it out. Its daunting tho I done soil a few times and its just not easy. Dtw coco just isnt like that and gave me acceptable results. I tried keeping it simple just had no clue whats going on why its losing all leafs.

Coco also uses way too much water literally pouring 20 gallons into the lawn every two days for just flower. I mean it seems simple just need the soil itself then amend it for the microbes. Then the dry ferts are for what the amendments lack.

Idk its just a mess and Im getting dumber just getting deeper into it. Breeding is a bit complex but Im going somewhere as I get deeper. Playing with light spectrum Im just meh not really grasping it. Soil forget about it I just dont understand why its so hard for me.

Ive literally done it and not gotten any easier. The runoff ppms are through the roof, not all is readily available. Im recharging the soil. Keeping it decently moist not overly but with some dryback. Why is the plant just freakin dying. What am I going to learn from those links that give me confidence to try again..

Il look through them but just saying I might not grasp any of it. Its good I did soil few times so I know Im not mislead read with caution. I read oh just grab ffof in a container, water it only and top dress fresh ffof very month or whatever. Oh great lets do this. Only to lead to fustration and dissapointment. Its not that simple.

Oh and everyone tends to have their own way of solving it so you cant listen to everyone at once. You have to listen to people that do things in line with where youre going. IE some say Im overwatering but listening to those people nearly killed my plant letting it dryback to their standard. So I kept listening to those who said yes water it more.

Some say go ahead and flush it but then someone else hops on and says no youre going to make it worse. It got worse for me so no more listening to that guy. With dtw coco its not like that we all echo eachother in advice.

Here a couple examples of me in soil. Never like this with coco. Maybe if I just tried again with a few strains I might get one that clicks and can start to work my way around into it. I dont feel optimistic trying again looking at these tho I just remember all the fustration.

So much goin on in the pot and how to know exactly how much to add and not over or under feed. With dtw its just whatever npk maxibloom is at 1.7ec and just replenish media to be about that in the rootzone. Different strains can want different EC but thats it. No rabbit hole.

So compare that to soil, how the HELL do I know what the rootzone is, its npk mixed with the amendments like bat guano.. Its nute concentration and how much to add to keep it so. Infact why the hell cant the ffof/top dress more ffor wont work? Ugh Is it because it needs dry fert like I think mega crop 444.. Hell this givin me a headache already.

Rabbit holes should be engaging and fun you get from one step to the next. Ive been given things to read and I attempted to but it just gets harder the more I try. I dont make it past square one and the best people you could suggest help me have tried and didnt have much to say as to why my plants looked like shit.

Some where able to get me to the end and then those saying conflicting things against what they said which helped the most. That I was overwatering when that was probably the only thing going right at the time.

i feel like a lot of people thinking flushing = just using water to wash the root system and oh boy

Growing super healthy plants truly organically indoors can be challenging. Or it can be a walk in the park. Grower’s skill level plays a role in the garden as well.

When I first started, I followed a soil recipe in the link I posted above and some simple practices like a feeding schedule, and ended up having stellar results, even though the grow wasn’t perfect.

Then I researched a bunch, made my own soil with a bunch of individual ingredients, sent a sample of it to a soil lab, they analyzed and gave me my results as well as recommendations on anything else to add. Then I had had even more stellar results.

Either option gave me stellar results. Neither one is necessarily easy per se. But Google how many people have had success following that exact same recipe. A company out of Colorado called Buildasoil even copied and sells an inferior version of the same-ish recipe that I followed and linked above, because it was so successful with home growers trying it.

Not that you have to try it. It just leads to the best possible results, in my personal opinion.

The other links and things I suggested researching explain why these methods work. That way you aren’t just a drone mixing soil, without knowing the why of how certain things should be done or what ingredients you use. It just reinforces understanding and builds foundational knowledge, so if something seems off, you can really ponder what’s going on, test things or take measurements, and sort issues out quicker and reliably. Sound like a pain? You bet!

Why do you think so many GROWERS prefer synthetic, but most seasoned TOKERS prefer organic?! But the juice is worth the squeeze.

cdgmoney250 said:

Growing super healthy plants truly organically indoors can be challenging. Or it can be a walk in the park. Grower’s skill level plays a role in the garden as well.

When I first started, I followed a soil recipe in the link I posted above and some simple practices like a feeding schedule, and ended up having stellar results, even though the grow wasn’t perfect.

Then I researched a bunch, made my own soil with a bunch of individual ingredients, sent a sample of it to a soil lab, they analyzed and gave me my results as well as recommendations on anything else to add. Then I had had even more stellar results.

Either option gave me stellar results. Neither one is necessarily easy per se. But Google how many people have had success following that exact same recipe. A company out of Colorado called Buildasoil even copied and sells an inferior version of the same-ish recipe that I followed and linked above, because it was so successful with home growers trying it.

Not that you have to try it. It just leads to the best possible results, in my personal opinion.

Click to expand...

I tried taking a look for quick is it the no till links? From what I hear, no till is much harder and didnt think it would help. I thought starting with a simple ready to use soil and top dress more to get a foot in door and go from there. Lots of people just mixing basic stuff not many ingredients to make a soil and just water and top dress nothing rocket sciency.

I just dont know why I have so much info in my head on soil and none of it is clicking. Maybe trying again would help as its just beating dead horse why that last round went that way. Sometimes just got to go with whatever works, like for ex I first hand saw bti not work for gnats and aphids in dtw coco. Idk how one could mess that up but Im not the only one claiming that.

so my pots are sealed up with bags around drainaway trays. Idk what I would do for a 7-20 gallon pot of soil but people claim all these basic ways to win against them. I can see that becoming a problem again, just how one problem turns into another. If I can get past that, I have box fans for circulation and low rh/85F temps so dryback is hell unless sealed from that environment in bags.

That can help with the bug problem too. So Id want to somehow incorporate that into an organic grow as the box fan/low rh is to avoid PM and budrot. Thats another thing, if high rh and overwatering causes gutation in buds leading to rot Id hope thats not another issue.

I just wasnt seeing much on the core issues I have it just seems like basic journaling I always see. I about spent all day attempting to learn tho but once again no real gold nugget and dopamine leading me to want more. Even if it means moments of brick wall and fustration. This supposed to be on topic I think it all is as OP is talking about feeding nutes.

Maybe Im just a black thumb and dtw coco is the best I can do. You know how people just black thumbs. I tried growing other things besides cannabis and nothing lived. My fam is the same way they just keep whatever house plants dont die on them and not many to choose from. Just hearty tough plants minimal care.

Today the flowers of my cacti opened, after many years of growing and trying stuff with plants I realized that common gardening practices give me the best results, light, water, fresh air and NKP in the right ratio, right dose, etc is the only thing plants need, for me what's going on in the "grow shops" is greedy people trying to get your money, some fertilizers are 600 dollars per gallon, are you kidding me?

I don't need to add molasses because Cannabis plants produce on their roots exudates that contain no less than 30 different organic molecules (carbos, proteins, etc) that feed the beneficial bacteria present everywhere for that same reason I don't need to buy bacteria there are 30.000 different species of bacteria in a gram of any good soil, clearly companies are scamming new growers.

Also I never give to any of my plants "bloom boosters" because they destroy the health of the roots of my plants, clearly when you give your plants an excess of phosphorus the rhizosphere gets wacked out and suffers (nutrient imbalance happen and happens really quick), the outcome is yellowing leaves and necrotic spots on them.

Skunkee101 said:

Today the flowers of my cacti opened, after many years of growing and trying stuff with plants I realized that common gardening practices give me the best results, light, water, fresh air and NKP in the right ratio, right dose, etc is the only thing plants need, for me what's going on in the "grow shops" is greedy people trying to get your money, some fertilizers are 600 dollars per gallon, are you kidding me?

I don't need to add molasses because Cannabis plants produce on their roots exudates that contain no less than 30 different organic molecules (carbos, proteins, etc) that feed the beneficial bacteria present everywhere for that same reason I don't need to buy bacteria there are 30.000 different species of bacteria in a gram of any good soil, clearly companies are scamming new growers.

Also I never give to any of my plants "bloom boosters" because they destroy the health of the roots of my plants, clearly when you give your plants an excess of phosphorus the rhizosphere gets wacked out and suffers (nutrient imbalance happen and happens really quick), the outcome is yellowing leaves and necrotic spots on them.

Click to expand...

i agree with this observation because i have the same mind set, I make soil, grow different things, let some plants pull crap from the air back into the soil. I spend about maybe 400 a year in soil amendments and the cost goes down each time. I also try to buy the power nutrient needed