Crazy PH Swings? Read this...

Hobgoblit

Active Member
Crazy pH Swings – How Media and Bacteria Affect pH in Hydroponics

May 21st, 2010 | Author: admin

I usually get an email from time to time from someone who is experiencing wild pH swings in their hydroponic reservoirs. Growers usually tell me that their pH was around 6.2 one day and then 8.0 by the next morning or some similar story. This situation becomes a little bit frustrating as the grower does a huge effort to keep the solution at a certain pH level only to realize that after a certain time the pH of the solution simply starts to swing wildly between very odd values. In order to help new and experienced growers better understand the nature of these swings, what they mean, and how they can be eliminated for good I decided to write this small article on hydroponic pH swings and how variables different to plant feeding affect pH levels. Let’s suppose you got home from work, prepared a new batch of nutrient solution and set your pH level at a very comfortable level of 5.7. By the next day, when you wake up in the morning to check your plants you find that the pH of your solution is 7.5. You start to argue with your pH meter, recalibrate, readjust your solution and leave for work. When you come back – to your surprise – your pH level is now around 7.3. What ? – you ask yourself – What could be wrong if you set the pH to 5.7 again and it again went up to 7.3 ?
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The answer to these wild pH swings comes from an understanding of the chemistry behind everything within your hydroponic system. Generally these swings towards high pH values are caused by media which has surface-active basic sites which act like “buffers” and readjust the pH of your nutrient solution to their own “preset” pH level. This is very much like the mechanism used by soils to naturally control pH, only that this time the minerals are playing against you. Substrates that have been made at high temperatures which have basic potential – such as rockwool – show this kind of behavior. Other media such as river bed gravel also show strong pH buffering effects due to their natural mineral composition.
How do you end this problem ? The easiest way to end this problem is to pretreat your media before starting your crop. Place your media in a bucket and then add 1 liter of vinegar for every gallon of water. The media will attempt to neutralize the acetic acid and in doing so it will lose the proton capturing ability of its surface basic sites. Using a weak acid like acetic acid is better than using a strong acid – like nitric acid – because this ensures that residual acids within the media won’t lead to other extreme pH fluctuations. After the media is soaked in the vinegar solution measure the pH, wait a day and measure it again. If there is no difference between both readings then you can now wash and use the media – if there is – then you need to wait another day and remeasure.
Now basic media is not the only problem around. There are also wild swings to acid values which are usually a consequence of bacterial growth or dying organic matter. When organisms die or when they are being decomposed by bacteria organic acids – which lower pH – are released into your nutrient solution. Wild swings into the 3.5-4.5 region usually mean that the problem is not media but related to root disease. You should do a hydrogen peroxide treatment (check my articles on peroxide for more on this) and wait to see if pH levels stabilize after a while. In extreme cases, physical removal of dead root material may be necessary to correct the problem.
Last but not least, the problem can also be related with plant feeding from a very scarse volume of solution. If you are handling less than 1 gallon per plant of solution in your reservoir then it is likely that plants themselves – through the absorption of nutrients – are causing the swings. This is easily fixed by placing a larger reservoir and ensuring that you are always recirculating at least 1 gallon per plant of nutrient solution. Hopefully with the above guide you will be able to better understand “wild” pH swings and take corrective action whenver you see this behavior happening within your hydroponic crop.
 

pazuzu420

Well-Known Member

1) Adjust the pH of water to 5.5. (NO LOWER). Use pH Down or lemon. Check with pH paper or meter.

2) If soaking A-Ok plugs, Macroplugs, or Miniblocks, mix in a little bit of plant food. Then just dip the starter in this pH 5.5 mix and it’s ready for the seed or cutting.


3) For all other Grodan products- SOAK, FLUSH, then PLANT!
Soak in plain water (pH 5.5) for 1/2 an hour (longer if soaking granulate).






I was confused because they directions on grodan says that you don't need to soak the cubes that long. I followed the directions and don't hae thse crazy swings. My PH typical runs from 5.5 to 6.0

Great information +REP
4) Flush through with pH 5.5 water mixed with some plant food. Make sure the flushed water goes to waste. Then plant into your prepared Grodan block, slab, Grow-Cubes™, or granulate!

DO NOT SQUEEZE the cubes or blocks. They are designed for the perfect air/water ratio. When you squeeze the product you may ruin the good structure.
 

Hobgoblit

Active Member
<b>PH Electrode Care and Maintenance...

PH Electrode Care and MaintenanceYour pH electrode is the most sensitive component of your pH instrument. Correct calibration procedures combined with proper maintenance will provide years of reliable measurement.
Calibration
Since glass pH electrodes measure H+ (hydrogen ion) concentration relative to their reference half-cells, they must be calibrated periodically to ensure accurate, repeatable measurements. Our wide selection of commercial pH calibration buffer sachets include solutions that are standardized against NIST-certified pH references for calibrating meters with resolution up to 0.01pH.
Although calibration against one pH reference buffer (one-point calibration) typically ensures accurate pH measurement, frequent two-point or even three-point calibrations ensure the most reliable results. Make sure your pH system includes calibration buffers for a range of pH values.
Handling
During shipment it is possible for air bubbles to move into the glass bulb. To remove air bubbles, shake down the electrode in the same manner as a clinical thermometer until the glass bulb is filled with solution.
Rinse electrodes with distilled water before and after measuring a sample. Blot the end of the electrode with lint-free paper to remove excess water. NOTE: Never wipe the electrode to remove excess water - wiping can create static charges that interfere with correct pH measurement.
Conditioning
After removing the electrode from soaking bottle or protective cap at the bottom of sensor, place the electrode in a clean container containing one of the liquids i.e. 4.0 M KCl or pH 7.0 buffer. Soak electrode for 30 minutes if left dry. NOTE: Never condition the electrode in distilled water or deionised water - long term exposure to pure water will damage the special glass membrane.
After conditioning the sensor, rinse the electrode with distilled or deionised water. The electrode is ready for calibration and measurement.
Storing
The sensor should never be stored dry. Always keep pH electrode moist. Proper pH electrode storage maximizes electrode performance and extends electrode life. It is best to store electrodes in clean containers filled with pH storage solution, EC-RE005. Do not store an electrode in distilled or deionised water - this will cause ions to leach out of the glass bulb and render your electrode useless.
Cleaning
The solution used to clean pH electrode depends on the presence of possible contaminants. Mechanically intact electrodes may show slow response due to coating or clogging. Use the guide below to choose the appropriate cleaning solution options:-

  • For general cleaning: Soak the pH electrode in 0.1 M Hydrochloric Acid or 0.1 M HNO3 for 20 minutes. Rinse well in tap water before use.
  • For removing stubborn deposits and bacteria: Soak the pH electrode in a 1:10 dilution of household laundry bleach for 10 minutes. Rinse thoroughly before use.
  • For removal of oil and grease: Rinse the pH electrode in mild detergent or methyl alcohol. Wash in water before use.
  • For removal of protein deposits: Soak the pH electrode in 1% pepsin in 0.1m HCl (EC-DPC-BT) for 5 minutes. Rinse well in water before use.
CAUTION: Proper eyewear and hand gloves must be used when handling strong chemicals.
After any of the cleaning procedures, it is good practice to thoroughly rinse the pH electrode with deionised water, drain and refill the reference chamber if necessary before use.

</b>
 

Hobgoblit

Active Member
Reservoir Maintenance
The routine task of keeping the hydroponic nutrient solution in the reservoir from becoming too strong or toxic as the water is being evaporated and the nutrients within the solution are taken up by the plants.

Simply put...
Top off daily with *half strength nutrients, alternating days topping up with plain water. Change the entire reservoir with fresh solution every ten days to two weeks. (*half the strength of your current new reservoir starting strength)

Why should you?
One problem in hydroponics solution maintenance, as water is being taken up by the plants as well as evaporating out of the solution, the concentration of nutrient salts in the solution becomes gradually stronger, sometimes to the point of certain elements becoming toxic to the plants. The TDS will always become stronger as water is taken away from the solution.

Another problem, is that hydroponically grown plants will take up what they need as they need it from the nute solution. A nutrient solution left alone will end up lacking key nutrients, with a build-up of *toxic levels of other key nutrients. *Toxic in the solution, as well as in the plants.

The only way around these problems for the average hydroponic grower, is to practice sound reservoir topping off procedures. The most widely accepted maintenance method, involves daily topping off and routine reservoir solution replacement. IE: Topping off the reservoir daily with a nutrient solution which is half of the current new reservoir strength, alternating days by topping off with plain water and finally, changing the entire res solution at least every two weeks.

Changing the reservoir solution every two weeks, will give the plants a fresh and well balanced nute mix, which has not been altered by the plants nutrient uptake.

*Many scientific studies have been performed, which demonstrate these facts by GCMS testing of the nutrient solution contents and the nutrient salts contained within the actual plant tissues, as the plants "take-up" the specific nutrients in the solution.

Metaphorically speaking...
Plants will take up excessive levels of some nutrients, leaving the solution lacking in certain key nutrients. Just like a puppy would make him/her self sick if it were allowed to feed from a bottomless food bowl, plants grown hydroponically can harm themselves with nutrient deficiencies, lockouts and overdoses, if allowed to continue feeding without some control over whats available in the "food bowl".
 

Hobgoblit

Active Member
Here's some more info on PH, not my words, but still worthy...

Understanding why your PH does what it does...

When water reacts with itself to create the H3O(+)(hydroxyl) and OH(-) (hydroxide) species, one of the most fundamental and important characteristics of aqueous solutions is generated. The reactivity of a solution and its interaction with living organisms is determined in a great extent by the concentration of these two species, a variable usually measured as pH which is nothing but the negative value of the logarithm of the concentration of the H3O(+) ion. In hydroponic culture &#8211; where our plants are in great contact with aqueous solutions &#8211; the understanding of the role of the H3O(+) and OH(-) ions and their measurement as pH becomes very important if an in-depth understanding of what is going on wants to be attained. On today&#8217;s post I will attempt to guide you into this micro world of pH and how and why pH changes within a hydroponic crop. What determines pH ? This variable is inversely proportional to the concentration of H3O(+) ions and directly proportional to OH(-) ions, the more hydroxil ions you have the more acidic your solution will be (the lower the pH) while more hydroxide ions will increase your pH and give you a higher pH reading. It is important to understand here that hydroxyl and hydroxide ions determine each other&#8217;s concentration. Since water&#8217;s self-reaction equilibria must be maintained, the sum of pH and pOH must always be equal to 14 (a neat consequence of chemical equilibrium theory). When the concentration of hydroxyl and hydroxide ions is equal, pH and pOH contribute equally to the solution and they are therefore both 7, reason why the pH of a neutral solution has this value. Now that we know a little bit about pH we can understand better what happens when plants interact with a nutrient solution. When a plant is put within a given solution it wants to absorb the nutrients it needs to grow. These nutrients are available as ions that have a given charge. For example, nitrogen is absorbed as the nitrate ion (NO3(-)) while potassium is absorbed as the K(+) ion. When a plant takes potassium in, it deplets the solution of a positive charge. Since the solution must remain neutral the plant gives the solution an H3O(+) ion to compensate. The plant has therefore decreased the pH of the solution by absorbing a potassium ion. When nitrate is absorbed &#8211; an ion with a negative charge- the plant does the opposite and exchanges the nitrate for an OH(-), the pH of the solution is increased.
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If plants absorbed nutrients in a perfectly symmetrical fashion, they would not increase or decrease pH as overall charge changes would be compensated. However &#8211; as no one is perfect- plants absorb nutrients at different rates and they therefore create a &#8220;pull&#8221; towards a certain pH region. If a plant absorbs nitrate heavily it will start to contribute far more OH(-) than H3O(+) ions into the solution and the result will be a net increase in pH. Depending on the composition of the nutrients and the overall growth stage of the plant, different net movements in pH can be achieved by the plant.
The most influential factor in the changes of pH within a solution is generally the composition of the nitrogen component of the solution. When plants absorb ammonium ions NH4(+) they tend to decrease pH while nitrate &#8211; as mentioned above &#8211; tends to increase pH when absorbed. If you contribute a percentage of the nitrogen in your solution as ammonia the net effect will be a beneficial &#8220;absorption pH buffer&#8221; since plants will take nitrogen in both forms, effectively delaying the onset of important pH variations. Of course, the ratio of nutrients also performs a vital role since plants&#8217; nutrient absorption mechanism are largely non-specific and they are greatly influenced by the different concentrations of nutrients within the solutions. Having a nutrient solution designed to provide an adequate balance will be vital in helping you control pH fluctuations.​

 

Grewdat

Member

1) Adjust the pH of water to 5.5. (NO LOWER). Use pH Down or lemon. Check with pH paper or meter.

2) If soaking A-Ok plugs, Macroplugs, or Miniblocks, mix in a little bit of plant food. Then just dip the starter in this pH 5.5 mix and it&#8217;s ready for the seed or cutting.


3) For all other Grodan products- SOAK, FLUSH, then PLANT!
Soak in plain water (pH 5.5) for 1/2 an hour (longer if soaking granulate).






I was confused because they directions on grodan says that you don't need to soak the cubes that long. I followed the directions and don't hae thse crazy swings. My PH typical runs from 5.5 to 6.0

Great information +REP
4) Flush through with pH 5.5 water mixed with some plant food. Make sure the flushed water goes to waste. Then plant into your prepared Grodan block, slab, Grow-Cubes&#8482;, or granulate!

DO NOT SQUEEZE the cubes or blocks. They are designed for the perfect air/water ratio. When you squeeze the product you may ruin the good structure.
Yeah for rockwool... the flush after the presoak is important. Another thing with rockwool is whether you top or bottom feed. Bottom feeding rockwool has an extraordinary amount of salt buildup and during vegging huge swings WILL occur. Got to top feed once a week to flush out some of those salts.

I found that with rockwool I could NOT use beneficials without huge swings. After the initial application the PH swings up immensely in the cubes and had to compensate by bringing my res. PH down to around 5.1 ish. After that I had to check the PH in the rockwool daily and stay on top of things.
 

Bullethead21

Well-Known Member
I have found the best way to stable PH is number one, use a formula that has good PH buffewrs in it....and number 2, balance your nutrient solution.......when your balance and nutrient profile is dialed in, you should see a natural slow rise in the PH as the roots uptake nutrients and leave behind as they eat, materials that cause PH to rise. This is normal and a good thing!

With these things in check, you do not need to presoak the rockwool or "prep" the media.....your not doing anything by soaking rockwool as you will NEVER change the composite material which makes its PH 8.0.....if you did, it woud not be rockwool anymore basically.....plus there just no need.

YOu should NOT try and stabalize your PH anyhow...you want it to swing through the accepted ranges......the ONLY time you adjust PH is when it falls either below or above the accepted range.

Lots of people try and complicate this and it really is NOT complicated......they also try to list all these steps you must take like soaking the media for 24 hours..ect..ect.......none of that stuff is needed......

Concentrate on getting a good nutrient profile and making sure the most important thing is in check...YOUR ENVIROMENT!

Coupled with a decent nutrient formula with PH buffers and the rest will fall into place.

Peace!
 

Bullethead21

Well-Known Member
Forgot to mention also, the REAL reason you see growers who set there PH at 5.7 and the next morning find the PH at 8 is because the grower has NOT met the buffer capacity of the solution. Just becuase you add a little PH down and watch the meter drop to 5.7 does not mean anything at all really......like I said, to change the PH of a solution you must first meet the buffer capacity of the solution. This has nothing to do with the PH of the media used, and the media in return has NOTHING to do with a growers overnight rise in PH.....stop "prepping" your media and trying to change the PH value of it as your wasting your time trying to. Instead focus on your solution and finding out what the buffer capacity is of the water source your using.

The only reason you need to soak your media at all is to saturate it with your solution. Once this is achieved, your done soaking and can move on.

Peace!
 

Grewdat

Member
I have found the best way to stable PH is number one, use a formula that has good PH buffewrs in it....and number 2, balance your nutrient solution.......when your balance and nutrient profile is dialed in, you should see a natural slow rise in the PH as the roots uptake nutrients and leave behind as they eat, materials that cause PH to rise. This is normal and a good thing!

With these things in check, you do not need to presoak the rockwool or "prep" the media.....your not doing anything by soaking rockwool as you will NEVER change the composite material which makes its PH 8.0.....if you did, it woud not be rockwool anymore basically.....plus there just no need.

YOu should NOT try and stabalize your PH anyhow...you want it to swing through the accepted ranges......the ONLY time you adjust PH is when it falls either below or above the accepted range.

Lots of people try and complicate this and it really is NOT complicated......they also try to list all these steps you must take like soaking the media for 24 hours..ect..ect.......none of that stuff is needed......

Concentrate on getting a good nutrient profile and making sure the most important thing is in check...YOUR ENVIROMENT!

Coupled with a decent nutrient formula with PH buffers and the rest will fall into place.

Peace!
Have you ever used rockwool? If you do not presoak and flush the rockwool you will not be able to stabilize the medium. The rockwool itself has a naturally high PH. You MUST condition the cubes. That's why every single manufacturer of the rockwool will tell you to CONDITION THE CUBES. It's not a myth or a wives tale. It is absolutely true that the rockwool has a high PH and in order to stabilize the medium the medium must be conditioned. Otherwise those factors you mentioned that cause ph to rise will have help from the medium.

If you do not condition - Your 5.8 ph water goes into the RW. It immediately shoots up to 6.2 - 6.5 and will continue to rise overnight into the 7's and 8's. Now you either have to flush that shit out by top feeding or water through veg and into flower at 5.1 until you get the ph to where it needs to be. If you add beneficials during that time your PH is going to go up even higher.

It's not a myth that rockwool needs to be conditioned. Because you stuck a plant in rockwool once and didn't condition it doesn't mean that's what is best for the plant. Because your reservoir is sitting within acceptable range doesn't mean that inside the cube the conditions aren't ideal. Buy a rockwool syringe and check it yourself.
 

Bullethead21

Well-Known Member
Why not just disagree growdat?? Why do I have to be talking out of my ass? Is it possible others might know something you do not? Does that piss you off little man?? Do you always go around being a total dick when you disagree with something that someone says? Usuallu only children behave this way....so you better be careful or you will reveal your age there growdat....and I do not think they allow children on this site!!!


Testing results of well over 28 years of rockwool and other media types say different and also you mis read or misunderstood ......please do not be so proud of your ignorance grewdat......maybe try and improve your reading comprehension skills......

And BTW, bacteria beneficials will make your PH lower not rise, fungi will make your PH rise.......and I am talking out of my ass?? ROFL!!
 

Grewdat

Member
Testing results of well over 28 years say different and also you mis read or misunderstood ......please do not be so proud of your ignorance grewdat......maybe try and improve your reading comprehension skills......

And BTW, beneficials will make your PH lower not rise.......and I am talking out of my ass?? ROFL!!
Why are you here spreading bad information. Beneficials raise the PH.. google it and read.

Rockwool has a naturally high ph which is why they need to be conditioned.. google it and read..

Where are these so called "tests"? Link one please. I have been in this industry since 1992 and used rockwool extensively for over a decade. I know wtf I am doing. Clearly you do not so just keep your idiotic advice to yourself until you actually learn what you are talking about.

This is why people hate rockwool. They do not properly condition it and run into problems during the grow. Why don't you contact Grodan and tell them that they don't know what they are doing because "28 years of testing" says so.

[video=youtube;RLyYY72mGKM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLyYY72mGKM&feature=player_embedded#![/video]
 

Bullethead21

Well-Known Member
The nutrient manufactuers also give bogus advice....ever try to follow the feed chart and realize they are WRONG and the actual amounts needed were much less in real life??

And I do not need to call Groden, as we do profressional product testing for them and have been for over 2 years now......

Like I said earlier, maybe you should try and increase your reading comprehension skills as you have misread or misunderstood what I am trying to convey......
 

Grewdat

Member
And it is a no brainer that you get your information from Google.......see I did it the old fashion way and actually went to school for botony and plant biology....NOT GOOGLE!!!
Maybe you should have gone for mineralology and then you would understand why rockwool needs to be conditioned.

You're just talking. Blah blah blah. You're not going to convince anyone that you have a degree in Botony or biology. Educated people don't talk the way you talk. A person educated on a subject should know something about the subject. Again you clearly do not. So how deep of a hole are you going to dig for yourself?
 

Grewdat

Member
Like I said...you just cant fix STUPID!!
Instead of throwing around insults why don't you prove your point as I did. You say there is 28 years of testing that proves me wrong so it should be easy to find that documentation and link it. I mean 28 years of test results proving me wrong? Where are they?
 

Grewdat

Member
What's a matter..no insults left to throw around.

Well listen up kiddo. While in college... yes, i actually did go to college, something I studied was psychology. And your behavior in this argument is indicative of someone who is "talking out of there ass"

And I quote

Name calling is a cognitive bias and a technique to promote propaganda. Propagandists use the name-calling technique to incite fears or arouse positive prejudices with the intent that invoked fear (based on fearmongering tactics) or trust will encourage those that read, see or hear propaganda to construct a negative opinion, in respect to the former, or a positive opinion, with respect to the latter, about a person, group, or set of beliefs or ideas that the propagandist would wish the recipients to believe. The method is intended to provoke conclusions and actions about a matter apart from an impartial examinations of the facts of the matter. When this tactic is used instead of an argument, name-calling is thus a substitute for rational, fact-based arguments against an idea or belief, based upon its own merits, and becomes an argumentum ad hominem.[1]

Check out what is underlined. This is why you are behaving the way you are. I understand this, as well as rockwool, and beneficial bacteria. As I said, I am a professional.
 

kushnotbush

Well-Known Member
LoL This is all so silly... I do have to say that as long as I have used Rockwool I have always "washed it" or "flushed it" because when you do you can actually see the limestone come out of it especially the big cubes. I am pretty sure that this is what initially can cause issues but after a while the media has been washed of the limestone and if your still having issues it's probably because your rockwool is too wet and causing growth of another kind... Just my experience gentlemen, not trying to fuel the fire. YMMV
 

Grewdat

Member
LoL This is all so silly... I do have to say that as long as I have used Rockwool I have always "washed it" or "flushed it" because when you do you can actually see the limestone come out of it especially the big cubes. I am pretty sure that this is what initially can cause issues but after a while the media has been washed of the limestone and if your still having issues it's probably because your rockwool is too wet and causing growth of another kind... Just my experience gentlemen, not trying to fuel the fire. YMMV
There is no fire m8. I'm glad you posted with your experience because you have experience with rockwool. If everyone spoke from experience this argumentum ad hominem never would have occurred and this thread wouldn't be littered with bad information.
 

Hobgoblit

Active Member
Wish I belonged to a site like that. This one is full of misinformation. In the beginning I ran in circles. Really big circles. Beginning to think these guys spread lies just to keep most from growing. Can you recommend a better site?
 
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