CMH, QB, or keep my HPS.

NukaKola

NukaKola

Well-Known Member
NukaKola

NukaKola

Well-Known Member
p0opstlnksal0t said:
Meijiu 240w board kits are like 150 shipped. They'll even custom make them with 90cri lm301b diodes and ELG meanwell drivers if you want to use smart controllers with 0-10v protocol
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Is the LM301H worth the additional cost? Should I go with the added Epistar or Cree 660nm's or UV/IR? Or just a full board of LM301B/H?
 
Gemtree

Gemtree

Well-Known Member
NukaKola said:
I've always used Hortilux or Ushio for bulbs. For as much as I pay on electricity, I don't know if it's wise to go with budget bulbs.
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I've used them all the last 15yrs and don't ever notice a difference. Still get a gpw. They might go bad quicker I change bulbs often
 
P

p0opstlnksal0t

Well-Known Member
mikeyboy2121 said:
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> I got this from our Samsung rep the other day:
>
> "The real story with the 301H is that they are identical to the 301B. They are just marketed to different markets and their data is presented accordingly. They both have the same photon or luminous efficacy (depends how you want to look at it). There is no tweaking or special phosphor used, the anti sulphurization coating and stronger bind wires (which is key in many harsher environments, but especially horticulture) is the exact same on both parts. But since they were gaining so much traction in the horticulture market with the 561c and 301b years back, they decided to cater specifically to that market and give them a unique data sheet that works for the specific industry; micromoles rather than lumens for the case of the 301H. "
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this is what i was able to dig up.

> Stephen from HLG has stated multiple times on podcasts that they are the SAME diodes-just marketing hype.

> Yeah, it's funny they say that, because every spec on the two LEDs is identical and Samsung hasn't provided any data or test results on SO2 protection. We don't use Samsung diodes, but I was talking to an American horticultural LED board manufacturer in Hong Kong last week who does use them and also said LM301B and LM301H were identical. He said there was no anti-sulfurization on the H model, and that Samsung were telling fibs.
>
> If the H model had separate protection, then this would obviously affect the flux bins - which are identical.

> As Green gene stated. The chips come off the SAME line and fork into two loads. One says H one says B. One box shows output in LUMENS for the main market, and the other (H) shows output in Umoles.
>
> Not similar diodes. THEY ARE THE EXACT SAME DIODE. Anti sulfurization coating is on them both.

im trying to find the actual podcast from stephen at HLG
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> check out page 6 of the 301b and 301h datasheets. the flux range for each flux bin for both chips is the same. also the spectral distribution charts on page 13 are identical. Am I missing something?
> https://cdn.samsung.com/led/file/resource/2019/04/Data_Sheet_LM301B_CRI80_Rev.7.2.pdf
> https://cdn.samsung.com/led/file/resource/2018/11/Data_Sheet_LM301H_CRI80_Rev.1.2.pdf
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Nizza

Nizza

Well-Known Member
2com said:
What climate are you in; is/would the heat of HID be a benefit?
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this guy hit the nail on the head
if you are going to have trouble keeping the leaf temperature up in the winter, try a mix of CMH + LED, then in the summer swap the CMH and go full LED

Led's put off almost the same heat, the difference is that the heat leaves from the back of the diode and lacks infrared. Infrared heat is what heats up the leaves and will help you achieve better VPD.

The BTU output of both is the same it is just the direction that heat travels, and the LEDS are dimmable and don't require frequent bulb changes.

If I were you and I had that space I'd do the combo to start with

you can also do HPS+ LED as well, instead of buying the CMH
 
CannaOnerStar

CannaOnerStar

Well-Known Member
Nothing fattens up the buds like HPS(if you dont count the sun ofc).

CMH is not the optimal flowering spectrum, HPS is better for that, CMH works best for veg. However i have heard some swear on HPS + CMH. According to them HPS fattens up the buds and CMH adds to frosting.

So yea, i say stick to HPS and add one CMH there along with them or just swap your MH to CMH.
 
A

Apalchen

Well-Known Member
CannaOnerStar said:
Nothing fattens up the buds like HPS(if you dont count the sun ofc).

CMH is not the optimal flowering spectrum, HPS is better for that, CMH works best for veg. However i have heard some swear on HPS + CMH. According to them HPS fattens up the buds and CMH adds to frosting.

So yea, i say stick to HPS and add one CMH there along with them or just swap your MH to CMH.
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I have to disagree, i've flowered under both for years. CMH grown bud comes out slightly better than hps. Yields are comparable or better than air cooled single ended hps watt for watt.

That being said I went with de hps, in my new rooms as nothing can beat the yield per sq ft. The de lights cover a large area and penetrate deep into canopy. The quality difference is marginal in my opinion. I do plan to add some cmh as supplemental after I add another mini split.

I've grown with the combo of hps and CMH and have to say the plants that get good coverage from both lights do better than either of the lights by themselves. That being said it's hard to get a good spread of coverage from both lights in a small space.
 
CannaOnerStar

CannaOnerStar

Well-Known Member
Apalchen said:
I have to disagree, i've flowered under both for years. CMH grown bud comes out slightly better than hps. Yields are comparable or better than air cooled single ended hps watt for watt.

That being said I went with de hps, in my new rooms as nothing can beat the yield per sq ft. The de lights cover a large area and penetrate deep into canopy. The quality difference is marginal in my opinion. I do plan to add some cmh as supplemental after I add another mini split.

I've grown with the combo of hps and CMH and have to say the plants that get good coverage from both lights do better than either of the lights by themselves. That being said it's hard to get a good spread of coverage from both lights in a small space.
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Well i looked at this quite closely, but have not tested myself. Based on every comparison i found, they said that CMH gives better quality, but doesent swell up the buds in the end as well. If i remember right CMH lacks the far red spectrums that HPS has and also HPS has better red colors in general, which are good for fattening up the buds. So it makes sense in theory as well. Maybe you had better testing setup than others and managed to make your testing show the real nature of it, i dunno, but i find it bit hard to believe based on this info i have, because so many who also tested this say differently about yields.

Single HPS that has the power of 2 CMHs also penetrates better according to physics, so in theory and also based on peoples tests, CMH will leave the bit shaded buds more leafy as well. Or maybe the thing with CMH is that it only fattens the buds well that are close enough and in general not fattening that well could be about the lack of penetration? Which ofc is only an issue with some styles of growing and not in others
 
Nizza

Nizza

Well-Known Member
Psyphish said:
CMH + LED is the best combo for quality that I've tried, but QB LEDs yield really well for the wattage.
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I haven't tried it but from research this seems to be the best. The only obstacle is lighting distance, a CMH needs to be much further away than most LEDS are designed to be. This results in the CMH's light being blocked by the LEDS. A solution to this is a high powered LED that is supposed to be mounted further away.

One LED light I have seen that is designed like this is growlightaustralia's "High lights"
Not too sure if other light designers have came up with an LED that can be mounted at the same height as the CMH
QB's sound better than quantums for this application because you don't have such a large panel in the way of the CMH
 
CannaOnerStar

CannaOnerStar

Well-Known Member
Nizza said:
I haven't tried it but from research this seems to be the best. The only obstacle is lighting distance, a CMH needs to be much further away than most LEDS are designed to be. This results in the CMH's light being blocked by the LEDS. A solution to this is a high powered LED that is supposed to be mounted further away.

One LED light I have seen that is designed like this is growlightaustralia's "High lights"
Not too sure if other light designers have came up with an LED that can be mounted at the same height as the CMH
QB's sound better than quantums for this application because you don't have such a large panel in the way of the CMH
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There are tons of different types of lenses you can put on COBs at least if you DIY. Different lenses gives different spread for light and thus can control how far the light should be. But CMH should not be as far as HPS afaik.
 
2

2com

Well-Known Member
NukaKola said:
I'm in SoCal and will be running lights on during nighttime due to lower temps and lower electricity rates. Outside nighttime temps average between 55-70F. I have an A/C that is mainly used for the lights-off period during the day when temps get into the 90's outside. I plan to supplement CO2 in the future but for now everything is primarily air-cooled.

I'm not too concerned about temps, other than maybe it not being warm enough with the LED's as I don't want to use a heater. I think if I dial back my fans on colder nights it could keep temps up with the LED's.
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Nice.
In that case, I'll just mention that I hear very good things about mixing the two (led and cmh). @Chip Green Does this, I think.
-I see others have mentioned this combo (or combining led with hid), I'd consider this as an option.
 
JoeBlow5823

JoeBlow5823

Well-Known Member
Apalchen said:
That being said I went with de hps, in my new rooms as nothing can beat the yield per sq ft. The de lights cover a large area and penetrate deep into canopy. The quality difference is marginal in my opinion. I do plan to add some cmh as supplemental after I add another mini split.
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DE for the WIN!
 
Doug Dawson

Doug Dawson

Well-Known Member
mikeyboy2121 said:
LED technology is already better. You're not up to speed on the latest tech. It's here now.

The quantum boards are good but running multiple bars with give you better efficiency. Like the kingbrite quantum bars or the spyder/gavita 1700e clones.
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You say it is better but it will keep getting better as time goes along. I find the big issue with the new LED lights (the good ones) is the ridiculous price of them. Guess it depends on what you are after and if you can deal with heat from MH/HPS. I don't disagree that LED lights have come far, I just cannot justify spending such a large amount. The mark up's on these lights is huge, if the companies would stop gouging people so badly they would likely sell many more of them.
 
PadawanWarrior

PadawanWarrior

Well-Known Member
Nizza said:
I haven't tried it but from research this seems to be the best. The only obstacle is lighting distance, a CMH needs to be much further away than most LEDS are designed to be. This results in the CMH's light being blocked by the LEDS. A solution to this is a high powered LED that is supposed to be mounted further away.

One LED light I have seen that is designed like this is growlightaustralia's "High lights"
Not too sure if other light designers have came up with an LED that can be mounted at the same height as the CMH
QB's sound better than quantums for this application because you don't have such a large panel in the way of the CMH
Click to expand...
That's a good point, but I just turn down the LED's a bit.
 
A

Apalchen

Well-Known Member
CannaOnerStar said:
Well i looked at this quite closely, but have not tested myself. Based on every comparison i found, they said that CMH gives better quality, but doesent swell up the buds in the end as well. If i remember right CMH lacks the far red spectrums that HPS has and also HPS has better red colors in general, which are good for fattening up the buds. So it makes sense in theory as well. Maybe you had better testing setup than others and managed to make your testing show the real nature of it, i dunno, but i find it bit hard to believe based on this info i have, because so many who also tested this say differently about yields.

Single HPS that has the power of 2 CMHs also penetrates better according to physics, so in theory and also based on peoples tests, CMH will leave the bit shaded buds more leafy as well. Or maybe the thing with CMH is that it only fattens the buds well that are close enough and in general not fattening that well could be about the lack of penetration? Which ofc is only an issue with some styles of growing and not in others
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I don't think an open 315cmh will yield as well as an air cooled 600 hps. I think 2 of the 315 cmh will out yield the 600 hps and be better quality. I have only run air cooled 600 watt hps, but I must say they aren't my favorite lights even though I ran em for years. 1000 watt hps single ended or double ended in an open reflector can't be beat for penetration and ease of getting large yields per sq ft.

If you have a small space though the cmh is super user friendly, relatively low heat, a bit better quality. But you do have to adjust your growing style to maximize yield. You need to use a trellis and spread the tops out and even, and then you only leave about 1.5 ft of canopy, maybe a bit more depending on watts per sq ft. The CMH spectrum produces my favorite bud as far as looks, terps, and frost. I don't think you can yield as much per sq ft as with a se 1k hps in an open reflector, but you can definitely yield as much per watt it just takes more sq ft. The DE HPS 1k is hard to match as it covers a bigger area and yields better than the SE 1k HPS, but can't be run in a small spot. That's why I recommend cmh to most guys I know that are setting up small personal grows. I have limited experience with LEDs though.
 
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