Classic case of calmag deficiency? (Pics)

Dr. Who said:

I think we're going to get along just fine! I have respect for you, and your opinions!

As for the video.....That was very interesting! SOG - bigger plants then I used to do but, I see the point! Who says an old dog can't learn new tricks? Damn! I fell for what I bitch at.....logic does not go hand in hand with growing! Got myself...

I'm so interested, Think I might get my old 2x2 dial in ebb&flow system set up and play with this. Already testing some synthetic's after seeing what some friends are doing with it. This should go well with that and actually should be tried with the line work being done. Gives me more knowledge on the Nute line to actually share.

In reality, I haven't done any hydro in 6 years but, a cpl of DWC buckets for shits and giggles.....Used to love Rockwool and SOG..

Thanks for the heads up on the Panda film trick (notice the video post was this April).....I'll be adding that to the testing.

To the OP - Do what johnei says with the film over the tray!

Click to expand...

Yes I plan to

I researched what he said and found those videos. I welcome all suggestions and love to hear every ones take on topics but I always do my own research on the information presented! I never just act based off what someone says without double checking first. Though its reassuring getting the thumbs up from you as well because now i was researching the negative affects of covering with the plastic lol.

Either of you got a clue what that brown stuff i posted a pic a few posts above is? I think it might be part of my problem, if not the whole thing.

@hot cheetos

You mentioned something about roots outside of the cubes.....I said, I've experienced that.

The rest of the story would be that when that did happen. The whole tray was shaded and as the roots grew out of the cubes. They retained the moisture to keep them "viable" by being there.
The tray was pretty blocked off by the the foliage of the plant, and had no fans running at that level. Simple guess would be reduced evaporation below the foliage to allow the roots to hold the moisture and grow....
This was in that 2x2 "dial in" tray....I have used root mats in larger size ops.

Looks like typical brown algae. You get that a lot when you have too many organic compounds in the water and the nitrate levels go off the charts. Same thing can happen in fish tanks.

You need to clean everything out and use some nice, clean filtered water...preferably RO.

..with H2O2 added to fizz away bad shit.

Dr. Who said:

@hot cheetos

You mentioned something about roots outside of the cubes.....I said, I've experienced that.

The rest of the story would be that when that did happen. The whole tray was shaded and as the roots grew out of the cubes. They retained the moisture to keep them "viable" by being there.
The tray was pretty blocked off by the the foliage of the plant, and had no fans running at that level. Simple guess would be reduced evaporation below the foliage to allow the roots to hold the moisture and grow....
This was in that 2x2 "dial in" tray....I have used root mats in larger size ops.

Click to expand...

Are you referring to my latest post? I wasn't talking about the roots. On page 4 i posted a couple pics. One of some brown spots on the RW and the other of a napkin with a bunch of brown/orange residue.

TacoMac said:

Looks like typical brown algae. You get that a lot when you have too many organic compounds in the water and the nitrate levels go off the charts. Same thing can happen in fish tanks.

You need to clean everything out and use some nice, clean filtered water...preferably RO.

Click to expand...

Hm, interesting. Thats what i was leaning toward. I made an account on a fish forum LOL and talked to the guys there about brown algae after researching and finding the same looking thing in aquariums. Apparently they are diatoms that grow due to silica. "Brown algae is also sometimes refered to as silica algae."

I do use RO. I had this happen a couple weeks ago and purge cleaned all my reservoirs with soap then h202 then bleach. I don't understand why it keeps coming back. Initially it was there because i didnt have a chiller and my temps were like 80*. Now the water is a chill 65-68 and it still happened. Could the nutes have gone bad and cause this?


Can this "typical brown algae" harm plants is it bad for them?

hot cheetos said:

Hm, interesting. Thats what i was leaning toward. I made an account on a fish forum LOL and talked to the guys there about brown algae after researching and finding the same looking thing in aquariums. Apparently they are diatoms that grow due to silica.

I do use RO. I had this happen a couple weeks ago and purge cleaned all my reservoirs with soap then h202 then bleach. I don't understand why it keeps coming back. Initially it was there because i didnt have a chiller and my temps were like 80*. Now the water is a chill 65-68 and it still happened. Could the nutes have gone bad and cause this?


Can this "typical brown algae" harm plants is it bad for them?

Click to expand...

The primary culprit in aquariums is fish waste and over feeding. It's the same in hydroponic systems. If your nutrients are in fact organic, then they've gone south and that's what's causing it. If they're actually mineral based nutrients, then that's not your problem...you've got the compounds coming from someplace else: quite possibly the very blocks your plants are growing in.

It's not going to harm your plants per se, but it will definitely clog up the works and shut down good water flow which will snowball into more serious issues down the road.

TacoMac said:

The primary culprit in aquariums is fish waste and over feeding. It's the same in hydroponic systems. If your nutrients are in fact organic, then they've gone south and that's what's causing it. If they're actually mineral based nutrients, then that's not your problem...you've got the compounds coming from someplace else: quite possibly the very blocks your plants are growing in.

It's not going to harm your plants per se, but it will definitely clog up the works and shut down good water flow which will snowball into more serious issues down the road.

Click to expand...

The brown stuffs origin is my reservoir. I know this because i see the brown stuff in there. The nutrients are dynagro so they are synthetic. Before when i had this, i added h2o2 and the water cleared up from being orange back to being green. But all the brown residue was on the floor of the reservoir. Also, a day after applying the h2o2 there was orange/brown foam around the edges of the waterline.

Well, if it's that bad a problem, I would run down to the pet store and get some brown algae killer. Tetra makes one that's around 4 dollars and works quite well. You'll just need to be sure to flush your system before harvest. It's safe for plants and fish alike.

I've never cured a plant issue with the addition of anything but water to the roots

hot cheetos said:

The brown stuffs origin is my reservoir. I know this because i see the brown stuff in there. The nutrients are dynagro so they are synthetic. Before when i had this, i added h2o2 and the water cleared up from being orange back to being green. But all the brown residue was on the floor of the reservoir. Also, a day after applying the h2o2 there was orange/brown foam around the edges of the waterline.

Click to expand...

Reading your description of the situation, my first thought is:
That could be the dead left over 'gunk/dead organisms' byproduct of the H2O2 killing all the bad shit. Let me explain in case you don't know the precise mechanics how H2O2 actually works, just to be thorough:

H2O2

Water is H2O = 2 hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

To create Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2), a second oxygen atom is forced inside the moleculer bond so it now has 2 hydrogen atoms and 2 oxygen atoms making up a new unstable molecule (H2O2).

It is extremely hard to produce and very expensive because the extra oxygen atom does not want to stay in place, it's a very unstable molecular setup. It wants to release that extra oxygen atom and turn back into 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom stable molecular setup, water (H2O).

As soon as H2O2 comes into contact with any organic matter it releases that extra oxygen atom in a very explosive molecular destruction/explosion oxidizing, fizzing, and nuetralizing whatever organic material it made contact with. The byproduct of this reaction is plain ole water, H2O left over.

And this is why it is good and safe to use to clean the whole grow room and your house and everything, it destroys any bad shit and just leaves behind water you can wipe away.

In a hydroponic setup, it will fizz away and oxidize any bad micro organisms releasing that extra O(oxygen) atom in the process and just leave behind water, so it's very effective at increasing dissolved oxygen levels in a hydrooponic tank while keeping things sterile at the same time, but also because of this, it's not a very good long lasting oxygen source for a hydroponic resevoir, it all turns back to water very quickly and no more explosive oxygen releasing oxidizing power, you'd have to keep adding more.

pphheeww...

...so that's why my first thought was, if you have nasty gunk at bottom of tank and that stuff on the cubes after a H2O2 application, it may be left over dead organic shit.

Probably have to repeat the H2O2 application and clean and fill new tanks in between a few times to fully clean out all the old dead shit, and kill anything remaining so it doesn't take hold again is what I'm thinking.

Johnei said:

Reading your description of the situation, my first thought is:
That could be the dead left over 'gunk/dead organisms' byproduct of the H2O2 killing all the bad shit. Let me explain in case you don't know the precise mechanics how H2O2 actually works, just to be thorough:

H2O2

Water is H2O = 2 hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

To create Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2), a second oxygen atom is forced inside the moleculer bond so it now has 2 hydrogen atoms and 2 oxygen atoms making up a new unstable molecule (H2O2).

It is extremely hard to produce and very expensive because the extra oxygen atom does not want to stay in place, it's a very unstable molecular setup. It wants to release that extra oxygen atom and turn back into 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom stable molecular setup, water (H2O).

As soon as H2O2 comes into contact with any organic matter it releases that extra oxygen atom in a very explosive molecular destruction/explosion oxidizing, fizzing, and nuetralizing whatever organic material it made contact with. The byproduct of this reaction is plain ole water, H2O left over.

And this is why it is good and safe to use to clean the whole grow room and your house and everything, it destroys any bad shit and just leaves behind water you can wipe away.

In a hydroponic setup, it will fizz away and oxidize any bad micro organisms releasing that extra O(oxygen) atom in the process and just leave behind water, so it's very effective at increasing dissolved oxygen levels in a hydrooponic tank while keeping things sterile at the same time, but also because of this, it's not a very good long lasting oxygen source for a hydroponic resevoir, it all turns back to water very quickly and no more explosive oxygen releasing oxidizing power, you'd have to keep adding more.

pphheeww...

...so that's why my first thought was, if you have nasty gunk at bottom of tank and that stuff on the cubes after a H2O2 application, it may be left over dead organic shit.

Probably have to repeat the H2O2 application and clean and fill new tanks in between a few times to fully clean out all the old dead shit, and kill anything remaining so it doesn't take hold again is what I'm thinking.

Click to expand...

Great explanation! So need to add h2o2 every day to the same nutrient batch and it wouldn't be increasing the dosage? I won't be overdosing with h2o2 because the h2o2 is already broken down to water now? I want to add it every day but I didn't want to reach too high of a concentration of the peroxide that might be at the level of harming the plants. But every time I add it, it disappears after a while, correct?

Yes it disapears, and depends what concentration you use, which I cannot assist you there as I forgot the measurements, I haven't used H2O2 in a while and when I did I had 35% H2O2, which it's status has actually changed since then and is now illegal at that concentration where I am controlled by food n drug so I dilluited the 35% to certain rate, 3% or 6% or maybe neither, I cannot remember. Without specialized equipment it is difficult to measure what is in the tank and rate of decay. This may be achieved with the use of a dissolved oxygen meter seeing when DO levels stop rising/fluctuating and level out along those lines, and you know it's not reacting anymore and is all water and finished. With this in mind, I would probably only use it every approx. 3days. In trouble times, when there is a lot of organic material that you know the H2o2 will be used up faster, can add more frequently than that.

All just opinoins and blahblah bro.

(If I remember correctly, this probably doesn't help, but I used to add 1.5ml/gal of the 35% H2O2. I am 99% sure that was the amount and worked well in hydro rez.)

(35% H2O2; If it touches your skin will oxidize it and turn it white, for a few hours. Stings like a bitch. Good for wounds etc. )

H202 at 10% sprayed on yellow toenail fungus, and 3days later toenails are white and shiny brand new. For Realz.
Gross I know. lol
..but awesome.

Johnei said:

Reading your description of the situation, my first thought is:
That could be the dead left over 'gunk/dead organisms' byproduct of the H2O2 killing all the bad shit. Let me explain in case you don't know the precise mechanics how H2O2 actually works, just to be thorough:

H2O2

Water is H2O = 2 hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

To create Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2), a second oxygen atom is forced inside the moleculer bond so it now has 2 hydrogen atoms and 2 oxygen atoms making up a new unstable molecule (H2O2).

It is extremely hard to produce and very expensive because the extra oxygen atom does not want to stay in place, it's a very unstable molecular setup. It wants to release that extra oxygen atom and turn back into 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom stable molecular setup, water (H2O).

As soon as H2O2 comes into contact with any organic matter it releases that extra oxygen atom in a very explosive molecular destruction/explosion oxidizing, fizzing, and nuetralizing whatever organic material it made contact with. The byproduct of this reaction is plain ole water, H2O left over.

And this is why it is good and safe to use to clean the whole grow room and your house and everything, it destroys any bad shit and just leaves behind water you can wipe away.

In a hydroponic setup, it will fizz away and oxidize any bad micro organisms releasing that extra O(oxygen) atom in the process and just leave behind water, so it's very effective at increasing dissolved oxygen levels in a hydrooponic tank while keeping things sterile at the same time, but also because of this, it's not a very good long lasting oxygen source for a hydroponic resevoir, it all turns back to water very quickly and no more explosive oxygen releasing oxidizing power, you'd have to keep adding more.

pphheeww...

...so that's why my first thought was, if you have nasty gunk at bottom of tank and that stuff on the cubes after a H2O2 application, it may be left over dead organic shit.

Probably have to repeat the H2O2 application and clean and fill new tanks in between a few times to fully clean out all the old dead shit, and kill anything remaining so it doesn't take hold again is what I'm thinking.

Click to expand...

Yuppers - back to that H2O2 formula I gave back a few pages...

That was a good post, why did you delete it?

to the post that was in this space, just moments ago..

I will use 10year old bottle of gh 3part now because you erased your post!!!

1) I think it's Mites and you are over watering early on (one can cause the other). Dont water those blocks so often until new growth shows up after transplant. Watch your blocks closely. They shouldn't always be heavy with water, but alternate between wet and semi dry. Roots only.grow when the medium drys up a bit.

2) how long did you soak your rockwool? It could be that the lime content is too high from not soaking them from 5.0 - 5.5

3) pH to 5.0 and over the next two weeks let the pH creep up to 6.2. this way you will hit more nutrient absorbtion points.


4) It could be the old nutrients, they lose moisture on the shelf and become more concentrated. Get a new bottle and save yourself the headache.

5) flush with ph'd clearx and hygrozyme to break down them old roots.

6) switch to cns17(grow Bloom and ripe) + calmag + liquid karma. It has a pH buffer so you aren't busting your ass ph'ing so much

Ok, this post is better. You win!

A+

Johnei said:

That was a good post, why did you delete it?

to the post that was in this space, just moments ago..

I will use 10year old bottle of gh 3part now because you erased your post!!!

Click to expand...

Buddha's Belly said:

1) I think it's Mites and you are over watering early on (one can cause the other). Dont water those blocks so often until new growth shows up after transplant. Watch your blocks closely. They shouldn't always be heavy with water, but alternate between wet and semi dry. Roots only.grow when the medium drys up a bit.

2) how long did you soak your rockwool? It could be that the lime content is too high from not soaking them from 5.0 - 5.5

3) pH to 5.0 and over the next two weeks let the pH creep up to 6.2. this way you will hit more nutrient absorbtion points.


4) It could be the old nutrients, they lose moisture on the shelf and become more concentrated. Get a new bottle and save yourself the headache.

5) flush with ph'd clearx and hygrozyme to break down them old roots.

6) switch to cns17(grow Bloom and ripe) + calmag + liquid karma. It has a pH buffer so you aren't busting your ass ph'ing so much

Click to expand...

1)Ive looked many times, i haven't found any mites unless theyre inside the rockwool. Ive inspected the surface and underside of the blocks as well. I don't believe i water too much, I really think im not watering often enough. They are light more often than heavy.

2) I soaked them for almost 2 days in 5.5.

3) Really? Isn't 5.0 way too low? What do you mean let it creep? I drain to waste if you meant the reservoir ph creep.

4) I bought new bottles.

5) I flushed with nearly 100% runoff recently with their general food dosage, about 1.5ec. I made a fresh batch of 25 gallons of food and i ran all of it through them. I realize this isn't much of a flush but I wanted to clear up any build up if there was any, without lowering the food strength because theyre all getting lime/neon green now. And i did it by hand because i wanted to try out the hand watering again to properly saturate all the cubes. If I ran all those 25 gallons through them using the drippers they would probably be half or a third as heavy.

At this point my guess is im way underwatering them. The one main difference from the veg room to the flower room was the fact that i hand watered in the veg room and im using drippers in the flower room. When i hand watered, the cubes would be about 3-4 times as heavy! With the drippers, they are 3-4 times lighter than they used to be. But i would hand water twice a week whereas now i drip 4 times in a 24 hour period. But again, the cubes are WAY lighter than they used to be.

My guess comes from a reference....i have 3 runts in the flower room who look just as good as they used to and don't show any of the ill effects that all the rest of the plants do. These 3 runts DO NOT have drippers and I hand water them every few days or so. They get much heavier and stay heavy for a few days until they are about half the weight, and ill hand water them again, and so on. So my guess is they aren't getting enough food and thats why theyre getting lighter in color because theyre starving!?


PICS:


1) The limpness is weird...it doesn't really feel like an under-watered limpness because when i try to push it up by the leaf stems, they are firm in the down position and dont want to get pushed up. But they aren't curled up like the way over-watering does. However, after giving them a thorough watering, they perked back up. Still unsure about whats going on.

2) WTF is this stupid ass leaf? The hell is this retarded thing?! So annoying i wanna burn it lol. I have a few that look like this. The rest look normal. Its got such large serrations.

3) Roots seem okay, i think?

4&5) If found about 3 of these bugs on my yellow stickies. Ones butt is swollen the other isn't but they look like the same type of bug.

6) After giving them the 25 gallons of 1.5ec "flush" last night, i have brown serrations today. Potassium deficiency/lockout?

6) One thing i can for sure confirm is that my older leaves have not been affected AT ALL through all of this bullshit. Theyve stayed 100% the same and perfectly healthy. Its only all my new growths that are affected by whatever problem there is.

I HATE chasing problems man. Always leads to more shit.

After flushing heavily by hand with a watering wand with the 700ppm food i have lots of serration edges browned and no improvements in color. It isn't nute burn though because none of the tips have changed color So i guess that wasn't the answer. Next thing im going to try is flushing with 250ppm and slowly upping PPM 100 at a time to see if that will help. I have a bad feeling its going to make things worse. I dont know wtf is going on.


I think there is a really good case built here with all the pics ive provided and all the very specific symptoms. Can't anyone identify what the issue is here for sure? Old leaves stayed fresh and green but all new growths are very light green in color...that by itself has got to mean something, right? Like if it was nitrogen lockout...would the old leaves remain green? Or if i have K deficiency or lockout, would it affect the older leaves or the new leaves? The lower ones or the higher up ones?, etc, etc etc....I think there is enough info to narrow the answer down.


Pic showing the browning of the serrations
Lower growth all seems fine except if its new growth its lime green like everywhere else
Old leaves completely unaffected.

Listen bro, I don't even care what you already did, listen to me very carefuly and I will help you.

You are in rockwool correct, it does not matter what is wrong with the plant, this is what you do and they are fixed!

You need gh 3 part, and only use the Micro bottle and the Bloom bottle. you mix them 1:2 ratio exactly.
1part Micro
2part Bloom

set ph to 5.7

set EC to 1.5 yes, 1.5 (Use EC meter, not ppm bullshit.)

water not freezing

now water from the top like mad man, slowly letting it go through, and again and again, dont test anything, run more and more of this solution through them and then, leave them

they are now fixed.

put the light down on them and set the new tank exactly the same formula.

If your next watering is too late, if ANY roots die back or the cube gets too crusty dry, this will happen again.

If you water too soon again, and everytime when you water always watering too soon keeping them overly saturated, this will happen again.


Assuming your water schedule is on point,
these next days after doing this will tell you exactly what they want or dont want by observing the EC rise or fall, and the pH rise or fall.

If the EC drops and pH goes up, they want more EC, 100% !!!

if the EC rises, and the pH drops, EC 1.5 is a tad too much for them and you lower the EC by THAT much, what you observed rising. understand? grow bro.

IF the pH is staying pretty stable, and the water level is dropping, and EC is staying stable as the water level drops, you got it. they are properly feeding the desired amount.

Now, the super sweet spot even a little better than this is.....
Listen to this:
Nutrients are all acidic! when you add them to water the pH goes down, if the plant is sucking up nutrients from this water, the pH will rise, as EC falls with the water level, showing they are drinking well. do you understand. nutrients are acidic.

So,

when the EC is staying precicely where you set it
and the water level is dropping as the days pass showing they are really drinking the water down.
AND the pH is not steady perfect, but day by day the pH is slightly rising... this is the super sweet spot, showing you the balance is just that tiny bit over the line where pH rises, as acid drops(nutrients.) equal to the water dropping showing they are feeding.

This is the way brother.

It is good to just leave it alone, dont add acid pH down to keep it PRECICELY at 5.7, once you find the sweet spot, just leave them alone for days until the tank hits 6.1 then you begin back at 5.7 again. this drift is extremly beneficial for the hydro plants to optain more nutrients through the pH range completely and for the best growth rates.


This is all I have to help you. If you follow exactly what I say it is impossible to fail.
Only Micro:Bloom in 1:2ratio @pH 5.7 @EC1.5 and begin observations.

I hope you understand, I am truly trying to help you completely and that you don't take my 'tone' in the wrong way.


Good Growing! <4u


--Edit:
Water from the top by hand the next 2 watering like that, then rely on the tank again.