Chimera on the myth of cubing (backcrossing) From MrNice.nl

SxIstew

Well-Known Member
More useful information for those of you who enjoy studying up on your breeding.
Another site that is NOT my work. Just information that can be useful to some of us.






Backcross Breeding –
A type of breeding that involves repeated crossing of progeny with one of the original parental genotypes; cannabis breeders most often cross progeny to the mother plant. This parent is known as the recurrent parent. The non-recurrent parent is called the donor parent. More widely, any time a generation is crossed to a previous generation, it is a form of backcross breeding. Backcross breeding has become one of the staple methods clandestine cannabis breeders use, mainly because it is a simple, rapid method when using greenhouses or grow
rooms, and requires only small populations. The principle goal of backcross breeding is to create a population of individuals derived mainly from the genetics of one single parent (the recurrent parent).

The donor parent is chosen based on a trait of interest that the recurrent parent lacks; the idea is to introgress this trait into the backcross population, such that the new population is comprised mainly of genetics from the recurrent parent, but also contains the genes responsible for the trait of interest from the donor parent.

The backcross method is a suitable scheme for adding new desirable traits to a mostly ideal, relatively true-breeding genotype. When embarking on a backcross breeding plan, the recurrent parent should be a highly acceptable or nearly ideal genotype (for example, an existing commercial cultivar or inbred line). The ideal traits considered for introgression into the new seed line should be simply inherited and easily scored for phenotype. The best donor parent must possess the desired trait, but should not be seriously deficient in other traits. Backcross line production is repeatable, if the same parents are used.

Backcross breeding is best used when adding simply inherited dominant traits that can easily be identified in the progeny of each generation (example 1). Recessive traits are more difficult to select for in backcross breeding, since their expression is masked by dominance in each backcross to the recurrent parent. An additional round of open pollination or sib-mating is needed after each backcross generation, to expose homozygous-recessive plants. Individuals showing the recessive condition are selected from F2 segregating generations and backcrossed to the recurrent parent (see example 2).

Example 1– Backcrossing: Incorporating a dominant trait

Step1– Recurrent Parent × Donor Parent
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V
F1 Hybrid generation

Step 2 – Select desirable plants showing dominant trait, and hybridize selected plants to recurrent parent. The generation produced is denoted BC1 (some cannabis breeders break from botanical convention and denote this generation Bx1. BC1= Bx1).

Step 3 – Select plants from BC1 and hybridize with the recurrent parent; the resulting generation is denoted BC2.

Step 4 – Select plants from BC2 and hybridize with the recurrent parent; the resulting generation is denoted BC3.
.

Example 2 Backcrossing: Incorporating a recessive trait

Step1– Recurrent Parent × Donor Parent
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V
F1 Hybrid generation

Step 2 – Select desirable plants, and create an F2 population via full sib-mating.

Step 3 – Select plants showing the desired recessive trait in the F2 generation, then hybridize selected F2-recessive plants to the recurrent parent. The generation produced is denoted BC1.

Step 3 – Select plants from BC1, and create a generation of F2 plants via sib-mating; the resulting generation can be denoted BC1F2

Step 4 – Select desirable BC1F2 plants showing the recessive condition, and hybridize with the recurrent parent; the resulting generation is denoted BC2.

Step 5 – Select plants from BC2, and create an F2 population via sib-mating; denote the resulting generation BC2F2.

Step 6 – Select plants showing the recessive condition from the BC2F2 generation, and hybridize to the recurrent parent; the resulting generation is denoted BC3.

Step 7 – Grow out BC3, select and sib-mate the most ideal candidates to create an F2 population, where plants showing the recessive condition are then selected and used as a basis for a new inbred, or open-pollinated seed line.

This new generation created from the F2 is a population that consists of, on average, ~93.7% of genes from the recurrent parent, and only ~6.3% of genes leftover from the donor parent. Most importantly, one should note that since only homozygous-recessives were chosen for mating in the BC3F2 generation, the entire resulting BC3F3 generation is homozygous for the recessive trait, and breeds true for this recessive trait. Our new population meets our breeding objective. It is a population derived mainly from the genetics of the recurrent parent, yet breeds true for our introgressed recessive trait.


Backcross derived lines are expected to be well-adapted to the environment in which they will be grown, which is another reason backcrossing is often used by cannabis breeders who operate indoors. Indoor grow rooms are easily replicated all over the world, so the grower is able to grow the plants in a similar environment in which they were bred. Progeny therefore need less extensive field-testing by the breeder across a wide range of environments.

If two or more characters are to be introgressed into a new seed line, these would usually be tracked in separate backcross programs, and the individual products would be combined in a final set of crosses after the new populations have been created by backcrossing.

The backcross scheme has specific drawbacks, however. When the recurrent parent is not very true-breeding, the resulting backcross generations segregate, and many of the traits deemed desirable to the line fail to be reproduced reliably. Another limitation of the backcross is that the “improved” variety differs only slightly from the recurrent parent (e.g., one trait). If multiple traits are to be introgressed into the new population, other techniques such as inbreeding or recurrent selection may be more rewarding.

Hope that's a little more clear......
Respectfully,
-Chimera
 

SxIstew

Well-Known Member
Yes. but remember it's never as simple as it seems. lol.....


And that is basically a breeders opinion on the subject as well as his setup step by step..

No beginning or end products to show, i can't say for sure he know's what he is doing. lol

Just info to read and take your own assessment of. :)

Take Care.

Be smart... never believe everything you read 100% :)
 

Pinworm

Well-Known Member
If this is the same Chimera that Cervantes talks about in his bible, I'm sure it's killer info.
 

SxIstew

Well-Known Member
That's the reason i posted it. because of his fame. HOWEVER. Swerve now has horrible genetics and is just as famous. lol
 

slowandsteady

Well-Known Member
Yes. but remember it's never as simple as it seems. lol.....


And that is basically a breeders opinion on the subject as well as his setup step by step..

No beginning or end products to show, i can't say for sure he know's what he is doing. lol

Just info to read and take your own assessment of. :)

Take Care.

Be smart... never believe everything you read 100% :)
but if its on the internet it got to be true right ? LOL thanks for the info just jokin with ya. Its a shame more of this type of info is not spread around instead of all the bashing that goes on.
 

OGEvilgenius

Well-Known Member
Chimera has a masters in genetics. It's more than just his opinion, there's objective fact laid out up there. The problem with BX'ing is that most plants are not homogeneous and most people are attempting to recreate plants that are clone only using BX'ing. Whereas BX'ing is actually more objectively useful in locking down 1 or 2 traits and then adding those traits to a larger breeding project.
 

SxIstew

Well-Known Member
I'm done bashing trolls. I find and report spam and posts against the rules of RIU. As a member it's only right that i help out in anyway i can. If the newest updated information is not posted or i can't find it on RIU, I will find it somewhere else and bring it in.


I never take claim to any of it. Just the fact that i brought the info here.
 
Far as I know Chimera never finished any cubing project. So he really wouldn't know why someone (like the Bros. Grimm) stopped at the 4th position... But I can tell you why, because we took the Thunderstruck clone to the 6th back cross cubing position... I can also tell you why DJ short, stopped short, (so to speak) with Blueberry... And that's because we created the first true, True Breeding strain, which was Wonderbud. "More alike then clones" use to be the comment on original Wonderbud seed.
 

MrEDuck

Well-Known Member
I don't have the experience to really comment. My book learning says that Chimera is correct. I've watched plenty of C99 grows and they are very similar ladies. Hopefully in a few years I'll have some of my own experience to contribute.
 

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
Great info once again stew, id rep ya but i cant!
But I can and did! +1

This info answers, or at least points me in the right direction as I am doing this very thing.

I'm on BC3 right now.

Back in 2008 I was gifted 4 seeds from a *hydro grow* with no name. Big whooo, but months later I finally planted them. All 4 popped and one got nailed by a cut worm. The others were 2 females and 1 male, so at least hermies weren't involved. The pheno's were stupid similar, the most obvious one being all the leaves were 3 bladed. There was also no smell, which is what caused me to stop growing years before (Williams Wonder >>> reeked). Still didn't know what the potency was and not overly impressed .... yet.

These were all outside and when pre flowers showed I invested enough for a T-12 set up, Clonex and rockwool. Like an idiot, the male got chopped. I didn't know then that pre flowers pollinate just fine. Found that out later on my own.

Turned out to be 2 hits&quit with no need for odor control. Still running the same strain 4 years later.

Good, but no seeds for backup and no idea where to get any or even what it's called. I call it Tres for the 3 bladed leaves and have never seen pics that look anything like it. For sure it is a pure or nearly pure Indica, but IDK.

A couple of years ago my kid popped a seed for 'his own' that grew just like a female. Nice tight internodes, bushy growth, but no pre flowers. We were both surprised putting it out in August when it popped balls. My kid was pissed, I had an idea.

My idea was to take this beautiful male, cross it onto Tres and then keep crossing male offspring back onto Tres however many times needed to get some nearly pure Tres seeds 'just in case'.

My question was: Even after back crossing 4-6x or whatever, would I still have to go through the whole cubing thing again with the siblings to get where I wanted? Or, would just the numerous back crossings do the trick?

I need to re read that whole thing again, several times I'd bet, but it is the gist of what I was wondering.

I'm going to pop a few seeds from BC3 and see if I can squeeze BC4 in before winter. Have clones going and Tres is always loaded with pre flowers.

BTW, pre flowers pollinate quite nicely and seeds will develop under an 18/6 light schedule. Makes life much more simple.

I've rambled enough for the moment.

Wet
 
Maybe this will help out... [video=youtube;eCGatIJOk1w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCGatIJOk1w&feature=c4-overview&list=UUWocT8AX12Je3cIvsblaymg[/video] My explanation of the breeding of T99
 

Lemon king

Well-Known Member
i have noticed there are various phenos amongst s1 female seeds, even if a plant is selfed there are still different phenos, is cloning it the only way of keeping that particular plant as is, with the same constant pheno?
 

MrEDuck

Well-Known Member
selfing will always produce variable results. several generations of breeding can come up with reasonably similar offspring but cloning is the only way to do it 100%
 

bigworm6969

Well-Known Member
chierma is suppose to be the man so the net says, im an idoit so let me try to understand this shit backcrossing is like inbreeding if you got 2 bad ass pitbulls 1mom and 1 dad and u mate them to have killer ass pups, you love the pups they r just what u want and u want to make them stronger and keep that same lineage around so you let ur best pup fuck its mom makeing that gentics that much more pure and stronger to its own unique gentics the more u back cross the best pups back to its mom the more pure or ibl u get, does anybody even understand this shit, i know people are going to be like what the fuck is he smokeing
 

MrEDuck

Well-Known Member
Backcrossing is a type of inbreeding commonly used in plant breeding. Its not the only type. Full and half sibling crosses are also inbreeding.
 

bigworm6969

Well-Known Member
yeah all them technical terms in the clarks boteny book has me all fucked up but slowly but surely im going to figure this shit out, i plan on makeing me more seeds of each tga strain i got right now and maybe a couple of crosses, thanks mr duck
 
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