Changes at Timber Grow Lights

wietefras

wietefras

Well-Known Member
Yodaweed said:
You might want to get some better charts or put some type of numbers on there that's difficult to make heads or tails of.

Bare COB's work great if you can keep your plants within a foot of your lights. They really have poor intensity when it comes to distance, after 18 inches with bare cob's the numbers really drop off quickly. Might work if your in a tight area with limited growth height...but that's not really the greatest way to grow...most quality grow rooms got ceilings 10-12 foot tall so they need lights that can broadcast 24 inches and further
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It's not about the numbers. It's about relative difference and clearly there is practically none between a big COB or a board. While distributed light produced by multiple COBs or led strips crush a board or single large COB.

Besides I put the charts with height lines next to it exactly like in the incorrect chart you posted.

Also:
- Light does not "drop off". It spreads.
- Height of a light source is related to distribution and number of light sources over an area. Which means that if you need a height greater than 18" you apparently need the light to spread further. So there is no issue there either.
 
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wietefras

wietefras

Well-Known Member
DET—PDX said:
Wait with the reflectors bare were substantially higher you mean right? I thought bare cobs produced more intense light, only ‘misguided’. I thought the whole point of the lense is to refract light in a more evenly distributed wavelength for the plants, but that must come at a cost of intensity. There is no way the same 2 lights would produce equal intensity PPFD if one had been lensed right?
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With reflectors or lenses you get less light. Apparently Timber measured 12% less with lenses and Malocan measured 15% less with reflectors.

DET—PDX said:
If for example you wanted to use quantum boards, you will indeed have many many points of light.
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With COBs you also have multiple points of light. A Cree CXB3590 contains 144 diodes. The only difference is that with a board they are slightly wider spaced than on a COB, but that slight extra spread is utterly insignificant at a height of 18". You move a 42" circle a few inches to the left and right and that's it.

The light from a board and a (bare) COB spread exactly the same way, because they have the same beam angle.
 
DET—PDX

DET—PDX

Active Member
wietefras said:
With reflectors or lenses you get less light. Apparently Timber measured 12% less with lenses and Malocan measured 15% less with reflectors.

With COBs you also have multiple points of light. A Cree CXB3590 contains 144 diodes. The only difference is that with a board they are slightly wider spaced than on a COB, but that slight extra spread is utterly insignificant at a height of 18". You move a 42" circle a few inches to the left and right and that's it.

The light from a board and a (bare) COB spread exactly the same way, because they have the same beam angle.
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I had no idea there were that many diodes, I knew so little about this light! I’ve only just recently done some reading on LED’s. Learning a lot thank you.
 
wietefras

wietefras

Well-Known Member
DET—PDX said:
I had no idea there were that many diodes, I knew so little about this light! I’ve only just recently done some reading on LED’s. Learning a lot thank you.
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With Citizen COBs it's easy to calculate the number of diodes inside it. The type number gives you the number of parallel series in the COB. So a Citizen CLU048-1212 contains 12*12=144 diodes. A CLU058-1825 even 18*25 = 450. Or the CLU058-3618, yikes.

Citizen actually crams a lot more diodes in the same space than Cree (a 1212 is much smaller than a Cree CXB3590).
 
Prawn Connery

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
DET—PDX said:
A lot of good points being made, time is a commodity you will never get back. On individual points of light vs efficiency of coverage, however, they’re not synonymous. I believe coverage would also depend on the magnitudes and wavelengths of light being produced from the individual points of light, and I think it also depends on the quality of coverage you’re after. If for example you wanted to use quantum boards, you will indeed have many many points of light. But considering just one of those points, the magnitude of those wavelengths is in no way comparable to say, a Vero or CREE individual point, especially driven at 50+W. As with all LED’s, magnitude quickly decreases as you move outward on spectrum radius. This is literally the only reason boards are being used over CREE, Citizen or Vero, LED Diodes basically straight shoot light, and unless spectrum radius of Larger COBs overlap, the board will more evenly cover every time, BUT AT WHAT INTENSITY COST? This also has to be factored into ‘coverage’ because who wants to cover if light is too weak?
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Spectum (wavelength) aside, the more points of light, the lower intensity they need to be to effect the same photon output onto a given surface area. Light does spread, and also scatters as it reflects off surfaces, slowly being absorbed by those same surfaces through energy transfer that can be felt as heat. Scattering and transfer also happen in the atmosphere - which is why you can't see through fog, haze or smoke, for example.

In an ideal world, you want every photon emitted by a diode to reach a chloroplast before it gets absorbed somewhere else - but that's never going to happen. So instead we use common sense: what photon source in which particular layout offers the best compromise of start-up and running costs vs flowering yields (our ultimate aim)? But then people often fail to factor time into the equation. Building your own lights, for example, will save you money. But is that not time that could be spent earning more money doing something else? Likewise, training plants and adjusting lights. Are the results worth the extra yield that you could possibly sell (thus paying for the extra time spent working on your grow)? Do you get enjoyment out of the process? That's something we often feel is time well spent.

I dunno. Sometimes I think there is a point of diminishing returns. No doubt neglect can lead to catastrophic consequences in the form of disease and pests. Easy efficiencies - like hanging a HID vertically, or replacing a horizontal HID with an LED source, or growing organic hydro instead of soil - should also never be overlooked, because they still give you the best bang for buck.

But there comes a point where agonising over every last photon, every bit of power, and every little leaf will drive you crazy before you see a significant rise in yield! Just sayin'
 
Or_Gro

Or_Gro

Well-Known Member
tstick said:
Aaaahhh...I haven't been to this section in awhile...Good to see that some things never change....like the bickering! :(

Dan has been a great asset to many growers on this forum and if he wants to go all-COBs then more power to him. I can't decide on any particular lights anymore. I've grown under them all and they all work.

Plus, Kevin Jodery (probably the most knowledgeable grower on Earth) has made it clear that most of the genetics that people grow, now, come from plants that were acclimated to grow under HID lighting -specifically HPS. So there is no "miracle" light that's going to make any kind of massive difference -even to expert growers. You would have to run seed-generations under a new lighting system for awhile and then compare those results with seed generations that were run under HPS, to see anything....And, even then, you might not see all that big of a difference.

Cost-wise, same deal....The small-time, personal grower won't see any appreciable difference. And the super-huge mega-greenhouse operations are not going to be changing from HPS lighting for the aforementioned reasons, anyway. If THEY were to convert to a new format, then THEY might see a cost difference over a period of time because of the massive amount of electricity those operations consume....but it makes little difference for the common man.

Boards have their place, too. My Nextlight is razor-thin and saves a lot of headroom in a tent, for example. The plants like it, too. It's all good.

I have been a supporter of Timber Grow Lights before they were even Timber Grow Lights so I am well-aware of Dan and Co. and I can't say enough GREAT things about them! Just based on customer service, alone, Timber Grow Lights beats the competition by a country mile!
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I don’t know you but i wish i did. Excellent post!
 
Or_Gro

Or_Gro

Well-Known Member
DET—PDX said:
A lot of good points being made, time is a commodity you will never get back. On individual points of light vs efficiency of coverage, however, they’re not synonymous. I believe coverage would also depend on the magnitudes and wavelengths of light being produced from the individual points of light, and I think it also depends on the quality of coverage you’re after. If for example you wanted to use quantum boards, you will indeed have many many points of light. But considering just one of those points, the magnitude of those wavelengths is in no way comparable to say, a Vero or CREE individual point, especially driven at 50+W. As with all LED’s, magnitude quickly decreases as you move outward on spectrum radius. This is literally the only reason boards are being used over CREE, Citizen or Vero, LED Diodes basically straight shoot light, and unless spectrum radius of Larger COBs overlap, the board will more evenly cover every time, BUT AT WHAT INTENSITY COST? This also has to be factored into ‘coverage’ because who wants to cover if light is too weak?
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How much do you need? is 1000 ppfd enough, how about 1350 or 1500? Boards can do it intensely and evenly, if you have enuff and spread them appropriately AND have a real ppfd meter.

Peak dli in US’ premier outdoor growing region northern cal/southern or is about 50 dli, dropping to 40s during flowering. On a sunny summer day in phoenix az , dli is 65.

The best use of these boards is during flowering.

Plug 12 hours and 1050 or 1350 or 1500 (easily achievable with my boards, configured by dan at the best price performance in the industry), see what you get.

Then tell me qbs are crap or dan doesn't know what he’s doing.

https://horticulturelightinggroup.com/blogs/news/converting-ppfd-to-dli

Ref:
https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/ho/ho-238-w.pdf
 
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wietefras

wietefras

Well-Known Member
Or_Gro said:
Then tell me qbs are crap or dan doesn't know what he’s doing.
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That's not the point

This is:
RainDan said:
We feel that our COB based fixtures provide the grower with both the proper amount of PPFD as well as even and symmetrical placement of the photons across the entire intended coverage area. Our COB based lights are designed to address typical issues with indoor lighting such as corner/edge coverage, canopy heat output and evenness of PPFD spread at low (12-18” above canopy or less) operating heights.
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That a fixture with led strips or COBs can be better (or cheaper for the same) than those with boards doesn't mean that boards are crap.
 
Yodaweed

Yodaweed

Well-Known Member
Prawn Connery said:
Spectum (wavelength) aside, the more points of light, the lower intensity they need to be to effect the same photon output onto a given surface area. Light does spread, and also scatters as it reflects off surfaces, slowly being absorbed by those same surfaces through energy transfer that can be felt as heat. Scattering and transfer also happen in the atmosphere - which is why you can't see through fog, haze or smoke, for example.

In an ideal world, you want every photon emitted by a diode to reach a chloroplast before it gets absorbed somewhere else - but that's never going to happen. So instead we use common sense: what photon source in which particular layout offers the best compromise of start-up and running costs vs flowering yields (our ultimate aim)? But then people often fail to factor time into the equation. Building your own lights, for example, will save you money. But is that not time that could be spent earning more money doing something else? Likewise, training plants and adjusting lights. Are the results worth the extra yield that you could possibly sell (thus paying for the extra time spent working on your grow)? Do you get enjoyment out of the process? That's something we often feel is time well spent.

I dunno. Sometimes I think there is a point of diminishing returns. No doubt neglect can lead to catastrophic consequences in the form of disease and pests. Easy efficiencies - like hanging a HID vertically, or replacing a horizontal HID with an LED source, or growing organic hydro instead of soil - should also never be overlooked, because they still give you the best bang for buck.

But there comes a point where agonising over every last photon, every bit of power, and every little leaf will drive you crazy before you see a significant rise in yield! Just sayin'
Click to expand...
Organic hydro? I grow organic but use my own soil mix, what do you mean by organic hydro? Like a SIP or are you using bottled "organic" nutrients in a hydroponics system? I use SIPs but i wouldn't really consider that hydro.
 
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hillbill

hillbill

Well-Known Member
Business collaborations are formed and dissolved everyday. Two excellent companies with A+ reputations here providing top level products and service. Would be proud of any product from either. Other than that, their business shit is not any of my business and not having to worry about their said shit allows me more personal peacefulness.
 
Or_Gro

Or_Gro

Well-Known Member
wietefras said:
That's not the point

This is:


That a fixture with led strips or COBs can be better (or cheaper for the same) than those with boards doesn't mean that boards are crap.
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Tanks for thaat, oliver...so what?

I am willing to pay a premium for this kind of performance (but i didn’t even have to, due to the price performance of dan’s product), in a form factor like the 48sams. I daresay others would, too.

Some savvy light co is gonna take this concept to the next level by adding in emerson, initiator, and uv tubes/diodes, to satisfy growers like me who would rather put their limited time into optimizing their growing conditions, rather than obsessing on a friggin cob-only world.
 
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RainDan

RainDan

Well-Known Member
Dave455 said:
All calculated numbers at Timber. He takes no PPFD readings on any of the fixtures! No PAR maps of actual coverage. FYI
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Hello @Dave455,

Yours is not a true statement and I would appreciate it if you would not spread false information about Timber Grow Lights and it's products.

Our company builds lights that can be customized for color temp, mixing of color temp, mixing of CRI and use of optics. All of these variables will change the PPFD of a fixture drastically. It is not possible for us to test every permutation for PPFD output. We have tested the PPFD output of the most popular (3500K 80 RA) in an integrated sphere and those are the results shown on our website.

Additionally, we have shared these results (raw data) with the community - with the help of a long time and trusted forum member @PSUAGRO. - testing done by NextLight at their laboratory on their dime - so please do a little more research next time you try to speak on the behalf of a company(ies) you know nothing of the inner workings of.

Thank you,
Dan
 
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Prawn Connery

Prawn Connery

Well-Known Member
Yodaweed said:
Organic hydro? I grow organic but use my own soil mix, what do you mean by organic hydro? Like a SIP or are you using bottled "organic" nutrients in a hydroponics system? I use SIPs but i wouldn't really consider that hydro.
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Hydro using organic-based liquid nutrients (including humic, fulvic acids and micros), and/or teas, as opposed to straight mineral salts in sterile solution. If you're going to ask what type of hydro, then any type; aeroponics being a bit more challenging due to the susceptibility of misters being blocked by organic compounds. I've grown organic DWC, NFT and currently RTW coco, which provides a better buffer and a bit of insurance in summer in terms of root zone aeration (protection against anaerobic conditions).

SIP is not organic hydro and I'm not a big fan of it as bottom-up watering can lead to salt build-up when it carries minerals to the surface where the solution evaporates and there is no self-flushing action within the pot.
 
diyled

diyled

Well-Known Member
RainDan said:
Hello @Dave455,

Yours is not a true statement and I would appreciate it if you would not spread false information about Timber Grow Lights and it's products.

Our company builds lights that can be customized for color temp, mixing of color temp, mixing of CRI and use of optics. All of these variables will change the PPFD of a fixture drastically. It is not possible for us to test every permutation for PPFD output. We have tested the PPFD output of the most popular (3500K 80 RA) in an integrated sphere and those are the results shown on our website.

Additionally, we have shared these results (raw data) with the community - with the help of a long time and trusted forum member @PSUAGRO. - testing done by NextLight at their laboratory on their dime - so please do a little more research next time you try to speak on the behalf of a company(ies) you know nothing of the inner workings of.

Thank you,
Dan
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Where was the sphere data for the veros posted if you dont mind me asking?
 
Aolelon

Aolelon

Well-Known Member
Or_Gro said:
Tanks for thaat, oliver...so what?

I am willing to pay a premium for this kind of performance (but i didn’t even have to, due to the price performance of dan’s product), in a form factor like the 48sams. I daresay others would, too.

Some savvy light co is gonna take this concept to the next level by adding in emerson, initiator, and uv tubes/diodes, to satisfy growers like me who would rather put their limited time into optimizing their growing conditions, rather than obsessing on a friggin cob-only world.
Click to expand...
You know you can make the 48SAMs at home right? You buy 4 qb 288 v2 and heatsinks from HLG (the same exact ones Dan uses) Then go on amazon and buy a price of T - slot aluminum extrusion and some screws... and then you assemble it.
 
Or_Gro

Or_Gro

Well-Known Member
Aolelon said:
You know you can make the 48SAMs at home right? You buy 4 qb 288 v2 and heatsinks from HLG (the same exact ones Dan uses) Then go on amazon and buy a price of T - slot aluminum extrusion and some screws... and then you assemble it.
Click to expand...
You know what i think of you, right?
 
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