CFL: Calculations and Room Design

Al B. Fuct

once had a dog named
At the same temp and humidity we had horrible problems with stretchy plants using a HID. The only thing I can chalk it up to is the fluoro's.
SAME temp?!

right.

How do you reckon everyone else grows great plants with HID lights and you can only manage it with T5s?

I'd still put cash on the room temp having been out of control.

The CFL's are great for veg, or flower on a small scale.. say a closet grow.. which are most of the questions asked on here.
um, no, they suck for flowering, even one plant at a time... unless you just LIKE small, light, wispy buds... :roll:

I agree, CFL's can't match the intensity of the HPS. For a small space they, in my mind, would be prefered over the HID anyday. The yield wouldn't be as good as a HID, but if the HID fried them.. there would be NO yield.

See what I'm getting at?

HPS = great if space is available
CFL = great if space is confined
It's not the space available, it's the airflow you can provide. LOTS wardrobe/closet grows out there with 250HPS (this one is BRILLIANT), all it takes is sufficient airflow- but a cooltube makes it much easier to keep temps correct.

My first grows (while living in apartments!) many years ago were based on 250W HPS, first built in a walk-in closet, later in a free-standing wardrobe because it was easier to ventilate.

Maybe in the future the CFL's will become more powerful.. for now I'm just relying on math to dictate my decision.
CFLs will never be more 'powerful' in terms of light intensity than they are now. The CFLs you buy at the grocery are already an adequate replacement for incandescent household illumination and won't be developed further. They don't need to be any more intense for that job.

However, if you like, you CAN buy a 125W CFL from Spectrum. Said to be equivalent to a 1500W incandescent (for what that figure's worth). But guess what? Still low intensity light. Worse, it's effectively several separate tubes on one electronic ballast, some which actually shade light from the others at most radiation angles.

Life's too short to grow crappy bud.
 

storm22

Well-Known Member
Since I'm in <3 with Compact Fluorescent Lighting (CFL) I wanted to spend some time today to share with you what I've found during my hours of research.

Not only are these the best way to light (cost, efficiency, growth) vegetation for the least amount of money spent in intial costs and expenses of operating the lights they are flexible enough to be used in extremely small spaces. They produce very low amounts of heat allowing them to be placed directly next to the vegetation.

After all, 'compact' is in the name!

Since we are recreating the outside invironment inside we must work with at least 10,000 Lumens per square foot as the sun produces that much light, on average, on Earth during a sunny summer day.

Here is an equation every inside grower should have burnt into their brains:

The Inverse Square Law

E = I / r*r

E = Illuminance
I = Pointance
r = Distance

Illuminance is the amount of light emitted over an area, whether you are using Metric or Standard measurement, produced by the Pointance (source of light) at a specified Distance.

For example, 1 unit of distance from the Pointance to the perpendicular object would calculate as such:

E = I / 1*1

If we assume the Pointance is producing 10,000 Lumens (L):

E= 10,000L / 1*1

E = 10,000L per square unit area

If the Pointance is situated at 2 units of distance above the perpendicular object, assuming the pointance is producing 10,000L:

E = 10,000L / 2*2

E = 2,500L per square unit of area

That is one fourth (1/4) of the light per 1 square unit of area. This means, if the pointance is twice the distance it will require four times the light to cover the area with 10,000L.

E = 40,000L / 2*2

E = 10,000L per square unit area.

Given this knowledge of how light spreads over an area, not diminishes, the CFL's have an obvious advantage over high-intensity discharge (HID) lamps. HID lamps produce so much heat that they require distance from the canopy of vegetation to prevent burning and potential destruction of the vegetation.

For example, a high-pressure sodium (HPS) lamp producing 95,000L per 600 watts (w) of energy consumed (158.3L/w) situated 4 units of distance above the canopy would look like this:

E = 95,000L / 4*4

E = 5,937.5L per square unit area

Same equation with a 1000w HPS producing 140,000L (140L/w):

E = 140,000L / 4*4

E = 8,750L per square unit area

Notice how the 600w HPS is more efficient in terms of L/w than the 1000w a the same distance. The 600w HPS is producing 158.3L/w and the 1000w HPS produces 140L/w.

With proper ventilation, or even water-cooling, the HPS can be set closer to the canopy (within 2 ft.). This is of course costs quite a bit of money while the CFL's can be set right next to the canopy with no extra equipment and a very low initial cost.

One 600w lamp can be had for $100.00, then there is the hood/reflector, socket/cord, ballast, and ventilation/water-cooling. This could easily add up to $1,000. The 1000w counter-part is around the same price.

Now, lets compare some CFL's to each other and then back to the HPS lamps. Keep in mind that CFL's are *self-ballasted* (the ballast regulates the electricity to maintain a steady current).

These do not require anything special, household socket and wiring will work:

13w; 700L = 53.8L/w
15w; 900L = 60L/w
26w; 1,700L = 65.3L/w
30w; 2,000 = 66.7L/w
32w; 2,100L = 65.6L/w
40w; 2,800L = 70L/w
55w; 3,600L = 65.5L/w

These require special sockets, but standard household cords:

125w; 8,000L = 64L/w
150w; 10,000L = 66.7L/w
200w; 12,000L = 60L/w
250w; 15,000L = 60L/w

One more factor to consider is the HID's wear out quickly. Through half of their life the light emitted could drop as much as 50% and they will still look bright as hell. The CFL's generally just go out. I've sure the quality degrades a bit, but since they aren't as hot as the HID's they will maintain light out-put better longer.

All of the CFL's listed can be had for under $100 and only the big ones need the special socket and standard household cord. With heat still being emitted from these CFL's you'll only need a simple fan (you should already have these for circulation) to cool the growing space.

Since the CFL's can be placed right on the canopy you can pretty much throw out the Inverse Sqaure Law. Not only that, but they come in the blue and red lighting spectrum for all stages of growth.. for the SAME price.

Now that we've compared the CFL's to themselves lets find the most efficient CFL's (L/w) and compare them to the HPS lamps.

CFL:
40w; 2,800L = 70L/w
150w; 10,000L = 66.7L/w

HPS:
600w; 95,000L = 158.3L/w
1000w; 140,000 = 140L/w

In order for a CFL to match the initial lumen output of the HPS it would take:

34 - 40w CFL's
9.5 - 150w CFL's

Now, let's apply that nifty little equation from the beggining of this thread:

The Inverse Square Law

E = I / r*r


E = 95,000 / 4*4

E = 5,937.5L per square unit area

E = 140,000 / 4*4

E = 8,750L per square unit area


Since the CFL's produce very little heat compared the HPS lamps they will be placed right next to the canopy practically negating the Inverse Square Law in this setup.

Now, let's see how many lumens can be spread over a 4x4 area with CFL's:

34 - 40w CFL's = 95,200L
10 - 150w CFL's = 100,000L

Now, let's divide that total Lumen output by 16 (4x4) to see what we get over a 1x1 area:

34 - 40w CFL's = 5,950L per square unit area
10 - 150w CFL's = 6,250L per square unit area

Keep in mind we are trying to get at least 10,000L per square unit area, that would still take two 600w HPS.

Since the CFL's are compact they can be used in much smaller, more efficient designs.

Let's say we can fit this into a 2x2:

34 - 40w CFL's = 95,200L
10 - 150w CFL's = 100,000L

34 - 40w CFL's = 23,800L per square unit area
10 - 150w CFL's = 25,000L per square unit area

Given different designs, light placement, soil or hydro, ScroG, SoG, supplimental lighting, nutrition, and grower experience will ALL affect the end yield.

As you can see from the math the CFL's have a very good chance of being equivalent to the HPS.. and even surpassing them with Lumens given an area.

Another huge factor is the Color Rendering Index (CRI). Most HPS lights only provide up to 80% CRI. While CFL's claim 100% CRI. CRI is how well the lamp can recreate natural sun light.

Remember, anyone can get these CFL's at almost any store these days. They use normal sockets, except for the big ones, and normal household plugs. The price is noticably cheaper and easier to maintain.

Just something to think about with your current setup or a noOb starting out in their closet.

:blsmoke:

Enigma
i cant possibly understand this unless im sober, then again i just suck at math, so i still wouldn't understand:weed:
 

Enigma

Well-Known Member
i cant possibly understand this unless im sober, then again i just suck at math, so i still wouldn't understand:weed:
More light = better

HPS more effective than CFL, but CFL are possible for flowering. CFL great for cost efficient veg.
 

Godkas

Well-Known Member
regardless of wether you have 150000 lumens of HID lighting or 150000 lumens of CFL lighting in the proper spectrum for the stage of growth results will be the same.

light is light is light in the same luminosity/spectrum.
 

Enigma

Well-Known Member
regardless of wether you have 150000 lumens of HID lighting or 150000 lumens of CFL lighting in the proper spectrum for the stage of growth results will be the same.

light is light is light in the same luminosity/spectrum.
Not really. HID's have better light penetration than CFL's. CFL's have a better CRI rating than HID's. Lumens is only what our eyes see.. plants 'see' different parts of the lighting spectrum than we do.

All lights are not created equal.
 

daddychrisg

Well-Known Member
light is light is light in the same luminosity/spectrum.

You are missing the point....HID lighting puts out more light intensity, thus penetrates the canopy and creates thicker stems and denser buds...You would have to keep your cfls practically touching your plant to even begin to match the intensity that HID can deliver.
 

Godkas

Well-Known Member
HID DOES NOT PENETRATE MORE! god damn someone please TRY to understand how lights work for a second.

There are 2 factors to the use of a light to grow plants.

1. Luminosity (AKA - Intensity): THIS is where you get your light penetration. HID lighting isnt some magical device that projects light farther or through more than the bulbs intensity allows for.

2. Spectrum (AKA Kelvin) (Color Temperature): this is where you get your lighting spectrum 5500k-6500k in veg and 2700k in flower

Having stated this there is no POSSIBLE difference between a 150,000 lumen hid and a 150,000 lumen CFL. PERIOD.

We stopped believing in magic back in the dark ages. lets keep it that way people.
 

daddychrisg

Well-Known Member
How many lumens does a 200w cfl produce @ 1" away from the bulb? Now 12"?

How many lumens does a 400w MH or HPS produce @ 1", now 12"?

You will see that CFL's just don't have the "intensity" that HID lights do...So you will have to have your CFL's almost touching your plant for them to receive enough lumens to match what a HID can do from 5x the distance....So if you are into that kind of thing.....I on the other hand have many other things to be doing with my life besides re-positioning a dozen lights every other day...
 

Godkas

Well-Known Member
Now thats just a closed minded point of view

if you build light boxes for your CFL's you can raise groups of them at a time (youll need to do this anyway to make reflective hoods for your cfl lights)

Also your comparison is insulting at best. of course a 400w HPS produces more lumens than a 200w CFL its got 200 watts more to work with.

Did you just -ignore- my 150,000 lumen comment. lumens = intensity so if they match the results will be the same. there is NO difference

and no magic
 

Enigma

Well-Known Member
How many lumens does a 200w cfl produce @ 1" away from the bulb? Now 12"?

How many lumens does a 400w MH or HPS produce @ 1", now 12"?

You will see that CFL's just don't have the "intensity" that HID lights do...So you will have to have your CFL's almost touching your plant for them to receive enough lumens to match what a HID can do from 5x the distance....So if you are into that kind of thing.....I on the other hand have many other things to be doing with my life besides re-positioning a dozen lights every other day...

Honestly people.. this thread was created to help people not create some fantasy e-thug environment for your spores to germinate.

If you spent time to read this thread you will see that in no way have the HID's been bashed.. it sounds like your taking this a little too personal, bra.

With enough CFL's you can match lumens that a HID can produce. Fact.

Having cheap, efficient, and compact designs a lot of people on this board would benefit from a "stealth" op. HID's need a space of at least 12" to prevent burning.

CFL's have their advantages, HID's have their advantages.. Al b and I already went through this without your $0.02.

On a more personal note, my flourescents don't get repositioned everyday. Most other builds I've seen on here don't move them either. I actually see more people moving their HID's until they can figure out where it is supposed to be. On personal setups I've always used flourescents for veg and HID's for flowering. Now, flour's could be used for flowering but using enough of them to match the simplicity of a HID is astounding. Mad props to anyone who can achieve a decent yeild with CFL's.. I just don't have the patience to wire up 20+ lights for what I want.

One HID can equal like 40 CFL's... do the math.
 

Godkas

Well-Known Member
i think the best way is to make multiple fixture hoods and project the light much the same way as a HPS hood would. this bounces lumens back down into a confined footprint

you can even put a cfl hood on a track.. theres no reason why not
 

daddychrisg

Well-Known Member
Also your comparison is insulting at best. of course a 400w HPS produces more lumens than a 200w CFL its got 200 watts more to work with.

Just double the cfl's out put...

With enough CFL's you can match lumens that a HID can produce. Fact.

@ What distance away from the bulb?

it sounds like your taking this a little too personal

LOL, not really....but when post like this" One HID can equal like 40 CFL's... do the math." And it gives someone the great idea to run down to Wal Mart, and buy the items needed to burn down there house.....I am alittle set off..Usually the person that is going to do this has no common sense to begin with, and that is why they can't afford the correct system for there lighting needs in the first place. So please don't go off saying that it is a good idea to run 40 cfl's in a series...because it is NOT! careful what you say around here...People are on medication...:peace:
 

Enigma

Well-Known Member
Also your comparison is insulting at best. of course a 400w HPS produces more lumens than a 200w CFL its got 200 watts more to work with.

Just double the cfl's out put...

With enough CFL's you can match lumens that a HID can produce. Fact.

@ What distance away from the bulb?

it sounds like your taking this a little too personal

LOL, not really....but when post like this" One HID can equal like 40 CFL's... do the math." And it gives someone the great idea to run down to Wal Mart, and buy the items needed to burn down there house.....I am alittle set off..Usually the person that is going to do this has no common sense to begin with, and that is why they can't afford the correct system for there lighting needs in the first place. So please don't go off saying that it is a good idea to run 40 cfl's in a series...because it is NOT! careful what you say around here...People are on medication...:peace:

Seriously, if you're out to bash me do it in a PM so you're not wasting space on here with this meaningless banter.

All of the math is there.. if you can't figure it out then just get a HID.
 

Godkas

Well-Known Member
LEDs have proven useful in both veg and flower. though some technical knowledge is needed to make a proper array.
 
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