Caregvier to Caregiver

GregS

GregS

Well-Known Member
woodsmantoker said:
Explain to me what you need in order to test your theory, if you will.
Click to expand...
Cases are the only way. Although the SC has clearly ruled in the matter, I will be watching out for sec. 8 cases and the results. I am aware of a few that have concluded in favor of the defendant, though I don't have the full details. It would be a great idea to search for them.
 
GregS

GregS

Well-Known Member
If I am found to be in contravention of sec. 4, it is assured that I will. Interestingly, I have found seven cases where the defendant prevailed in court in a sec. 8 defense. Yes. I am a caregiver and a patient.
 
Dr. Bob

Dr. Bob

Well-Known Member
Apparently they had section 8 dismissals, but no word on what the section 8 was based on. By mentioning there are successful cases of section 8 dismissals, Greg is apparently trying to imply that his ideas are validated.

Put the case numbers up Greg and we'll review them together. I am willing to be they are related ONLY to patients, and they were minor violations, like having 14 plants or an unsecured grow. I am willing to bet NONE were 'unregistered caregivers'.

Dr. Bob
 
GregS

GregS

Well-Known Member
Dr. Bob said:
Apparently they had section 8 dismissals, but no word on what the section 8 was based on. By mentioning there are successful cases of section 8 dismissals, Greg is apparently trying to imply that his ideas are validated.

Put the case numbers up Greg and we'll review them together. I am willing to be they are related ONLY to patients, and they were minor violations, like having 14 plants or an unsecured grow. I am willing to bet NONE were 'unregistered caregivers'.

Dr. Bob
Click to expand...

What is your major malfunction numbnut?? It is obviously some kind of character disorder.

You really should see a mental health professional.
 
Dr. Bob

Dr. Bob

Well-Known Member
GregS said:
What is your major malfunction numbnut?? It is obviously some kind of character disorder.

You really should see a mental health professional.
Click to expand...
Exactly, you are given a very specific question, what are the cases and what where they about, and your only response is to call me a numbnut and mentally ill. Great way to divert attention to the issue at hand...not.

And by the way district and circuit court cases are NOT case law, they are only applied to individual cases. There is no telling that because one judge in a circuit rules one way on a particular case, that other judges in the same circuit (or even the same judge) will rule the same way in a similar case later. They cannot be taken to another jurisdiction and force a ruling. In the COA and SC those cases do rule over lower courts and throughout the state as case law.

At BEST, if you show up with a district or circuit court ruling you might give the judge something to think about as he/she decides your case in their court. But it is up to the judge.

Dr. Bob
 
GregS

GregS

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the clarification regarding case law. The several Supreme Court decisions that have upheld the authority of the AD, however, are very much case law.
 
cephalopod

cephalopod

Well-Known Member
[h=1]http://fox17online.com/2013/07/23/medical-marijuana-debate-heats-up-again-in-west-michigan/#axzz2ZvMUjAgo
Medical Marijuana Debate Heats Up Again in West Michigan[/h]GRAND RAPIDS, Mich.- The medical marijuana debate is heating up again in West Michigan with prosecutors, judges and police still trying to define the ramifications of the Medical Marijuana Act passed by voters in 2008.
This week, one of the men leading the fight, the founder of the Mid-Michigan Compassion Club in Grand Rapids, was back in court. That’s when a Kent County Judge ruled what police would call a dispensary and what the founder calls a club could remain open. It was also ruled founder David Overholt couldn’t go within 100 feet of it.
Overholt’s upcoming trial on marijuana charges could set a new legal precedent when it comes to medical marijuana in Michigan.
Assistant Muskegon County Prosecutor Brett Gardner for clarifications on the law and the Supreme Court’s rulings.
Assistant Muskegon County Prosecutor Brett Gardner explained that the current precedent of State vs. McQueen ruled that patient-to-patient transfers or caregiver-to-patient transfers were in violation of the Medical Marijuana Act.
“Caregivers under the law have five patients that they can supply marijuana to, if they go beyond that five and supply it to anyone who is not their registered patients, then they open themselves up for not only civil action for a public nuisance but potential criminal charges,” Gardner said.
Overholt argues the ruling was only patient-to-patient specific.
“If a caregiver and a caregiver are working together they`re both legal Michigan caregivers licensed by the state then the law already tells you that you are immune to prosecution,” Overholt says.
He’s challenging his charges and is fully ready to go to trial, because if not he says the world of medical marijuana cannot survived.
“Without the ability to exchange with other caregivers and to keep enough meds, usable meds and quality meds in front of their patients, I think the system is doomed to fail,” he said.
One thing both men agree on is that the medical marijuana act is hazy, leaving room for questions and legal interpretation.




 
GregS

GregS

Well-Known Member
cephalopod said:
http://fox17online.com/2013/07/23/medical-marijuana-debate-heats-up-again-in-west-michigan/#axzz2ZvMUjAgo
Medical Marijuana Debate Heats Up Again in West Michigan

GRAND RAPIDS, Mich.- The medical marijuana debate is heating up again in West Michigan with prosecutors, judges and police still trying to define the ramifications of the Medical Marijuana Act passed by voters in 2008.
This week, one of the men leading the fight, the founder of the Mid-Michigan Compassion Club in Grand Rapids, was back in court. That’s when a Kent County Judge ruled what police would call a dispensary and what the founder calls a club could remain open. It was also ruled founder David Overholt couldn’t go within 100 feet of it.
Overholt’s upcoming trial on marijuana charges could set a new legal precedent when it comes to medical marijuana in Michigan.
Assistant Muskegon County Prosecutor Brett Gardner for clarifications on the law and the Supreme Court’s rulings.
Assistant Muskegon County Prosecutor Brett Gardner explained that the current precedent of State vs. McQueen ruled that patient-to-patient transfers or caregiver-to-patient transfers were in violation of the Medical Marijuana Act.
“Caregivers under the law have five patients that they can supply marijuana to, if they go beyond that five and supply it to anyone who is not their registered patients, then they open themselves up for not only civil action for a public nuisance but potential criminal charges,” Gardner said.
Overholt argues the ruling was only patient-to-patient specific.
“If a caregiver and a caregiver are working together they`re both legal Michigan caregivers licensed by the state then the law already tells you that you are immune to prosecution,” Overholt says.
He’s challenging his charges and is fully ready to go to trial, because if not he says the world of medical marijuana cannot survived.
“Without the ability to exchange with other caregivers and to keep enough meds, usable meds and quality meds in front of their patients, I think the system is doomed to fail,” he said.
One thing both men agree on is that the medical marijuana act is hazy, leaving room for questions and legal interpretation.
Click to expand...
If only there had been a preponderance of evidence that these caregivers and patients were able to prove the three prongs.

(sigh)
 
GregS

GregS

Well-Known Member
Let's do a thought experiment. Shall we?

Had there been notarized agreements between the patients in attendance and the people who were presumably selling to them that proves two of the three elements of the AD (that a physician has stated..., and that the patient and the patient's caregiver were engaged to treat and alleviate the patient's condition) by a preponderance of the evidence, and an amount not more than, say, 1 to 2 oz were mutually possessed, where would this case go? Would it have been started in the first place? What would the likely outcome(s) have been?
​
 
GregS

GregS

Well-Known Member
This is how it works:

I will meet you at a bank to sign and notarize the required documents.

If one of us is a customer at that bank, notary services are free.

If you are a patient, we can assign each other as the other's caregiver.

If it is your bank I can sell you a bunch.

And we will laugh.
 
buckaroo bonzai

buckaroo bonzai

Well-Known Member
GregS said:
This is how it works:

I will meet you at a bank to sign and notarize the required documents.

If one of us is a customer at that bank, notary services are free.

If you are a patient, we can assign each other as the other's caregiver.

If it is your bank I can sell you a bunch.

And we will laugh.
Click to expand...

i admire your tenacity 800lb go-rilla man!

i would patronize your store\collective\co-op just for affect....and sign the papers
--onus would be on you or whoever got caught first

hell sec8is all thats left if you are caught holding 'A' bag--

like i have said repeatedly.....
--same thing we had 'before' the law
...only now the lawyers have come up with a really great plan to line their pockets called sec8--

what are you working with??

--im always interested in 'real' good OG(pure) or some nice >>real trainwreck --(i would even pay$$for some)
---i have sniffed 100s of jars around here in the last 2yrs of what people 'claim' to be trainwreck ....but none of its real-

--in fact most of the jars i sniff arent even close to what people claim they are-
and have you been to any of the new FM cropping up all over???

--crap at high prices lolol

as far as cg>cg.......2consenting adults behind closed doors can get away with alot-

why would we want to sign papers and file w the state??? --or not
--might be nice to have them handy in case you 'need' to mount a ""defense"" ....which can cost how much??$$$$$

read craigslist lately?? the prostitutes are selling p____y like its going out of style--illegal?????

--im guessing your going to see a substantial drop in pt numbers here by next yr--

the black market is booming here right now--demand outweighs supply by 2>1
evryone wants to smoke erb ....AGAIN-

-im also scouring the papers for all the sec8outdoor cases i expect
....but i dont see any yet as it aint harvest time

the lawyer that got the farmer off w/probation for 8000!! plants would be the guy to see

komron ...able...gro...targowski....rocklind--
--will just line their pockets while they get you a plea deal with their friends in the PA office
....and leave you out to hang for the buzzards
some of them have 'hundreds' of cases going right now$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

you really should stay over here and off that 'other' site as i see how they have been treating you there lately...

they wont even admit your argument--they are still 'towing the line' with their pt rhetoric ....now law-
(while they have administrator\plant mgrs working for dispensaries w ""full sets of cards"") hahahahaha

that is how those oily lawyer fuks affiliated with that secret stakeholders group are helping all their friends with marijuana ranches Fms and dispensaries

....if they acknowledged your argument they would expose themselves for the 2sided back stabbing greedy fuks they really are....
and have egg all over them as we would see how they really fucked us while lining their pockets and practicing their 'religion'($$$)

it pays tho to know who you are dealing with....literally

and never say the word 'sell' and 'marijuana' in the same sentence in mixed company
....ol hippie proverb that is my mantra

how are all these 'collectives' still operating in and around a2...?
--or all the ones in the D--?

looks like some of the dispensary owners ....marijuana ranch owners and FM players have picked MK as their legal choice
.....does he and his ilk at the other site help them all the while regning in pts for their 'box' they are designing for us all???
....of which they have like '3sides' built--

only thing the card is gonna be good for now is to buy it legally at exorbitant rates from the dispensaries that WILL come online soon if they have their way--and they will
--or you can grow for 5pts and get them to 'pay' you for your services--while some of them are dying!
--pfffft!
what a farce the law here is-

i always vette people at least a yr before i step outside my comfort zone....unless they are sanctioned by someone higher up on my trust list

i would say the law here mandates that you trust no one except in your well established sphere
.....and then be very careful as the mmj crowd here in mich is very 'jancky'....to say the least


:peace: tenacious 800lb go-rilla man

the court room for this case should be PACKEd with spectators ....i mean packed!!


how bout that thread where you said you spoke to the rep in lansing and he told u sfc was gonna keep the pts under control??
--you meant his stakeholders 'group' didnt ya??? --the C--entral P--rocessing U--nit

fukrs (deep cover federal helpers)


there lots and lots of folks operating now 'outside' the law.......its critical mass-
just dont get caught up in some Bs-

hell most cg i have met 'think' they are ""legal"" and act as if that were so-
they are still vending to disp/collectives/coops/fms........wonder why??

shit if hundreds and thousands are doing it ....it must be easy and not too dangerous-
some even have neat little stealthy signs outside their 'stores'....that say stuff like "patient wellness network"....or "healthcare"...or patient ""resource center "" lolol


--pffffft!! michigan medical marijuana law!! --yeah right


go ahead and 'test' this theory.....youll need lots of $$$$$$$$$ to test it ....or a 3ma/cpu lawyer on retainer-:lol:
 
gladstoned

gladstoned

Well-Known Member
GregS said:
This is how it works:

I will meet you at a bank to sign and notarize the required documents.

If one of us is a customer at that bank, notary services are free.

If you are a patient, we can assign each other as the other's caregiver.

If it is your bank I can sell you a bunch.

And we will laugh.
Click to expand...

  • You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to GregS again.




 
GregS

GregS

Well-Known Member
buckaroo bonzai said:



i admire your tenacity 800lb go-rilla man!

i would patronize your store\collective\co-op just for affect....and sign the papers
--onus would be on you or whoever got caught first

hell sec8is all thats left if you are caught holding 'A' bag--

like i have said repeatedly.....
--same thing we had 'before' the law
...only now the lawyers have come up with a really great plan to line their pockets called sec8--

what are you working with??

--im always interested in 'real' good OG(pure) or some nice >>real trainwreck --(i would even pay$$for some)
---i have sniffed 100s of jars around here in the last 2yrs of what people 'claim' to be trainwreck ....but none of its real-

--in fact most of the jars i sniff arent even close to what people claim they are-
and have you been to any of the new FM cropping up all over???

--crap at high prices lolol

as far as cg>cg.......2consenting adults behind closed doors can get away with alot-

why would we want to sign papers and file w the state??? --or not
--might be nice to have them handy in case you 'need' to mount a ""defense"" ....which can cost how much??$$$$$

read craigslist lately?? the prostitutes are selling p____y like its going out of style--illegal?????

--im guessing your going to see a substantial drop in pt numbers here by next yr--

the black market is booming here right now--demand outweighs supply by 2>1
evryone wants to smoke erb ....AGAIN-

-im also scouring the papers for all the sec8outdoor cases i expect
....but i dont see any yet as it aint harvest time

the lawyer that got the farmer off w/probation for 8000!! plants would be the guy to see

komron ...able...gro...targowski....rocklind--
--will just line their pockets while they get you a plea deal with their friends in the PA office
....and leave you out to hang for the buzzards
some of them have 'hundreds' of cases going right now$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

you really should stay over here and off that 'other' site as i see how they have been treating you there lately...

they wont even admit your argument--they are still 'towing the line' with their pt rhetoric ....now law-
(while they have administrator\plant mgrs working for dispensaries w ""full sets of cards"") hahahahaha

that is how those oily lawyer fuks affiliated with that secret stakeholders group are helping all their friends with marijuana ranches Fms and dispensaries

....if they acknowledged your argument they would expose themselves for the 2sided back stabbing greedy fuks they really are....
and have egg all over them as we would see how they really fucked us while lining their pockets and practicing their 'religion'($$$)

it pays tho to know who you are dealing with....literally

and never say the word 'sell' and 'marijuana' in the same sentence in mixed company
....ol hippie proverb that is my mantra

how are all these 'collectives' still operating in and around a2...?
--or all the ones in the D--?

looks like some of the dispensary owners ....marijuana ranch owners and FM players have picked MK as their legal choice
.....does he and his ilk at the other site help them all the while regning in pts for their 'box' they are designing for us all???
....of which they have like '3sides' built--

only thing the card is gonna be good for now is to buy it legally at exorbitant rates from the dispensaries that WILL come online soon if they have their way--and they will
--or you can grow for 5pts and get them to 'pay' you for your services--while some of them are dying!
--pfffft!
what a farce the law here is-

i always vette people at least a yr before i step outside my comfort zone....unless they are sanctioned by someone higher up on my trust list

i would say the law here mandates that you trust no one except in your well established sphere
.....and then be very careful as the mmj crowd here in mich is very 'jancky'....to say the least


:peace: tenacious 800lb go-rilla man

the court room for this case should be PACKEd with spectators ....i mean packed!!


how bout that thread where you said you spoke to the rep in lansing and he told u sfc was gonna keep the pts under control??
--you meant his stakeholders 'group' didnt ya??? --the C--entral P--rocessing U--nit

fukrs (deep cover federal helpers)


there lots and lots of folks operating now 'outside' the law.......its critical mass-
just dont get caught up in some Bs-

hell most cg i have met 'think' they are ""legal"" and act as if that were so-
they are still vending to disp/collectives/coops/fms........wonder why??

shit if hundreds and thousands are doing it ....it must be easy and not too dangerous-
some even have neat little stealthy signs outside their 'stores'....that say stuff like "patient wellness network"....or "healthcare"...or patient ""resource center "" lolol


--pffffft!! michigan medical marijuana law!! --yeah right


go ahead and 'test' this theory.....youll need lots of $$$$$$$$$ to test it ....or a 3ma/cpu lawyer on retainer-:lol:
Click to expand...
Damn. I wanna party with you, cowboy.

Lots to consider. Thanks for your vote of confidence. Has it really been a year?

This has the potential to take things out of the lawyer's hands. Using the methods described, a pt or cg, registered or unregistered, can use a PD, keeping the bitch on a short leash on her knees. The elements can be readily explained, cases and documents given her, and you can instruct her in your defense. She will have to hold her mouth just right.

I'm working with Lemon Haze, NYC Diesel, OG 18 Kush, Moby Dick, Pineapple Express, Pleasant Surprise, and am down to the nubs with Blowfish. I have help to manage the grow, and may have to give it up or replace him soon.

I've been to GC3. Nice operation.

I'm just about to throw a handful of dirt on B*B over there. If we get honest responses I expect, I can put a fork in him. That won't work here. I have taken his home field advantage, will eat his lunch, drink his beer, fuck his wimmen, and take a nap.

I'm guessing a circuit court case that incudes the necessary evidentiary hearing where the court must hear your sec. 8 motion to dismiss will come in around 3k, but I am looking for closer estimates. Don't forget the PD thoough.

Dunno about the collectives, but Bylsma may be a problem for them, unless they keep each others' grows separate and individually locked. They do have the AD to fall back on, but I think that is pretty risky. And then you have to expect the feds. I recommend keeping not more than twelve plants per patient and 72 plants total in one location.

I don't recall that SFC's contact in the house, Ken Horn, who has since left, said precisely that. He was a House Republican, and I do not recall working with CPU on those issues. SFC was and I think still is a CPU member.

I am unable to do the work to operate a market. I am fucked up real bad, have not been able to walk since Saturday, and am icing my bones now. This has been going on since 1996. It would be great fun to run one from a wheelchair though, and I think there will be one in my future. I hope the market model is taken up around the state. Otherwise individuals can work together to connect by contract, rather than registry. I do recommend that any qualified person maintain some compliance with sec. 4 and keep a few cards around.

Yeah. I am glad to be here. I might stay over there until they give me the boot though.

Did I miss anything?
 
GregS

GregS

Well-Known Member
I am getting closer to implementing my ideas to offer clear and convincing evidence that an unregistered caregiver is engaged with a patient for the purpose of leveraging the protections found in sec. 8.

There are a number of ways it can go. My thoughts are to offer the defense premium to any person who qualifies as a patient or caregiver, registered or unregistered, who enters into the proposed contract. Registered people who choose to use medibles and extracts will find that sec. 8 is their only option. Registered and unregistered patients can engage with any number of caregivers. Caregivers can engage with any number of patients. Possession limits are not as strict as found under sec. 4. Maximum access is the objective.

Does the need to be discreet in all of our dealings need to be said?

In kicking around the defense/activism fund, it is considered that we will be able to offer a defense up to and including circuit court. After all, as long as the parties have their ducks in a row and can prove the three prongs, the case is required to be dismissed at a circuit court pretrial conference after circuit court arraignment and before trial, where your motion(s) to dismiss are required to be heard. If there are any reasonable questions of material fact that arise, a circuit court jury trial is required. Beyond circuit court, and in the event of appeals and depending on the facts in the case, we might be able to offer to continue support depending on the strength of the fund. An appeal to the Supreme Court can run in excess of $50k. Otherwise old school fund raising is a reasonable means.

I've pulled the number three hundred and fifty dollars out of my ass as a reasonable cost for the premium. I think we can offer a fifty dollar commission out of that to anyone who sells the plan to any patient or caregiver. A beneficiary who has paid would be eligible for one defense per premium paid.

A small number of officers are required to set up a business entity and, in this case to act as fund managers, as a non-profit or any other corporation, LLC, partnership, &c... It remains to be seen what business structure would be best under the circumstances, and I expect to find that a non-profit is best. Reliable people will be needed for this, as they will collect monies and distribute defense benefits and money for activist causes. I am seeking candidates for those positions. Intrinsic checks will be worked into the mix to ensure accountability.

Townsend has been neutralized. He has been pointedly told that unregistered caregiving is an option under the law and that those people are entitled to a sec. 8 defense. Any more of his bullshit ranting should be simply ignored. He can be expected to continue.

Legal and court procedural matters are looming large at this point. I like to think that I am pretty much up to speed with them as a patient and caregiver with immense interest and determination to make this work. My efforts have been to bring sec. 8 defenses to the point of becoming boilerplate in dismissing cases, eliminating much of the cost and aggravation.

I think we are on our way.
 
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