Capitalism is killing America’s morals, our future

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Interesting article

TL;DR:
“Why worry that we are moving toward a society in which everything is up for sale?” Two huge reasons, says Sandel:

Corruption: “Putting a price on the good things in life can corrupt them ... markets don’t only allocate goods, they express and promote certain attitudes toward the goods being exchanged.” Also “corrupt the meaning of citizenship. Economists often assume that markets ... do not affect the goods being exchanged. But this is untrue. Markets leave their mark.”

Inequality: “Where everything is for sale, life is harder for those of modest means.” If wealth just bought things, yachts, sports cars, and fancy vacations, inequalities wouldn’t matter much. “But as money comes to buy more and more, the distribution of income and wealth looms larger.”


Some other highlights from the article:

"Sandel’s core message is simple: “The good things in life are degraded if turned into commodities. So to decide where the market belongs, and where it should be kept at a distance, we have to decide how to value the goods in question — health, education, family life, nature, art, civic duties, and so on. These are moral and political questions, not merely economic ones.”"

"And “the difference is this: A market economy is a tool ... for organizing productive activity. A market society is a way of life in which market values seep into every aspect of human endeavor. It’s a place where social relations are made over in the image of the market.” The difference is profound."

"This much is guaranteed: Capitalism is eliminating moral values. As Sandel puts it: “Each party to a deal decides for him- or herself what value to place on the things being exchanged. This nonjudgmental stance toward values lies at the heart of market reasoning, and explains much of its appeal.” But unfortunately, market capitalism has also “exacted a heavy price ... drained public discourse of moral and civic energy.”"

"Meanwhile, we have no choice but to wait patiently till the collapse, anxiously aware that our bizarre political system will just keep degrading America’s moral values, pricing, buying, selling, trading morals like commodities, because in the final analysis, everything has a price and everyone has a price in our hot new exciting Market Society."


He also has a reeeeeally interesting series of lectures called "What's the right thing to do?" that were recorded at Harvard discussing all of this in much more detail if you're interested. Here's one of my favorites;

 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
There are some religious nutjobs who say gay marriage is ruining the morals of this country. Usually they take this stance while screwing around on their spouses.

This dude has a booking agent to help extract as much money as possible for appearance fees to talk about the immorality of capitalism and the anti-capitalism religious nutjobs eat this shit up.

Religion is for the weak minded.

I have a very clean 2008 dodge ram for sale, I guess I should just put it in a pile with everything else so people who need it can take it and bring it back when done.

I listed it at blue book value, should I try to get more? sell it for wholesale? give it to someone who needs it more than me? Am I immoral for buying it in the first place or just for trying to sell it?
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
There are some religious nutjobs who say gay marriage is ruining the morals of this country. Usually they take this stance while screwing around on their spouses.

This dude has a booking agent to help extract as much money as possible for appearance fees to talk about the immorality of capitalism and the anti-capitalism religious nutjobs eat this shit up.

Religion is for the weak minded.

I have a very clean 2008 dodge ram for sale, I guess I should just put it in a pile with everything else so people who need it can take it and bring it back when done.

I listed it at blue book value, should I try to get more? sell it for wholesale? give it to someone who needs it more than me? Am I immoral for buying it in the first place or just for trying to sell it?
"BUT HE MAKES MONEY TOO! HE'S A HYPOCRITE!!!!"

Please return when you have a better argument than that..
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
"BUT HE MAKES MONEY TOO! HE'S A HYPOCRITE!!!!"

Please return when you have a better argument than that..
He makes as much money as possible in a capitalistic system while preaching to his comrades about the evils of exactly what he's doing.

Why is he telling to me to act in the opposite way he himself is acting? Why do you believe this guy knowing this?
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
He makes as much money as possible in a capitalistic system while preaching to his comrades about the evils of exactly what he's doing.

Why is he telling to me to act in the opposite way he himself is acting? Why do you believe this guy knowing this?
Quote where he's telling anyone to act in any way?
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
Quote where he's telling anyone to act in any way?
oh geez...

Ya see, when you make judgements on other people's moralities or the morality of the collective, then make presentations to back up your claim, it's not just for the halibut.

You know who else makes assumptions based on collective moralities? Religious nutjobs.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
oh geez...

Ya see, when you make judgements on other people's moralities or the morality of the collective, then make presentations to back up your claim, it's not just for the halibut.

You know who else makes assumptions based on collective moralities? Religious nutjobs.
So it that your own special kinda way of avoiding the legitimate criticisms Sandel makes of capitalism?
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
We live in a crony-capitalist society, there is no other option for anyone but to use it
Our corrupted electorate has created and incrementally increased cronyism. A freer market without corporate entities would go a long way toward ending this. We are going in the opposite direction.

We actually DO have a choice to not play in the cronyism game by self supporting or black markets. Guess what though? through corruption and cronyism, laws are in place and black markets will land you in jail/prison which is another example of cronyism and corporatism in this country.

We see a lot of the same symptoms, we just disagree on the causes.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
There are many legitimate criticisms and most of those involve cronyism and corporatism.

If left to consensual contracts between two parties a lot of those criticisms go away. We don't really do that too much anymore.
Did you happen to watch the first clip? "Why we shouldn't trust markets with our civic life"?
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Our corrupted electorate has created and incrementally increased cronyism. A freer market without corporate entities would go a long way toward ending this. We are going in the opposite direction.

We actually DO have a choice to not play in the cronyism game by self supporting or black markets. Guess what though? through corruption and cronyism, laws are in place and black markets will land you in jail/prison which is another example of cronyism and corporatism in this country.

We see a lot of the same symptoms, we just disagree on the causes.
Deregulation and a failed economic policy is what caused this. Supply-side economics and deregulating the banking and financial industry

You think less restraints on those industries would help? Could you explain that?
 

NewtoMJ

Well-Known Member
The bigger issue goes beyond economic systems. as long as human beings, which are just animals with a higher form of communication, are in charge then things will always have flaws. The future is going to be AI governance. AI is not only faster in decision making, but it can add the level of objectivity that our species has been looking for in our short history.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
The bigger issue goes beyond economic systems. as long as human beings, which are just animals with a higher form of communication, are in charge then things will always have flaws. The future is going to be AI governance. AI is not only faster in decision making, but it can add the level of objectivity that our species has been looking for in our short history.
That would be the next logical approach, but scifi has done a pretty good job of showing the possible outcomes, so I think that alone will hinder progress on that front for at least another century. Then there's the added problem of getting people in positions of power to relinquish that power in favor of AI (which will likely never happen)

I'd be all for it though
 

ginwilly

Well-Known Member
Deregulation and a failed economic policy is what caused this. Supply-side economics and deregulating the banking and financial industry

You think less restraints on those industries would help? Could you explain that?
Pretty simplistic, but I'll go with it. Supply-side economics was followed by the most robust 25 year growth period in our nation's history. There were so many changes to what Reagan presented us during that time that the only way you can claim the 07' collapse was because of this is if you are a blind partisan non-thinker.

Repealing Glass-Steagall, NAFTA, Fannie and Freddie getting involved in cds while maintaining AAA and measures taken by the fed reserve had infinitely more to do with the collapse than supply-side economics. All measures taken after reaganomics.

It's not about the quantity of regulations, it's about the quality. Glass-Steagall would have prevented the banking crisis, while Dodd-Frank only makes the too big to fail bigger.

Impediments to markets is impediments to growth, doesn't take an economist to figure that one out. If I can't compete with the chain simply because of prohibitive start-up costs due to "we need regulations" then the chains gain more of the market share. I'm a fan of capitalism, it's corporatism and cronyism that sucks ass.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Pretty simplistic, but I'll go with it. Supply-side economics was followed by the most robust 25 year growth period in our nation's history. There were so many changes to what Reagan presented us during that time that the only way you can claim the 07' collapse was because of this is if you are a blind partisan non-thinker.

Repealing Glass-Steagall, NAFTA, Fannie and Freddie getting involved in cds while maintaining AAA and measures taken by the fed reserve had infinitely more to do with the collapse than supply-side economics. All measures taken after reaganomics.

It's not about the quantity of regulations, it's about the quality. Glass-Steagall would have prevented the banking crisis, while Dodd-Frank only makes the too big to fail bigger.

Impediments to markets is impediments to growth, doesn't take an economist to figure that one out. If I can't compete with the chain simply because of prohibitive start-up costs due to "we need regulations" then the chains gain more of the market share. I'm a fan of capitalism, it's corporatism and cronyism that sucks ass.
Evidence.

Where are your links, charts, data that supports this?
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
Arguing with moralizing socialists is tiresome. For carrying that burden, I commend my fellow commenters.

Quoting Lenin while moralizing is hilarious, so, for that mirth I thank you, wanker.
 
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