Breeding Question

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UpInSmoke420$24

Well-Known Member
Lockedin said:
Block-o-text is a bit tough to read - para breaks plz!

IMHO:
Yes, there are seeds / clones with original genetics
No, there's no guarantee that the seedbank you choose will have those genetics. Often they breed together a number of modern strains to achieve desired effects - in this case, "Old School"
Many are honest about it - just look for terms like, "Our take on", parentage or variations on the original name - GG#4 / GG / Gorilla Glue / Original Glue etc. are often used generically (as an example)
Humboldt Seed Co does this, but is pretty straight up about it, even showing lineage and F / BX and other details. Some of the description videos are pretty entertaining too. (I grew their OG Kush and really liked it.)
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I'm looking for Skunk #1; but I've come to the conclusion that it might not exist, and may never have truly been a "strain" as we know strains now.
The old hippy couple that I got mine from knew what they were doing - growing LOUD Skunk #1 - but there were always variations, and a lot of farmers actively bred to remove the smell to avoid detection - you could smell a large outdoor crop a LONG way off, especially if there was a NW wind (almost everyday...), so it made sense to breed out one of the things that could lead to a sentence.

It is confusing, and I'm no expert. IMHO, keep asking questions - but grow a skin - at some point you'll step on someone's shit-button and catch an eyeful, you might even spark another LED / HID controversy.
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Oh, don't worry. Already did that once. Tried asking a question about doing living soil with coco, and shit hit the oscillating fan and ended up everywhere lmfao. Someone mentioned Mr. Canuck and BOOM...29 pages later
 
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Schmickdundee

Active Member
UpInSmoke420$24 said:
So just a random question I was wondering. So many different seedbanks have the same strains for example...white widow, girl scout cookies, and so on. So, my question is are the actual real white widow/girl scout cookies, and other strains all from the exact same plants seeds/clone that were purchased from the breeder and then pollinated by the seed company to create a quantity of seeds to sell. Or do seedbanks create their own version of the strain by taking the two parents and cross breeding the parents to make the strain (for example: If I wanted seeds of the Girl Scout Cookies strain but I can't find any, could I buy OG Kush seeds or a clone and also buy Durban Poison seeds or a clone and crossbreed them. Would the resulting seeds from the OG Kush x Durban Poison cross that I created be considered Girl Scout Cookies seeds that I could sell under my brand) or do they just buy the original stain from the breeder and then produce a quantity of seeds from that (for example: I buy the Forum Cut Girl Scout Cookies clone and then self it to create fem seeds or so on to sell as Girl Scout Cookies seeds under my brand or I buy Mr. Nice's Black Widow seeds {original white widow} and create a quantity of seeds from those seeds I purchased from Mr. Nice, and sell them as White Widow seeds under my own brand). Just really trying to make sense of all this breeding stuff. It gets very complicated with F1's F2's F3's RBX1 BX1 IBX S1 S2 R1 R2 lmao. It is truly amazing how complex the cannabis plant is. If that was a little difficult to understand or keep up with, let me dumb it down a little bit. Maybe not dumb it down, but in the simplest way I can think of putting it...Let's use ILGM (I Love Growing Marijuana) for example. Let's use their Girl Scout Cookies for example. In order for them to call it Girl Scout Cookies...do the seeds they create to sell have to be from the original forum cut girl scout cookies or can they just buy any breeder out there's OG Kush and Durban Poison strains, cross them, and then sell the resulting seeds as Girl Scout Cookies seeds. So pretty much in lamest terms, if I bought ILGM's OG Kush and Durban Poison, and then crossed them (OG Kush x Durban Poison) would the resulting seeds be considered Girl Scout Cookies and how far off would they be from say the original Forum Girl Scout Cookies or if you were to use a different seed banks OG Kush and Durban Poison to make the Girl Scout Cookies.
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Heya mate.your questions are relevant when I look at the strains that you mention from different sources across the world I find the differences are many to the point of not recognizing them as what they tell you they are.
With this I feel if you were to get regular seed mothers grow them out then pick your favorites you would indeed have competitors.
I want to do something similar looking at Pakistani chitral with DP.
I'm not surprised to see DP as a base for so many modern crosses and it's not rocket science so good luck.
 
A

A.k.a

Well-Known Member
I’m just starting to learn breeding too.

from what I’ve gathered so far f1s will all be fairly similar and vigorous. F2 is where the variety comes in. So they thing to do would be grow a fuck ton of f2s out and find the pheno/smells you’re after and continue on with that.

something like 1 in 20 will express the rare traits (not that rare is automatically good here) so it could potentially take a pretty big sample size to get it done.
 
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Schmickdundee

Active Member
Y
A.k.a said:
I’m just starting to learn breeding too.

from what I’ve gathered so far f1s will all be fairly similar and vigorous. F2 is where the variety comes in. So they thing to do would be grow a fuck ton of f2s out and find the pheno/smells you’re after and continue on with that.

something like 1 in 20 will express the rare traits (not that rare is automatically good here) so it could potentially take a pretty big sample size to get it done.
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Yes the original breeders would cull from the very beginning even seedling stage only encouraging the best traits .by f4 or 5 you would be well on the way.
 
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stonedfood

Member
I can't help feeling like you got a lot of unstructured responses but no firm answer, so I'll do my best.

A strain is (typically) the named offspring of two parent plants. Each plant is a specific genetic individual and the strain may refer to all offspring of a specific parents or a specific offspring. This will hopefully be named in parentheses (()) as clone only, breeder cut or a specific cut name to identify its characteristics.

But this is where renaming rears its head for good and bad. Is it Beleaf White Truffle or Gorilla Butter F2 (Lost Coast - Beleaf "White Truffle" cut). I prefer attribution down to the plant as it creates genetic heritage chains which may work to help people find better medicine or even preserve specific characteristics which may only exist within a single plant at a specific point in time.

So in my book, if you get two sibling plants or clones of the parents you're doing a version or recreation or an homage. Every intentionally bred and selected plant isn't just a mixture of genetics but reflects the choices and ideation of the breeder(s) before you. If you're seriously paying attention to the cascading inheritance of traits and attributes of a specific line then grabbing a S1 or recreation just isn't the same, because you've re-rolled all the attributes of the parents in the hope of obtaining the 'same' result.

That's why white labelling and unattributed "GG#4" is a cancer on the industry.
 
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conor c

Well-Known Member
Well in the case of white widow its both theres the clone that predates seeds of it then the first decent seedline of it was released so what most seedbanks that have been around long enough did was either f2 ghs stock or find a cut in that and reverse it so companies like say dutch passion nirvana sensi etc all did/do this however when people lose the parents they lose the strain really cos selection is everything with cannabis/breeding thats why very few ww seedlines today that are even a shadow of what the earlier releases are sure they might all be genetically ww but unless its the right line with the right parents its not real white widow in reality
 
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stonedfood

Member
conor c said:
sure they might all be genetically ww but unless its the right line with the right parents its not real white widow in reality
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But they aren't genetically WW if they don't have the same parents governing their parameters. Sure, the nomenclature and history of some plants is confusing at best and BS ar worst, but getting the stuff after the strain name right is as important as the name itself, imo.
 
HenryTheEighth

HenryTheEighth

Well-Known Member
UpInSmoke420$24 said:
I understand you on that. There is alot of people quick to say they have a strain that is probably not even close to what they say it is. Unless you buy a reputable pack of seeds you don't know what your getting. Sometimes even the reputable breeders can be shady sometimes.
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It’s even more complex than that.
But also massively simple.

What you are talking about breeding is polyhybrids. What you are using is polyhybrids. That means your plants are made up of lots of different things. Your watermelon slush or whatever is made up of how many different things?

Old school strains were F1 hybrids like white widow. WW is Brazilian x South Indian. A cross of two different landrace. So kind of easy for others to copy. The good old days.

Now what goes on is everyone crossing crosses together by bottlenecking two phenos and calling it breeding. Then they test the cross to see what it smell like and give it a name like that. If it smells like ‘blueberry muffin leather boot’ then that’s what they selling.

And with polyhybrids even if you do have a genuine pack you may not get the genuine thing if a pack of seeds is less than the amount of phenos in the cross. If watermelon slush throws 12 phenos and you buy a 5 pack then that’s when the game gets shady.
 
amneziaHaze

amneziaHaze

Well-Known Member
think of it like this you and your brother fuck 2 sisters the kids are not gonna be the same its the same genetics but slight differences in parents will make a massive difference in the children. all of them are white widows but non of them are white widows.you might get best of the genetics you might get worst of the genetics, as the standard goes when making hybrids 1 in 4 will be compleatly different
 
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conor c

Well-Known Member
stonedfood said:
But they aren't genetically WW if they don't have the same parents governing their parameters. Sure, the nomenclature and history of some plants is confusing at best and BS ar worst, but getting the stuff after the strain name right is as important as the name itself, imo.
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On paper they are in practice your right they aint real ww in that case on a side note i think joey weed and nirvana are about the only two places still selling ww that resembles ww anyway as there older ghs f2s so the right line
 
amneziaHaze

amneziaHaze

Well-Known Member
conor c said:
On paper they are in practice your right they aint real ww in that case on a side note i think joey weed and nirvana are about the only two places still selling ww that resembles ww anyway as there older ghs f2s so the right line
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isnt mr.Nice seeds the original white widow. i think he renamed it to black widow for some reason but i fought he was the original
 
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conor c

Well-Known Member
amneziaHaze said:
isnt mr.Nice seeds the original white widow. i think he renamed it to black widow for some reason but i fought he was the original
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Was its nothing like it now tho plus in the most recent stream shanti admitted in his seeds now it take roughly 50 seeds to hit the proper widow pheno like the cut was so id look elsewhere if was me i bet you can find a good one in less seeds with the ones i mentioned hence why i dont mention black widow its a shame id always rather go with the original breeder where possible but if it aint what i want/right line of it anymore i will look elsewhere and as for original breeder it depends of the famous seedline everyone knows as ww he is yes 100% as for the clone only those seeds were made from its supposed to be older than him being in amsterdam so idk its a murky one mate
 
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