Blackwater

CrackerJax

New Member
You do not see the necessity for providing resources to at risk and underprivelaged families? Do you not recognize the relationship between poverty, desperation and crime?

The political agenda of ACORN was to provide a forum in which disadvantaged people had a voice and a vote.

The social agenda was to provide information and guidance on housing, employment, education and community service. Those services, IMO, are necessary in many communities. Most disadvantaged people want out of the cycle of poverty and ignorance--but do not often have the resources and information to achieve a better life.

Do not forget that the only reason a contracted security force is necessary in Iraq is bc we invaded them and bombed the shit out their country w NO PROVOCATION and no PLAN.

Often, instead of providing security, Blackwater and contracted forces, bc of their atrocious behaviors, further instill dread and hatred for Americans in that part of the world.

Again, if we are footing the bill--there needs to be protocol in place that is not counter-productive to the actual mission and that does not allow for the gross violation of human rights.
ACORN is completely redundant. No one would go without if Acorn disappeared tomorrow. they are of no positive consequence comparable of the actual destruction they place on our election process alone, never mind helping a child slave labor pimp. Both are heinous acts, but the first is widespread and weakens the fabric of the nation.
 

naked gardener

Active Member
Even liberal globalists believe security is a commodity e.g. PM Barnett. Labor is another commodity. Pearls before swine.

Economics 101: Labor is a form of 'capital', or 'human capital'. Just bc mega corporations have outsourced labor does not make it a commodity. That only means that corps. are seeking the most capital at the least cost & w the greatest return on their investment.

Labor as a commodity is also known as slavery, for again, in economic terms, Labor is just another word for human capital~~and when humans are bought and sold as a commodity for labor, that is widely considered slavery.

Labor=Capital, not commodity. Commodity = goods to be sold or traded

Now, because wealthy powerful interests, in direct association w many of our elected officials, have distorted the whole "war industry" w no bid contracts and impervious armed militias--BECAUSE THESE POWERFUL INTERESTS ARE BLATANTLY ATTEMPTING TO TURN SECURITY INTO A COMMODITY FOR THEIR OWN PERSONAL GAIN AND POWER does not mean that citizens should accept this notion as anything other than perverse war profiteering.

Cracker, I reluctantly agree about ACORN being redundant, though IMO, the comparison and debate are still valid.
If acorn attempted to give the poor a "slick" advantage when it comes to electons, just remember all the advantages the rich have at their disposal for poitical purposes.
 
I

Illegal Smile

Guest
Economics 101: Labor is a form of 'capital', or 'human capital'. Just bc mega corporations have outsourced labor does not make it a commodity. That only means that corps. are seeking the most capital at the least cost & w the greatest return on their investment.

Labor as a commodity is also known as slavery, for again, in economic terms, Labor is just another word for human capital~~and when humans are bought and sold as a commodity for labor, that is widely considered slavery.

Labor=Capital, not commodity. Commodity = goods to be sold or traded

Now, because wealthy powerful interests, in direct association w many of our elected officials, have distorted the whole "war industry" w no bid contracts and impervious armed militias--BECAUSE THESE POWERFUL INTERESTS ARE BLATANTLY ATTEMPTING TO TURN SECURITY INTO A COMMODITY FOR THEIR OWN PERSONAL GAIN AND POWER does not mean that citizens should accept this notion as anything other than perverse war profiteering.

Cracker, I reluctantly agree about ACORN being redundant, though IMO, the comparison and debate are still valid.
If acorn attempted to give the poor a "slick" advantage when it comes to electons, just remember all the advantages the rich have at their disposal for poitical purposes.
You have absolutely no fucking idea what you are talking about. If you did you would understand that proclaiming labor a commodity that must move freely in the world along with energy, capital and security, is one of the most liberal notions you will EVER hear me espouse.
 

ilkhan

Well-Known Member
I don't give a fuck about south africa or liberia or seira leon.
Sometimes countries need jobs done they can't get done on their own.
I would rather see them hire contractors
then send national armies around the world
looking for monsters to slay.

The UN is ineffective.
We can't afford to police the world.
Mercs are a viable solution IMO.
I would rather see them hired by their host country.
Not by the CIA personally.

They need a grading system.
With legal recource for contract violations and misconduct.
In a lot of ways I can see this being superior to raising a national army.
Especialy in the poor regions of the world.
 

naked gardener

Active Member
You have absolutely no fucking idea what you are talking about. If you did you would understand that proclaiming labor a commodity that must move freely in the world along with energy, capital and security, is one of the most liberal notions you will EVER hear me espouse.

I have a very clear understanding of what I am talking about. What have I posted that is inaccurate? (PLEASE ANSWER THIS)

I don't give a shit what your political ideology is...what does that have to do w me (and anyone else who grasps the fundamental basics of economics) disagreeing w your faulty understanding of commodities vs capital? Or your notion of security being a "physical good" to be sold to highest (or best connected) bidder, despite their track record of corruption and abuse.

DO YOU EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT?~~I WAS TRYING TO GIVE YOU THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT--BUT NO MORE BENEFIT...ONLY DOUBT :-?
 

naked gardener

Active Member
QUOTING ILLEGALSMILE: "proclaiming labor a commodity that must move freely in the world along with energy, capital and security, is one of the most liberal notions you will EVER hear me espouse." end quote

WHAT?

Sir, YOU are very clearly confused on many levels. Proclaiming that labor is a commodity is FAR from Liberal!! (as well as incorrect). As a matter of fact, there is a clause w/in the Sherman Anti-trust Act that proclaims that LABOR IS NOT A COMMODITY. The Antitrust laws, by nature, fall on the liberal side as they are designed to regulate big business for the protection of both consumers and workers.

It is only elite big business (which, btw, aren't typically leaning to the left) that benefit from treating labor as a commodity--workers, consumers and citizens suffer from it. Unfortunately, those influential powers are trying to create a culture in which labor IS a commodity---and unfortunately they have done enough to weaken labor in this country...they are almost successful. But this is by no means a "rule" of the "free market", nor should it be accepted as such.
 

Hydrotech364

Well-Known Member
I don't give a fuck about south africa or liberia or seira leon.
Sometimes countries need jobs done they can't get done on their own.
I would rather see them hire contractors
then send national armies around the world
looking for monsters to slay.

The UN is ineffective.
We can't afford to police the world.
Mercs are a viable solution IMO.
I would rather see them hired by their host country.
Not by the CIA personally.

They need a grading system.
With legal recource for contract violations and misconduct.
In a lot of ways I can see this being superior to raising a national army.
Especialy in the poor regions of the world.
They are hired by the State dept.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Naked, in life, all life, rank carries privilege, true enough.

But you leave off the capper to that truism.

Rank carries added responsibility, and risk. Why do ppl become wealthy? Most assume great risk and work themselves towards their goals using hard work and education.

Anyone who applies and builds a model such as that, will advance economically. It isn't magic. All that is needed is for the govt. to get out of the way and stop holding the poor back with socialized programs which inevitably steal their steam for improving their lot ON THEIR OWN.

It's in the individual achievement and rewards that bring personal happiness, not the $$$. The govt. hands out "free" (it's not) $$$, but happiness is not included, nor can it be. Happiness comes from within the individual, and that is best served by getting the govt. reduced and opening up the markets to all individuals WILLING to APPLY themselves.
 

naked gardener

Active Member
Naked, in life, all life, rank carries privilege, true enough.

But you leave off the capper to that truism.

Rank carries added responsibility, and risk. Why do ppl become wealthy? Most assume great risk and work themselves towards their goals using hard work and education.

Anyone who applies and builds a model such as that, will advance economically. It isn't magic. All that is needed is for the govt. to get out of the way and stop holding the poor back with socialized programs which inevitably steal their steam for improving their lot ON THEIR OWN.

It's in the individual achievement and rewards that bring personal happiness, not the $$$. The govt. hands out "free" (it's not) $$$, but happiness is not included, nor can it be. Happiness comes from within the individual, and that is best served by getting the govt. reduced and opening up the markets to all individuals WILLING to APPLY themselves.
Oh CrackerJax, C'mom!!! Man, I wish what you said was still true--but i'm afraid, for the most part, those times have past.

Before I continue, I want to make it clear that while I am definitely a 'humanist', I am far from a bleeding heart. I am just as disgusted as anyone about lazy, ignorant people who want something for nothing. People who are unwilling to work, to try, to make a few sacrifices and take a few risks, if it means bettering their life and taking the brunt off of society, do not have my sympathy what-so-ever.

However, In today's world "rank and privilege" has a lot more to do w who knocked your mom up than hard work and risk-taking. Many of a persons real options and opportunities in life are shaped by the circumstances they are born into. The exceptions to this often come from outside intervention & help.

People born into undesirable circumstances NEED others from society to INFORM and EDUCATE them on how use resources & achieve a better life. They need to know that someone is paying attention to how they are going to turn out. I support Gov't programs that provide those services. (I am a volunteer at the Educational Opportunity Center in my region where we help underprivelaged H.S. students fill out FASFA forms, apply for scholarships and create an education plan. We tutor at-risk HS students, so instead of them dropping out to become a mooch on society, they go to college.)

On the other hand, when it comes to straight up welfare (outside of health care) I mostly oppose it altogether. I believe in extremely strict guidelines and temporary assistance only for emergency use only. I believe those who recieve gov't money should be subject to drug tests, and should have to perform community services to pay society back.

I believe that when people are given information and resources--it is in thier court to USE them. BUT--the resources have to be provided somehow.

How many people worked hard and took risks just to have everything pulled out from under them by a bunch of wealthy robber-barons? (i.e. bankers and investment groups that were supposed to be selling a service that provided financial security)
I guess the latter did take great risks by scamming and stealing from thousands of men and women who did work hard and APPLY themselves--and for many of those bankers, it did pay off.
(But only for the most elite there as well--many bankers who were fired were only operating under the orders of their superiors~~who are still raking in big bonuses instead of investing back into the country.)

How many have worked their ass off for years, are halfway throught their mortgage, and are now laid off, or fired, having thier positions outsourced and/or replaced by desperate workers willing to work for less bc their company shit-canned them last year?

With rank comes responsibility--true enough--but who is holding anyone accountable for ANYTHING?

You're talking a lot about theory--I'm talking a lot about reality.

The scheme in this country is a carrot on a fucking stick.

I see firsthand, on a regular basis, the difference that a little information and guidance can make for the underprivelaged. That is why this whole deal about ACORN pisses me off (esp. in light of Blackwater).
And hey, guess what, the rich have been shaping politics FOREVER--so if a few questionable votes came in for the politician who promised to champion the underdog--well, that's just politics--you take what you can, anyway you can--the rich have always done it--the poor tried, and as a result, ACORN was crushed

even tho we may disagree, I appreciate the intelligent and respectful debate.
 

uriah

Active Member
I'm sure there are plenty of things about Blackwater that I don't like. But they wouldn't be there if there weren't a market. Security is a commodity. It may be the future for nations that recognize the need for security to be exported to the trouble spots of the world but don't want to do it themselves to outsource it. The worst alternative is not to inject any security at all into those places.
How long before security companies create their own market. Much like a mechanic that fixes a water pump, but sabotages the radiator?

So without Blackwater, who will do the construction in war zones? Ma Bell?
Require the company doing the rebuilding to contract their security and hold the contracting company accountable for any malfeasance under UN law.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Oh, okay, that won't create any problems having hundreds of different little para military outfits guarding JUST their contractors....:roll: That won't increase the taxbill many times over..... :roll:

Besides all that, it won't do anything to reduce mistakes. It's a warzone.....
 

abe23

Active Member
I don't give a fuck about south africa or liberia or seira leon.
Sometimes countries need jobs done they can't get done on their own.
I would rather see them hire contractors
then send national armies around the world
looking for monsters to slay.

The UN is ineffective.
We can't afford to police the world.
Mercs are a viable solution IMO.
I would rather see them hired by their host country.
Not by the CIA personally.

They need a grading system.
With legal recource for contract violations and misconduct.
In a lot of ways I can see this being superior to raising a national army.
Especialy in the poor regions of the world.
Ok, you live in the world of opinion not in the world of facts, then....

I explained to you why you were wrong with the one example you gave of mercenaries being a positive force. You said you don't care.

These people are above the law or at least think they are and it looks like we both agree that it's a problem.

So, apart from your opinions and theories about what's good for poor people around the world, there is nothing good about having private militaries.
 

abe23

Active Member
Oh, okay, that won't create any problems having hundreds of different little para military outfits guarding JUST their contractors....:roll: That won't increase the taxbill many times over..... :roll:

Besides all that, it won't do anything to reduce mistakes. It's a warzone.....
Holding them accountable for murder might reduce mistakes. Even in a warzone...
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Holding them accountable for murder might reduce mistakes. Even in a warzone...

I agree with that. If murder takes place, it needs to be addressed. No argument there, but I don't see an alternative to having Blackwater. They get things done in an environment that make most ppl wet their pants. They are placed in harms way, it's gotta be dangerous as all get up at times. Things happen.

Having an incident doesn't turn the good guys into bad guys however. The overall mission there was good, good as gold. Ppl are free to choose. Right now, they are implementing programs to make sure each citizen shares in their oil bounty. Before, most of it went to Saddam and Co. That's a real good outcome for them and us. This is exactly what the Islamic extremists and a smattering of Arab/Persian nations fear. Kuwait is another example of what happens when a "reasonable" govt. is set up and ALL the ppl benefit, as opposed to being metered out through the siphon of a corrupt govt entity or Kingdom.

They fear our democracy and representation given to the common man.

It's about control, as always.
 

natrone23

Well-Known Member
I could have guarded those construction workers in Iraq.


My Battalion was in Okinawa during the invasion of 2003.


Traditionally the Military did those jobs (who woulda thunk it:shock:).




Shit just why not hire the whole thing out than?
 

uriah

Active Member
Oh, okay, that won't create any problems having hundreds of different little para military outfits guarding JUST their contractors....:roll: That won't increase the taxbill many times over..... :roll:

Besides all that, it won't do anything to reduce mistakes. It's a warzone.....
Any company that has to contract their own security would be more apt to properly supervise those contracted. As for the taxbill, if your putting a price on life and safety, why did we go to war?

Shit just why not hire the whole thing out than?
It was, why else were we there? Weapons of mass destruction?
 

CrackerJax

New Member
I've already addressed that. The military doesn't want umpteen merc security forces running around in an uncoordinated fashion. Think war is chaos now ... ur thinking would complicate it much more.

Central command is the way to go ... always.
 
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