Bicarbonates, And seems to be a lock-out issue.

Ok, just had my water tested. Running off a well. 460 ml/g (or ppm's) are my total tds, right out of the tap. It seems to be the mass of which are bicarbonates(330 mg/l). My leaves are yellowing. Some starting at the top. Pic's are the progression. First leaf to the left is normal. IMG_4371.jpg

Closer pics: IMG_4372.jpgIMG_4373.jpgIMG_4374.jpg

The only other results are; 100 mg/l Calcium, 32 mg/l Magnesium, 11 mg/l Sodium, 1 mg/l Potassium, 8.1 mg/l Chloride and 94 mg/l Sulfate as SO4.
 
May be some chlorosis but pic 4 looks like veins yellowing more than leaf. I'm thinking lack of N that may be caused partly by High soil ph.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorosis

Ground cover in pic is not good looking stuff. I would try testing soil or maybe having county extension service give you a soil analysis.

Your water seems to have cal and some mag but the bicarbonates can screw up ph.

If you can't do soil tests maybe feeding 1/2 strength water soluable 19-8-13 or something close to get N and K ratios up.
 
May be some chlorosis but pic 4 looks like veins yellowing more than leaf. I'm thinking lack of N that may be caused partly by High soil ph.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorosis

Ground cover in pic is not good looking stuff. I would try testing soil or maybe having county extension service give you a soil analysis.

Your water seems to have cal and some mag but the bicarbonates can screw up ph.

If you can't do soil tests maybe feeding 1/2 strength water soluable 19-8-13 or something close to get N and K ratios up.



I'm growing in Roots Organic/ Kelloggs Patio Plus w/added perlite and 1 cf ewc. per 200 gal smart pots. IMG_4369.jpg

I'd imagine my soil is fine. That pic is my driveway.

I've also been feeding them a 300-400 ppm /Maxsea/Fox Fams/Bonticare/etc. depending on day.

Water out of tap is 7.3-7.5. I ph it to 6.6-6.8.

I'm not sure in what relation my run-off ph is from soil ph, but the run-off is 5.8-6.0.

From what I gathered, Bicarbonates are all kinds of bad. Sodium Bicarbonate, basically baking soda will prevent calcium absorption, and several lock-out issues. I was curious if anyone had experience with it.

To me, it looks like quite a few deficiencies. I really shows the day after I feed. Straight water seems to slow the progress. For now I'm gonna top dress my plants with .3 lbs of gypsum. And PH my water to 6.0. The acidic water should counteract the alkaline bicarbonates, from what I've read. Anybody have any thoughts?
 
Might be just me. But that seems like you're a little light on the food. That's a big plant and that really looks like the beginnings of a basic N deff.

Larger, mature leaves give up the N for the new growth, yellow up and drop. With macro deficiencies you see more spotting and dark necrosis. At least I do.

Bicarbs are what Green Cure is. People use it as a fungicide.

Can you filter your water?
 
Every time I've seen an underfed plant the whole entire plant seemed to yellow. But in that last pic you can see some newer growth is yellowing and burning.

From my limited knowledge bicarbs in well-water over 100 ppm are bad. I'm three times that. Here's a little read: bicarbs.

And from an article I can't seem to find now:

"Bicarbonates
The bicarbonate level of water is often overlooked in irrigation water analysis. As soils dry, the bicarbonates will precipitate with calcium, reducing calcium availability and increasing the level of sodium relative to calcium. This will lead to the development of a thin surface layer that can impede water infiltration and increases water runoff. Bicarbonate has also been shown to be toxic to roots and reduces root growth and the uptake of phosphorus and many of the micronutrients. Bicarbonate levels above 100 ppm are sufficient enough to cause concern. Concentrations greater than 200 ppm may pose a potential hazard. Levels in the Missouri River valley wells are usually high.
Since bicarbonates react with calcium to form calcium carbonate and render the calcium unavailable in high pH soils. Amendments that are acid forming will neutralize the bicarbonate and are recommended to offset the ill effects. Gypsum, although not acid forming, is effective in supplying soluble calcium to react with the bicarbonate or to replace calcium that has been removed from soil solution by the bicarbonate."

We roughly go through 500-600 gals a day. I really cant afford a $2000 RO filter atm.:sad:
 
Every time I've seen an underfed plant the whole entire plant seemed to yellow. But in that last pic you can see some newer growth is yellowing and burning.

From my limited knowledge bicarbs in well-water over 100 ppm are bad. I'm three times that. Here's a little read: bicarbs.

And from an article I can't seem to find now:

"Bicarbonates
The bicarbonate level of water is often overlooked in irrigation water analysis. As soils dry, the bicarbonates will precipitate with calcium, reducing calcium availability and increasing the level of sodium relative to calcium. This will lead to the development of a thin surface layer that can impede water infiltration and increases water runoff. Bicarbonate has also been shown to be toxic to roots and reduces root growth and the uptake of phosphorus and many of the micronutrients. Bicarbonate levels above 100 ppm are sufficient enough to cause concern. Concentrations greater than 200 ppm may pose a potential hazard. Levels in the Missouri River valley wells are usually high.
Since bicarbonates react with calcium to form calcium carbonate and render the calcium unavailable in high pH soils. Amendments that are acid forming will neutralize the bicarbonate and are recommended to offset the ill effects. Gypsum, although not acid forming, is effective in supplying soluble calcium to react with the bicarbonate or to replace calcium that has been removed from soil solution by the bicarbonate."

We roughly go through 500-600 gals a day. I really cant afford a $2000 RO filter atm.:sad:


Yeah, it's weird, it sort of looks like heat burn from like a light bulb. Cause it looks to be only on one or two fingers on per leaf. Not the whole leaf.. Someone out working at night with a shop light? Have or carry a heater though there? lol just stabbing in the dark.. No bugs? Caterpillars? Tiki lamps? Flame thrower misfire?

You don't have to filter all the water.. You can just filter enough to get the total down to acceptable amounts. Plus a merlin (with the right pressure) can do 700 a day and that's not more then a few hundred bucks. A day being 24hours.. so you'd have to store a lot of that.. But.. if that's what it takes. Does it have to be RO'd to get rid of the bicarbs?
 
Just expressing my thoughts. Not pretending to know your issue. You have obviously have a substantial investment with huge overhead. You have an elemental breakdown of the water if you also had a detailed soil analysis of your mix you could have the antagonistic effects of soil and water elements calculated. Then you can calculate the feeding. At least in theory anyway. Its what all commercial farmers do to calculate sustainability and potential harvest before they prey for weather that will not wipe them out. Your investment is too big for guessing games. I know this does not apply to MJ but no soil analysis = no crop insurance. Thats fairly equal to a crap shoot.

Good Luck:!:
 
Just expressing my thoughts. Not pretending to know your issue. You have obviously have a substantial investment with huge overhead. You have an elemental breakdown of the water if you also had a detailed soil analysis of your mix you could have the antagonistic effects of soil and water elements calculated. Then you can calculate the feeding. At least in theory anyway. Its what all commercial farmers do to calculate sustainability and potential harvest before they prey for weather that will not wipe them out. Your investment is too big for guessing games. I know this does not apply to MJ but no soil analysis = no crop insurance. Thats fairly equal to a crap shoot.

Good Luck:!:

Yeah no joke, still 9 weeks to go and 20k in. I feed well, and I don't over do it...

First off, I have a friend with two of my three phenomes. Same soil mix, from the same pallet and (hopefully) the same feeding regiment. He's running off city water. And his plants look similar to my largest un-affected ones. He's not having a problem.

This actually happened last year here. All the leaves yellowed, browned and fell off. We ended up with extremely potent weed, but all small and stunted. Right around the same time, end of August. My guess is the water table is running low. We had shit for rain until March, when it rained enough to pull Cali out of the drought zone. The water table gets low and these salts leach from the ground into my well; that's my guess.

I was hoping any experienced with this found a way to treat this with their existing water source.:sad:


Yeah, it's weird, it sort of looks like heat burn from like a light bulb. Cause it looks to be only on one or two fingers on per leaf. Not the whole leaf.. Someone out working at night with a shop light? Have or carry a heater though there? lol just stabbing in the dark.. No bugs? Caterpillars? Tiki lamps? Flame thrower misfire?

You don't have to filter all the water.. You can just filter enough to get the total down to acceptable amounts. Plus a merlin (with the right pressure) can do 700 a day and that's not more then a few hundred bucks. A day being 24hours.. so you'd have to store a lot of that.. But.. if that's what it takes. Does it have to be RO'd to get rid of the bicarbs?

Thanks eDude,

I probably would of caught them on my game cameras...

My bicarbs are high, probably 10x over normal. I'm still searching the web for solutions. I'm not to sure how well an RO would work. I see a commercial RO filter in the classifieds. They paid $3k and want 1.5. Maybe I'll check it out. Thanks guys.
 
Back
Top