b-vitamin booster = super thrive?

haole420

Active Member
the guy at the hydro shop pushed a bottle of final drive on me as a bud hardener. after adding it to my res, my plants took off again sprouting more roots and more pistils. the ingredients on the label, its appearance, and its smell seem awfully similar to super thrive. is final drive (or any b-vitamin finishing additive) pretty much the same thing as superthrive? basically b vitamins and hormones?
 

haole420

Active Member
Lesson learned! Don't always listen to the guys at the hydro store!
that wasn't really what i was alluding too. i guess by "push" i meant after i asked for a bloom booster for the last two weeks, he recommended this one for hydro in hydroton.

final drive did deliver results. i'm just wondering if it's the same as super thrive, which isn't exactly cheap either. superthrive is $40-50/quart while final drive is $30/liter.
 

Clown Baby

Well-Known Member
IMO superthrive is a rip. A label like that could never come out under todays regulations. The only reason they're still able to sell it with that label is because it was grandfathered in before laws were passed.

There's not a lot of info online about final drive. It's made by Flora corp?
 

Uncle Pirate

Active Member
[video]http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda%20chalker-scott/horticultural%20myths_files/Myths/Vitamin%20B1.pdf[/video]
 

haole420

Active Member
[video]http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda%20chalker-scott/horticultural%20myths_files/Myths/Vitamin%20B1.pdf[/video]
the research in that article suggests that b1 doesn't do anything to stimulate ROOT growth, but that's not what this product is supposed to do. it was pitched to me as a "bud hardener" that will promote more intense flowering and denser buds. there were no claims that it was supposed to boost root growth. i don't believe superthrive makes any such claims regarding root growth either. not sure where that came from, but, ok. point taken.

that's not to say that b1 doesn't benefit plants.

there was sudden new root growth, which i am not attributing to b1, but the likely presence of IBA (like the article says) or other known rooting hormones in the bottle. my roots swim around outside the hydroton baskets, so i can see what goes on day to day. new root growth hasn't been visible for more than a month. three days after adding final drive, i saw nice, white, quickly growing root tips, nicely branched as well. the active root tips probably grew about 6" before stopping. superthrive also had a similar effect when i added it earlier in my grow, but, again, superthrive also has hormones, which are most likely responsible.

i don't think they're adding IBA to encourage root growth during the last few weeks of flowering. i think that is just a side effect, not necessarily a bad one. IBA is a stress hormone, so pumping it into your plants will cause a stress response that would normally be triggered by some kind of adverse conditions (too cold/hot, too dim/bright, too humid/dry, too wet/dry, not enough nutes, too many nutes, not enough DO, pruning, pest infestation, disease, etc.). stress supposedly causes the plant to freak out and do what it needs to do in a hurry, which is make more flowers to try and catch pollen so that it can create seeds and reproduce.

new pistil growth was slowing. after adding final drive, a fresh new round of pistils exploded everywhere. i know my plants and they were starting to wind down. adding final drive really made them pop one last time.

finally, the strong "vitamin" smell went away after just 24 hours or so, which suggests a pretty quick uptake. i don't think the fish would've absorbed/used THAT much b1 and they would've peed out the excess (like humans) anyway. the other possibility is that some microbe present in my aquaponic water broke down the b1, but i doubt that that's the case. i'll put my money on the plants.

so back to b1. in order to understand the benefits of b1, you need to understand what b1 does in a plant. b1 is essential to produce ATP, which is the smallest unit of energy in the plant (and your body). biology 101 stuff. if you need a refresher, google citric acid cycle, krebs cycle, ATP.

check out the abstract for this study:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176161711812496

soybean roots and leaves both absorbed vitamin b1. b1 absorbed from the roots were very mobile and was detected in new tissue growth. they could distinguish the b1 molecules that they fed the plant with b1 molecules produced by the plant itself or by soil microbes using something called 14C thiazole labeling: they can literally tag individual molecules of b1.

after 7 days, the amount of measured 14C labeled b1 molecules in plant tissue samples was reduced by 50%, which is no surprise, given that vitamin b1 is essential for plant metabolism. the point is, plants can actually store and use "extra" b1. while this study was specific to soy beans, all plants use ATP so all plants require b1 to function. it doesn't necessarily need to be supplemented, but it is a molecule that is very, very important to plant metabolism.

to suggest that the benefits of b1 are some kind of urban myth is, in fact, a myth in itself.

so from these two articles, here are the scientific facts about b1 and plants:

1. b1 does not stimulate root growth
2. b1 is essential for plants to survive
3. healthy plants produce b1 endogenously
4. certain soil microbes produce b1 exogenously
5. plants can absorb b1 through roots and leaves
6. b1 absorbed through the roots is very mobile
7. plants can store and utilize b1 absorbed through roots and leaves

now, surely there are folks who will say they've grown kickass weed for years without adding b1, and i don't dispute that that's the case and that is possible. like the studies say, plants are capable of producing their own b1. however, that doesn't mean that adding b1 does not have a beneficial effect, especially in hydro where there are no b1-synthesizing soil microbes. the study says precisely the opposite, that plants can, in fact, absorb and utilize "extra" b1 fed through the roots.

for me and my system and my current strain, i can report that adding a b1 supplement with hormones made my buds go crazy one last time. i think the reason you don't just add it from day 1 of flowering is because the stress hormones will work against you at a certain point, even herming out on you, just like with any kind of excessive stress you subject your girls too.

if you've got buckets going or are in soil, a side-by-side controlled experiment would be easy enough to do to prove it to yourself.
 

haole420

Active Member
Looks like final drive is 1-5-4 with b1, b6, b12, and vit c (citric acid), which is also obviously used in the citric acid cycle
 

Uncle Pirate

Active Member
Thanks for the info, but it doesn't contain one shred of evidence that plants benefit from getting higher levels of thiamine nor does say one thing about hardening buds.
Is b1 whats keeping your grow so dank? Where's your fan leaves man?




the research in that article suggests that b1 doesn't do anything to stimulate ROOT growth, but that's not what this product is supposed to do. it was pitched to me as a "bud hardener" that will promote more intense flowering and denser buds. there were no claims that it was supposed to boost root growth. i don't believe superthrive makes any such claims regarding root growth either. not sure where that came from, but, ok. point taken.

that's not to say that b1 doesn't benefit plants.

there was sudden new root growth, which i am not attributing to b1, but the likely presence of IBA (like the article says) or other known rooting hormones in the bottle. my roots swim around outside the hydroton baskets, so i can see what goes on day to day. new root growth hasn't been visible for more than a month. three days after adding final drive, i saw nice, white, quickly growing root tips, nicely branched as well. the active root tips probably grew about 6" before stopping. superthrive also had a similar effect when i added it earlier in my grow, but, again, superthrive also has hormones, which are most likely responsible.

i don't think they're adding IBA to encourage root growth during the last few weeks of flowering. i think that is just a side effect, not necessarily a bad one. IBA is a stress hormone, so pumping it into your plants will cause a stress response that would normally be triggered by some kind of adverse conditions (too cold/hot, too dim/bright, too humid/dry, too wet/dry, not enough nutes, too many nutes, not enough DO, pruning, pest infestation, disease, etc.). stress supposedly causes the plant to freak out and do what it needs to do in a hurry, which is make more flowers to try and catch pollen so that it can create seeds and reproduce.

new pistil growth was slowing. after adding final drive, a fresh new round of pistils exploded everywhere. i know my plants and they were starting to wind down. adding final drive really made them pop one last time.

finally, the strong "vitamin" smell went away after just 24 hours or so, which suggests a pretty quick uptake. i don't think the fish would've absorbed/used THAT much b1 and they would've peed out the excess (like humans) anyway. the other possibility is that some microbe present in my aquaponic water broke down the b1, but i doubt that that's the case. i'll put my money on the plants.

so back to b1. in order to understand the benefits of b1, you need to understand what b1 does in a plant. b1 is essential to produce ATP, which is the smallest unit of energy in the plant (and your body). biology 101 stuff. if you need a refresher, google citric acid cycle, krebs cycle, ATP.

check out the abstract for this study:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176161711812496

soybean roots and leaves both absorbed vitamin b1. b1 absorbed from the roots were very mobile and was detected in new tissue growth. they could distinguish the b1 molecules that they fed the plant with b1 molecules produced by the plant itself or by soil microbes using something called 14C thiazole labeling: they can literally tag individual molecules of b1.

after 7 days, the amount of measured 14C labeled b1 molecules in plant tissue samples was reduced by 50%, which is no surprise, given that vitamin b1 is essential for plant metabolism. the point is, plants can actually store and use "extra" b1. while this study was specific to soy beans, all plants use ATP so all plants require b1 to function. it doesn't necessarily need to be supplemented, but it is a molecule that is very, very important to plant metabolism.

to suggest that the benefits of b1 are some kind of urban myth is, in fact, a myth in itself.

so from these two articles, here are the scientific facts about b1 and plants:

1. b1 does not stimulate root growth
2. b1 is essential for plants to survive
3. healthy plants produce b1 endogenously
4. certain soil microbes produce b1 exogenously
5. plants can absorb b1 through roots and leaves
6. b1 absorbed through the roots is very mobile
7. plants can store and utilize b1 absorbed through roots and leaves

now, surely there are folks who will say they've grown kickass weed for years without adding b1, and i don't dispute that that's the case and that is possible. like the studies say, plants are capable of producing their own b1. however, that doesn't mean that adding b1 does not have a beneficial effect, especially in hydro where there are no b1-synthesizing soil microbes. the study says precisely the opposite, that plants can, in fact, absorb and utilize "extra" b1 fed through the roots.

for me and my system and my current strain, i can report that adding a b1 supplement with hormones made my buds go crazy one last time. i think the reason you don't just add it from day 1 of flowering is because the stress hormones will work against you at a certain point, even herming out on you, just like with any kind of excessive stress you subject your girls too.

if you've got buckets going or are in soil, a side-by-side controlled experiment would be easy enough to do to prove it to yourself.
 
I fed my plants super thrive and had a mayonaise jar sized portion of slime by the next day!! I had never seen so much slime in my life!!
 

haole420

Active Member
well, since you called me out, i'm going to have to throw down. here are pictures from the same grow, my current grow, from a few minutes ago, day 98, week 14, silver haze. that picture you posted, by the way, was from just after i pruned, a little over a month ago.

2012-12-07_07-15-56_121.jpg2012-12-07_07-16-37_847.jpg2012-12-07_07-16-59_863.jpg2012-12-07_07-17-50_115.jpg2012-12-07_07-18-22_817.jpg2012-12-07_07-17-18_913.jpg2012-12-07_07-17-11_845.jpg

so, you were saying? something about fan leaves? to answer your question, no, it's not b1 that's keeping my buds so dank, but yeah, they are hella dank and i do believe it is making them more dank. thanks for pointing that out.

what is keeping them dank is the aquaponic system, no doubt, but that's a whole other endless debate.

if you'll note in the last two closeups the orange pistils. those were the pistils from before i added final drive. i still had some white ones filling out into calyxes, but no new pistils. the orange pistils were slowly creeping to the top.

see the fresh, plump white pistils? those are new and are from about mid-cola, not the top. they appeared 3 days after adding about 500cc of final drive to my 100gal system, which is par for the course: i usually see the results of a feed three days later. see the curled up white pistils? those are the ones that are still erupting from the swollen calyxes.

it had been about two weeks since i last fed (CNS17 bloom, koolbloom powder, liquid karma, calmag, epsom salt). i know my plants are sucking down about 100ppm+/day when i had the fan leaves. once i pruned, it went down significantly, then peaked at about 70ppm/day a few weeks ago. i know this because i not only monitor that shit, i log it. nutrient uptake slowed to about 20ppm/day. that, combined with the maturing pistils, swelling calyxes, milky slightly amber trichs all indicated that my plants, which were 13 weeks old at the time, were winding down.

after adding final drive, i got tons of new pistils, slightly plumper than they ever were, more trichs, and fatter calyxes. the photos tell the whole story. nutrient uptake is back up to about 40ppm/day. so you tell me: still think, during the 13th week, more that two weeks after the last feed, plants that are slowing down are just going to pop with new vitality on their own? everything else was constant, especially since it's a fully recirculating aquaponic system. the only intervention was addition of final drive.

final drive worked as advertized, hardening my buds by causing them to split like fractals. each new pistil will mature into another fat, pea-sized calyx.

so, i still have to concede, you are right. god knows what's in that bottle and i am unable to present definitive evidence that b1 or the other vitamins in there do anything for cannabis, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't and that such research doesn't exist (at least for other plants). if you pay for the full text of that article, the researchers go into detail with their measurements, results, and interpretation of those results. i'm sure measuring overall mass of the plant was one of the basic metrics they collected. an increase in overall plant vigor and size would be a clear indication that b1 does accelerate plant metabolism, all other variables held constant. but i'm too cheap to pay for the article just to prove a point. it also creates a paper trail pointing back to me since i mentioned that article here. i can infer based on their abstract and my own anecdotal results. maybe you can't, and that's your prerogative.

a lot of biology, chemistry, physics doesn't have clear evidence. take astrophysics. it's all inferred and based on a hundreds of other theories that are just that: theories. the same is true for biochemical reactions and pathways like the krebs cycle. you can't actually pull up a chair and watch the molecules interact. you can measure what you put in, measure what you get out, and make educated inferences. uncertainty is a very real part of science. you can triangulate, however, using multiple approaches to collect the data that you can observe which can give you a higher degree of confidence. what you're looking for in science in convergence, not absolute certainty, which is impossible.

regarding the slime, i can't say for sure, as i'm running aquaponics, which never gets slime or root rot. my guess is that you already had some slime in there and something in the superthrive caused it to bloom. it's not entire impossible, though, that the bottle was contaminated from the get go or that you contaminated it somehow. whatever the cause of the infection was, i think your experience doesn't reflect the typical experience most people have with the same product.

i've always used it in the beginning of a grow when i transplant and i've never had issues, even in straight hydro. this is my first time using it (rather, a similar product, final drive) at the end of a grow.
 

Uncle Pirate

Active Member
Dude, you have so many misconceptions about growing and your plants don't even look all that healthy. A lot of the leaves you have left are even burnt up. You're one plant abusing mofo. Haha. Do you even know anything about fish? You're torturing fish just so you can say you're doing aquaponics. Wtf. If you need to add nutes then the aquaponics (fish) part is COMPLETELY POINTLESS. Go learn or something, stop trying to teach.


https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/475575-aquaponic-wtih-1200ppm-nutes.html



excuse my messy grow room. it's been over a month now with nutes over 1200ppm in my aquaponic system. the fish probably account for about 500ppm with another 700ppm in CalMag, silicate, and CNS17. Also add great white here and there. There's probably a little cloning gel in there too.
 

haole420

Active Member
Lol. Clearly you don't know anything about ap and growing weed. The point of feeding the fish is to feed the nitro bacteria. The bacteria displace root pathogens. If you see no value in ending root disease and eliminating the need for Res changes, then i dont know what to say! More power to you with your Res changes, peroxide, bennies, chilling, and all that other nonsense.

Leaves are a little burnt up, some of it from being too close to the lights. Ran out of vertical clearance. Most of it is from a dry spell while i was on the road. Some Bud tips also got a little bleached from the light, but still plenty of trichs. Regardless, plant still packing on buds and trichs. I could care less about the leaves a week or so from chop.

Also, the tortured fish are dead. These ones are doing just fine.

But i seE that you're more intent in just making ad hominem attacks on me rather than argue anything regarding plants, so at this point I'll stop beating a dead horse.
 

redeyedfrog

Well-Known Member
I even use it as a foliar when I want to give em a boost and the tops go a very fluorescent green.
the new florets plump up and the plant seems to have vigour, of course all of this can be imagined but I don't think so.
i don't use super thrive but I do use a product very similar that makes the same claims, unfortunately I live in Australia
and because they refused to include all ingredients in their declaration it got banned here. Shame, but at least I bought a big bottle. Also if you use it for foliage 1/4 to 1/2 recommended min amount, I've made em go all droopy a few times because my mix was too strong, I'll never learn I can't smoke and feed lol!
 

redeyedfrog

Well-Known Member
well, since you called me out, i'm going to have to throw down. here are pictures from the same grow, my current grow, from a few minutes ago, day 98, week 14, silver haze. that picture you posted, by the way, was from just after i pruned, a little over a month ago.

View attachment 2433566View attachment 2433567View attachment 2433568View attachment 2433569View attachment 2433570View attachment 2433576View attachment 2433573

so, you were saying? something about fan leaves? to answer your question, no, it's not b1 that's keeping my buds so dank, but yeah, they are hella dank and i do believe it is making them more dank. thanks for pointing that out.

what is keeping them dank is the aquaponic system, no doubt, but that's a whole other endless debate.

if you'll note in the last two closeups the orange pistils. those were the pistils from before i added final drive. i still had some white ones filling out into calyxes, but no new pistils. the orange pistils were slowly creeping to the top.

see the fresh, plump white pistils? those are new and are from about mid-cola, not the top. they appeared 3 days after adding about 500cc of final drive to my 100gal system, which is par for the course: i usually see the results of a feed three days later. see the curled up white pistils? those are the ones that are still erupting from the swollen calyxes.

it had been about two weeks since i last fed (CNS17 bloom, koolbloom powder, liquid karma, calmag, epsom salt). i know my plants are sucking down about 100ppm+/day when i had the fan leaves. once i pruned, it went down significantly, then peaked at about 70ppm/day a few weeks ago. i know this because i not only monitor that shit, i log it. nutrient uptake slowed to about 20ppm/day. that, combined with the maturing pistils, swelling calyxes, milky slightly amber trichs all indicated that my plants, which were 13 weeks old at the time, were winding down.

after adding final drive, i got tons of new pistils, slightly plumper than they ever were, more trichs, and fatter calyxes. the photos tell the whole story. nutrient uptake is back up to about 40ppm/day. so you tell me: still think, during the 13th week, more that two weeks after the last feed, plants that are slowing down are just going to pop with new vitality on their own? everything else was constant, especially since it's a fully recirculating aquaponic system. the only intervention was addition of final drive.

final drive worked as advertized, hardening my buds by causing them to split like fractals. each new pistil will mature into another fat, pea-sized calyx.

so, i still have to concede, you are right. god knows what's in that bottle and i am unable to present definitive evidence that b1 or the other vitamins in there do anything for cannabis, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't and that such research doesn't exist (at least for other plants). if you pay for the full text of that article, the researchers go into detail with their measurements, results, and interpretation of those results. i'm sure measuring overall mass of the plant was one of the basic metrics they collected. an increase in overall plant vigor and size would be a clear indication that b1 does accelerate plant metabolism, all other variables held constant. but i'm too cheap to pay for the article just to prove a point. it also creates a paper trail pointing back to me since i mentioned that article here. i can infer based on their abstract and my own anecdotal results. maybe you can't, and that's your prerogative.

a lot of biology, chemistry, physics doesn't have clear evidence. take astrophysics. it's all inferred and based on a hundreds of other theories that are just that: theories. the same is true for biochemical reactions and pathways like the krebs cycle. you can't actually pull up a chair and watch the molecules interact. you can measure what you put in, measure what you get out, and make educated inferences. uncertainty is a very real part of science. you can triangulate, however, using multiple approaches to collect the data that you can observe which can give you a higher degree of confidence. what you're looking for in science in convergence, not absolute certainty, which is impossible.

regarding the slime, i can't say for sure, as i'm running aquaponics, which never gets slime or root rot. my guess is that you already had some slime in there and something in the superthrive caused it to bloom. it's not entire impossible, though, that the bottle was contaminated from the get go or that you contaminated it somehow. whatever the cause of the infection was, i think your experience doesn't reflect the typical experience most people have with the same product.

i've always used it in the beginning of a grow when i transplant and i've never had issues, even in straight hydro. this is my first time using it (rather, a similar product, final drive) at the end of a grow.
Dude yer buds look fine to me , not that you need my validation, the b definitely does something and it's noticeable.
I've always done soil indoor and out and get nice yields so I've never gone down the hydro path.
I find the aeroponics fascinating as it's basically almost the same concept as organic
in soil. I'm not purely organic but more organic than most. I still use the odd nutes,
worm tea, bat guano, seaweed extract, and I amend my own soil , and mostly I just get a buzz
The whole process. Where was I oh yeah stoned haha! Man it's a learning process and I learn more from what doesn't work
than what does. Nice buds dude!
Cheers
 
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