Apache AT600 led vs 1000w HPS Blue Dream Grow

Just for the record there is no blue diode in an F3, that's an F1. It's 16 diodes made up of 8x630, 4x730 and 4 x5000K for blue. And a DS runs at 530, if you want to grow weed with an Illumitex rig you're going to need at least 5 F3 per square foot according to Scooby ar Bponics and you're going to have to run them above spec IMO. Totally not worth the money BTW but when you're DIYing it they do have some value. And they are still the best in the Veg room though you don't win CAnnabis Cups in the veg room

And Red that part about the CCup is a joke, okay?

Greengenes707 said:

I think I will make a new thread soon. Thinking about going to the grow journal section in the name of led's. I'm still up the air if anyone has an opinion on that.

In the mean time here is a little update...

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Less traffic in the Journals...just saying

So, the Apache is the best commercial brand of LED's? That seems to be the consensus. Assuming I needed their 600 watt light to replace 1,000 watt HID, I would need to buy 3 of those. At $2,400 a pop, that just isn't going to happen. I don't care if those lights trimmed my weed for me and cut my lawn ..... no way am I paying that.

So, how do the DIY lights compare price-wise using comparable quality parts? I'm willing to do the research and learn about this, but I'd like to get a ball park estimate before diving in.

The other question is can these panels be used on a light rail? I don't move my lights much (18-24 inches) but I like them moving over head a bit for various reasons.

Just a quick question GG, is there a filter or camera setting that you use to get your cob light pics to show as white? Mine looks white to my eyes but the camera only takes red pics from all angles, not a problem really since it's mostly reds in the panel, just wondering

PSUAGRO. said:

Shocking......................So all that Surexi module hype== individual diode reflectors, doesn't live up in reality.
Illumi GUARANTEE a 10% crop bump/15% faster growth rates than a 1000w hid with their DS520(edit , checked their site, no more guarantees ).........Your probably right at them targeting micro greens instead of mj with these claims.
Will see what the new Aurora(F3a) panel will bring to the table......Don't like the design tbh, prefer bars.
What do you think is causing these # discrepancies with growers house?? sales??lol

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I know they used to guarantee it. They even came up to me/us at the max yield to brag about it. And I called them out on it being lettuce...they walked away shortly after deflecting my statement.
As for growers house...IDK. I don't want to be starting shit...but I used 3 different PAR meters(apogee, apogee for LED's, and a brand new Li-core) and the specroradiometer all of them showing significantly less than GH is reporting. Just reporting why I saw with my own eyes. All the other brands I have been able to double check GH's readings have been correct, so I really wonder what their deal with the DS is.
Nate said to me specifically at the SF show last year that illumitex has many billions for marketing...and that is how they got to where they are. I don't want to totally say what I think...but it's spelled out here for any one to infer...I think the DS is BS.

puffenuff said:

Bummer about the bongs dude. For me, there's nothing like a taking a fat rip from a clean bong.
Didnt see it mentioned, but were you able to get some readings of the new 600 with the new brighter chips? Noticed it draws slightly less watts so wondering what kind of output increase those new chips push out in terms of par numbers.

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I asked him to dial it down for me. They come dialed up standard. The readings are very close in my setup now...nowhere on the canopy below 500µmols pretty much. And my new light is the original chips...

Here is the 411 on the different/new chips. I was wrong in the past.
Original at200/600 chips are/were the 119a
The new chips that will be making their way into lamps soon are the 119b.
Old were the A's...news are the B's.
So if the B's are truly that much better than the A's...I can't wait to see what the new lights produce.

Nichia 119/219- Same chips but different solder pad layouts...the 219 is identical to cree for easy implementation. But since AT has always been nichia...they use the original nichia pad layout on their boards, which are on the 119's. SO I apologize for saying they were the 219 in the past. Aparently they "tested" them... no need to change their board design for no difference in performance.

I can't find a A spec sheet...but they are basically the same chips as the B's, just improving a little over time.
Here is the specs on the 119B...
http://www.nichia.com/specification/products/led/NVSW119B-E.pdf

Would I personally wait...Yes...is it going to be night and day...No.

FranJan said:

Just for the record there is no blue diode in an F3, that's an F1. It's 16 diodes made up of 8x630, 4x730 and 4 x5000K for blue. And a DS runs at 530, if you want to grow weed with an Illumitex rig you're going to need at least 5 F3 per square foot according to Scooby ar Bponics and you're going to have to run them above spec IMO. Totally not worth the money BTW but when you're DIYing it they do have some value. And they are still the best in the Veg room though you don't win CAnnabis Cups in the veg room
And Red that part about the CCup is a joke, okay?

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I saw a neo300 grow on the farm...I think around .75g/w. I think they are solid lights for certain people...but they are not top dog imo.

SOMEBEECH said:

Less traffic in the Journals...just saying

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That isn't what I am going for...LED section it is...I never wanted to leave anyways.

st0wandgrow said:

So, the Apache is the best commercial brand of LED's? That seems to be the consensus. Assuming I needed their 600 watt light to replace 1,000 watt HID, I would need to buy 3 of those. At $2,400 a pop, that just isn't going to happen. I don't care if those lights trimmed my weed for me and cut my lawn ..... no way am I paying that.
So, how do the DIY lights compare price-wise using comparable quality parts? I'm willing to do the research and learn about this, but I'd like to get a ball park estimate before diving in.
The other question is can these panels be used on a light rail? I don't move my lights much (18-24 inches) but I like them moving over head a bit for various reasons.

Click to expand...

That is the consensus...and also my opinion.
They are pricey but actually the same if not a few pennies cheaper than the other top brands $/watt.
A DIY COB system of 600-700w is going to run ~$1200-$1400. The AT600 can be gotten for $1999 with my code. And if you are buying multiple you definitely have ammo to haggle with. It is till expensive, don't get me wrong...but it is not a different category of price like people think.
Other than Apache...DIY is the only thing I can say with some confidence will compete on this level with hps. But it too is not cheap...just less expensive...and then takes some work/building. I loved the work...but others just want to plug and play so things like no assembly or work might be worth difference to some.

leds cannot compete with a hps,they just cant.mr tight,medigrower tried leds and have gone back to hps.sub wasnt impressed with leds neither.there inferior,but cost a whole lot more.

Greengenes707 said:

I know they used to guarantee it. They even came up to me/us at the max yield to brag about it. And I called them out on it being lettuce...they walked away shortly after deflecting my statement.
As for growers house...IDK. I don't want to be starting shit...but I used 3 different PAR meters(apogee, apogee for LED's, and a brand new Li-core) and the specroradiometer all of them showing significantly less than GH is reporting. Just reporting why I saw with my own eyes. All the other brands I have been able to double check GH's readings have been correct, so I really wonder what their deal with the DS is.
Nate said to me specifically at the SF show last year that illumitex has many billions for marketing...and that is how they got to where they are. I don't want to totally say what I think...but it's spelled out here for any one to infer...I think the DS is BS.


I asked him to dial it down for me. They come dialed up standard. The readings are very close in my setup now...nowhere on the canopy below 500µmols pretty much. And my new light is the original chips...

Here is the 411 on the different/new chips. I was wrong in the past.
Original at200/600 chips are/were the top bin 119a
The new chips that will be making their way into lamps soon are the top bin 119b.
Old were the A's...news are the B's.
So if the B's are truly that much better than the A's...I can't wait to see what the new lights produce.

Nichia 119/219- Same chips but different solder pad layouts...the 219 is identical to cree for easy implementation. But since AT has always been nichia...so they use the original nichia pad layout on their boards, which are on the 119's. SO I apologize for saying they were the 219 in the past. Aparently they "tested them... no need to change their board design for no difference in performance.

I can't find a A spec sheet...but they are basically the same chips as the B's, just improving a little over time.
Here is the specs on the 119B...
http://www.nichia.com/specification/products/led/NVSW119B-E.pdf

Would I personally wait...Yes...is it going to be night and day...No.


I saw a neo300 grow on the farm...I think around .75g/w. I think they are solid lights for certain people...but they are not top dog imo.
View attachment 3209477 View attachment 3209478

That isn't what I am going for...LED section it is...I never wanted to leave anyways.


That is the consensus...and also my opinion.
They are pricey but actually the same if not a few pennies cheaper than the other top brands $/watt.
A DIY COB system of 600-700w is going to run ~$1200-$1400. The AT600 can be gotten for $1999 with my code. And if you are buying multiple you definitely have ammo to haggle with. It is till expensive, don't get me wrong...but it is not a different category of price like people think.
DIY is the only thing I can say with some confidence will compete on this level with hps. But it too is not cheap...just less expensive...and then takes some work/building. I loved the work...but others just want to plug and play so things like no assembly or work might be worth difference to some.

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Thanks for the response. When you say "DIY is the only thing I can say with some confidence will compete on this level with hps"...... are you saying that a 600 watt apache is an inferior product to a 1,000 watt HPS?

resinousflowers420 said:

leds cannot compete with a hps,they just cant.mr tight,medigrower tried leds and have gone back to hps.sub wasnt impressed with leds neither.there inferior,but cost a whole lot more.

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I follow them both of them. Both uses crap led's...sorry but true. Rebranded chinese crap...ask them what they think of my led other than the price? I have a channel too if you want to look what a real quality LED can do...Greengenes Garden

Only the best can compete right now. In a few years the cheapo's will be where the best are now and then all will have LED's.

EDIT:
Just saw the Sub comment too...also rebranded chinese lights....crap...scams...saying they use cree's then talking that off shortly after some people sent inquiring emails to cree since lush wan't telling the truth. I also ran the Kushington farms grower off the farm because all his lies he couldn't give straight of even slightly true anwers.
This ain't my first rodeo with led's. I'm pretty fucking well rounded on all that is out in led's and any lighting for that matter.
Brands mean nothing...any company can hide/lie...but if you know the specs and components you can call out and predict any panels performance capabilities very accurately.

Keep trying to dismiss my results... fucking haters
Or did you even actual ever look at what the led you came here to bash can do???
Elbows, elbow, elbows...not <200g like some cheap chinese shit you may have watched.

st0wandgrow said:

Thanks for the response. When you say "DIY is the only thing I can say with some confidence will compete on this level with hps"...... are you saying that a 600 watt apache is an inferior product to a 1,000 watt HPS?

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NO...apache are the best out in pre-mades. And till my DIY flowering is done I can't say which is actually the best. I know 100% what the at600 will do in my hands...now time to see what my skills do with a COB light.
So let me rephrase that...
Other than APACHE....DIY is the other thing I really recommend.
I'll edit the frost post to make that clear.

yeah leds don't work. thats old tech. its all about growing with magnetized electron and photon laser beams now. C'mon get with the times

Yep Mr tight used the huge Groblu Apollo LED, about 400W of crappy mystery LED dissipation. Creates almost twice as much heat as HPS.

GG is right, the Apache is not in a separate price category, about $3/W (dissipation), same price as the Area 51. The Onyx is cheaper ($2.15/W) and Mike gave us the actual bin numbers which is awesome, they are running hard (2A) to make them cheap rather than crank up the efficiency. But if Apache really did source the top bins you could look at that as a higher price category than the Onyx by running top bins soft enough to increase the efficiency above the rest of the pack. It is always nice to have options.

Greengenes707 said:

Specroradiometer reading of my COB drone...

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Awesome data thanks GG!

So does the AT600 you got have newer Nichias? Is the 655W the dissipation power or power draw?

Greengenes707 said:

Once it pop's the fun don't stop...
Inda-gro420
View attachment 3208764
Inda-gro 420 w/PONTOON
View attachment 3208765

660nm bump.

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did you get any of these spectrum charts with numbers?

nice to finally see some inda gro spd's. I've asked darryl and growers house so many times to produce an spd..

SupraSPL said:

The Onyx is cheaper ($2.15/W) and Mike gave us the actual bin numbers which is awesome, they are running hard (2A) to make them cheap rather than crank up the efficiency.

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I could be wrong, but didn't they give us bin numbers then say that they cant always get those due to availablility.

captainmorgan said:

Onyx Info

I talked to Mike to check the bin and asked him about their parts and assembly,here's what he said.

"The current unit you have is from group T4, bin 7C1 so right at 3,000K."

"When we order LEDs from CREE they don't allow us to specify an exact bin, unless the distributor happens to have that bin on hand. We can only order by order code, which encompasses a lot of bins. What we usually do is ask a lot of distributors to find who has the LEDs available and which bins they have, we try to keep it as close to 2700K as possible but usually it's closer to 3000K. I don't think we've gone over 3,000K yet and our hope is that we don't have to, but you do get slight increases in output the higher in K you go (that's why our veg unit runs cooler and is brighter both in terms of PAR and lumens since it's a ~6,500K light).

The unit you received was assembled by us here in California. However, we do also assemble in China. The reason for the two locations is that it depends on the timing of the order and how badly we need them, if we have plenty of stock and aren't in a rush we'll have them done in China. If we are running low on stock we get all the parts and assemble them here (only requires screws so assembly isn't terribly difficult). Most of the parts come from Asia (Taiwan, China, Malaysia)."

Here's a couple pics,including one with the back cover off.

This lights heatsink gets quite warm but Mike assures me that it's thermally protected and it will hold up for many years under these temps. He said you can run it with the cover off if you want and point a fan at it or you could add a couple computer type fans to it if you want to cool it more but it's fine the way it comes.

I'm going to run mine with the back cover off and may point a fan at it.

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SupraSPL said:

Awesome data thanks GG!
So does the AT600 you got have newer Nichias? Is the 655W the dissipation power or power draw?

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It's not the newest chips in my new at600. It has the A's...same as my other 600.
655w is the power drawn from the wall...I requested it to draw around that.

epicfail said:

I could be wrong, but didn't they give us bin numbers then say that they cant always get those due to availablility.

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The point Mike was trying to make was,if available they get a higher bin 2700k. If not they get a similar bin in a different color range,but keep them between 2700k and 3000k. Seems they would rather keep the efficiency at a certain level with a slight difference in color range.

captainmorgan said:

The point Mike was trying to make was,if available they get a higher bin 2700k. If not they get a similar bin in a different color range,but keep them between 2700k and 3000k. Seems they would rather keep the efficiency at a certain level with a slight difference in color range.

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"We can only order by order code, which encompasses a lot of bins."

I assume they don't throw those lower bin chips away, I'm just pointing out that we don't actually know the bins of the ONYX or the Apache for that matter. The only commercial panels (that mater) we really know the bins of are the RW-150/75 (Cree XTE Cool White XTEAWT-00-0000-000000H50 R5 + Cree XPE Red XPERED-L1-0000-00801 P3) and XGS-190 (Cree XTE Warm White 3750k XTEAWT-02-0000-00000BFF6) which is clearly listed on their site.

DIY for the win! for some of us its RnDiY.

I would assume that if Onyx cant order by bin then A51 would be in the same boat...

spazatak said:

I would assume that if Onyx cant order by bin then A51 would be in the same boat...

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It seems he doesn't order from Cree directly..

Beefbisquit said:

Sweeet, are these the LED's in the new panel??

http://ca.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Cree-Inc/XTEAWT-02-0000-00000BFF6/?qs=ygRr/tkhtetRvt2BXefEAA==

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Eraserhead said:

Yes they are, except I got mine from Digikey.

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Greengenes707 said:

I also got to play with a buddies new neo sol DS...I will get a report once he gets a run under it. I was unimpressed for what they claim.

R/B is misleading to the eye...seems like it covers and is intense...meter says differently.

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The neosol NS (300 watt) is a better deal than the DS. two of these slightly cheaper and more watts at the plug, and will cover a 4x4 better than one of the DS. I finally broke down in frustration with the cheap chinese leds and picked up one of the neosol NS, first grow with Golden Tiger is going up next week.