Any gnostics/hermetists/alchemists around?

CannaOnerStar

Well-Known Member
And for those that dont know, but are interested:


A Brief Summary of Gnosticism



GNOSTICISM IS THE TEACHING based on Gnosis, the knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of interior, intuitive means. Although Gnosticism thus rests on personal religious experience, it is a mistake to assume all such experience results in Gnostic recognitions. It is nearer the truth to say that Gnosticism expresses a specific religious experience, an experience that does not lend itself to the language of theology or philosophy, but which is instead closely affinitized to, and expresses itself through, the medium of myth. Indeed, one finds that most Gnostic scriptures take the forms of myths. The term “myth” should not here be taken to mean “stories that are not true”, but rather, that the truths embodied in these myths are of a different order from the dogmas of theology or the statements of philosophy.

In the following summary, we will attempt to encapsulate in prose what the Gnostic myths express in their distinctively poetic and imaginative language.

The Cosmos
All religious traditions acknowledge that the world is imperfect. Where they differ is in the explanations which they offer to account for this imperfection and in what they suggest might be done about it. Gnostics have their own -- perhaps quite startling -- view of these matters: they hold that the world is flawed because it was created in a flawed manner.

Like Buddhism, Gnosticism begins with the fundamental recognition that earthly life is filled with suffering. In order to nourish themselves, all forms of life consume each other, thereby visiting pain, fear, and death upon one another (even herbivorous animals live by destroying the life of plants). In addition, so-called natural catastrophes -- earthquakes, floods, fires, drought, volcanic eruptions -- bring further suffering and death in their wake. Human beings, with their complex physiology and psychology, are aware not only of these painful features of earthly existence. They also suffer from the frequent recognition that they are strangers living in a world that is flawed and absurd.

Many religions advocate that humans are to be blamed for the imperfections of the world. Supporting this view, they interpret the Genesis myth as declaring that transgressions committed by the first human pair brought about a “fall” of creation resulting in the present corrupt state of the world. Gnostics respond that this interpretation of the myth is false. The blame for the world’s failings lies not with humans, but with the creator. Since -- especially in the monotheistic religions -- the creator is God, this Gnostic position appears blasphemous, and is often viewed with dismay even by non-believers.

Ways of evading the recognition of the flawed creation and its flawed creator have been devised over and over, but none of these arguments have impressed Gnostics. The ancient Greeks, especially the Platonists, advised people to look to the harmony of the universe, so that by venerating its grandeur they might forget their immediate afflictions. But since this harmony still contains the cruel flaws, forlornness and alienation of existence, this advice is considered of little value by Gnostics. Nor is the Eastern idea of Karma regarded by Gnostics as an adequate explanation of creation’s imperfection and suffering. Karma at best can only explain how the chain of suffering and imperfection works. It does not inform us in the first place why such a sorrowful and malign system should exist.

Once the initial shock of the “unusual” or “blasphemous” nature of the Gnostic explanation for suffering and imperfection of the world wears off, one may begin to recognize that it is in fact the most sensible of all explanations. To appreciate it fully, however, a familiarity with the Gnostic conception of the Godhead is required, both in its original essence as the True God and in its debased manifestation as the false or creator God.

Deity
The Gnostic God concept is more subtle than that of most religions. In its way, it unites and reconciles the recognitions of Monotheism and Polytheism, as well as of Theism, Deism and Pantheism.

William Blake

In the Gnostic view, there is a true, ultimate and transcendent God, who is beyond all created universes and who never created anything in the sense in which the word “create” is ordinarily understood. While this True God did not fashion or create anything, He (or, It) “emanated” or brought forth from within Himself the substance of all there is in all the worlds, visible and invisible. In a certain sense, it may therefore be true to say that all is God, for all consists of the substance of God. By the same token, it must also be recognized that many portions of the original divine essence have been projected so far from their source that they underwent unwholesome changes in the process. To worship the cosmos, or nature, or embodied creatures is thus tantamount to worshipping alienated and corrupt portions of the emanated divine essence.

The basic Gnostic myth has many variations, but all of these refer to Aeons, intermediate deific beings who exist between the ultimate, True God and ourselves. They, together with the True God, comprise the realm of Fullness (Pleroma) wherein the potency of divinity operates fully. The Fullness stands in contrast to our existential state, which in comparison may be called emptiness.

One of the aeonial beings who bears the name Sophia (“Wisdom”) is of great importance to the Gnostic world view. In the course of her journeyings, Sophia came to emanate from her own being a flawed consciousness, a being who became the creator of the material and psychic cosmos, all of which he created in the image of his own flaw. This being, unaware of his origins, imagined himself to be the ultimate and absolute God. Since he took the already existing divine essence and fashioned it into various forms, he is also called the Demiurgos or “half-maker” There is an authentic half, a true deific component within creation, but it is not recognized by the half-maker and by his cosmic minions, the Archons or “rulers”.
 

CannaOnerStar

Well-Known Member
The Human Being
Human nature mirrors the duality found in the world: in part it was made by the false creator God and in part it consists of the light of the True God. Humankind contains a perishable physical and psychic component, as well as a spiritual component which is a fragment of the divine essence. This latter part is often symbolically referred to as the “divine spark”. The recognition of this dual nature of the world and of the human being has earned the Gnostic tradition the epithet of “dualist”.

Humans are generally ignorant of the divine spark resident within them. This ignorance is fostered in human nature by the influence of the false creator and his Archons, who together are intent upon keeping men and women ignorant of their true nature and destiny. Anything that causes us to remain attached to earthly things serves to keep us in enslavement to these lower cosmic rulers. Death releases the divine spark from its lowly prison, but if there has not been a substantial work of Gnosis undertaken by the soul prior to death, it becomes likely that the divine spark will be hurled back into, and then re-embodied within, the pangs and slavery of the physical world.

Not all humans are spiritual (pneumatics) and thus ready for Gnosis and liberation. Some are earthbound and materialistic beings (hyletics), who recognize only the physical reality. Others live largely in their psyche (psychics). Such people usually mistake the Demiurge for the True God and have little or no awareness of the spiritual world beyond matter and mind.

In the course of history, humans progress from materialistic sensate slavery, by way of ethical religiosity, to spiritual freedom and liberating Gnosis. As the scholar G. Quispel wrote: “The world-spirit in exile must go through the Inferno of matter and the Purgatory of morals to arrive at the spiritual Paradise.” This kind of evolution of consciousness was envisioned by the Gnostics, long before the concept of evolution was known.

Salvation
Evolutionary forces alone are insufficient, however, to bring about spiritual freedom. Humans are caught in a predicament consisting of physical existence combined with ignorance of their true origins, their essential nature and their ultimate destiny. To be liberated from this predicament, human beings require help, although they must also contribute their own efforts.

From earliest times Messengers of the Light have come forth from the True God in order to assist humans in their quest for Gnosis. Only a few of these salvific figures are mentioned in Gnostic scripture; some of the most important are Seth (the third Son of Adam), Jesus, and the Prophet Mani. The majority of Gnostics always looked to Jesus as the principal savior figure (the Soter).

Gnostics do not look to salvation from sin (original or other), but rather from the ignorance of which sin is a consequence. Ignorance -- whereby is meant ignorance of spiritual realities -- is dispelled only by Gnosis, and the decisive revelation of Gnosis is brought by the Messengers of Light, especially by Christ, the Logos of the True God. It is not by His suffering and death but by His life of teaching and His establishing of mysteries that Christ has performed His work of salvation.

The Gnostic concept of salvation, like other Gnostic concepts, is a subtle one. On the one hand, Gnostic salvation may easily be mistaken for an unmediated individual experience, a sort of spiritual do-it-yourself project. Gnostics hold that the potential for Gnosis, and thus, of salvation is present in every man and woman, and that salvation is not vicarious but individual. At the same time, they also acknowledge that Gnosis and salvation can be, indeed must be, stimulated and facilitated in order to effectively arise within consciousness. This stimulation is supplied by Messengers of Light who, in addition to their teachings, establish salvific mysteries (sacraments) which can be administered by apostles of the Messengers and their successors.

One needs also remember that knowledge of our true nature -- as well as other associated realizations -- are withheld from us by our very condition of earthly existence. The True God of transcendence is unknown in this world, in fact He is often called the Unknown Father. It is thus obvious that revelation from on High is needed to bring about salvation. The indwelling spark must be awakened from its terrestrial slumber by the saving knowledge that comes “from without”.


Conduct
If the words “ethics” or “morality” are taken to mean a system of rules, then Gnosticism is opposed to them both. Such systems usually originate with the Demiurge and are covertly designed to serve his purposes. If, on the other hand, morality is said to consist of an inner integrity arising from the illumination of the indwelling spark, then the Gnostic will embrace this spiritually informed existential ethic as ideal.

To the Gnostic, commandments and rules are not salvific; they are not substantially conducive to salvation. Rules of conduct may serve numerous ends, including the structuring of an ordered and peaceful society, and the maintenance of harmonious relations within social groups. Rules, however, are not relevant to salvation; that is brought about only by Gnosis. Morality therefore needs to be viewed primarily in temporal and secular terms; it is ever subject to changes and modifications in accordance with the spiritual development of the individual.

As noted in the discussion above, “hyletic materialists” usually have little interest in morality, while “psychic disciplinarians” often grant to it a great importance. In contrast, “Pneumatic spiritual” persons are generally more concerned with other, higher matters. Different historical periods also require variant attitudes regarding human conduct. Thus both the Manichaean and Cathar Gnostic movements, which functioned in times where purity of conduct was regarded as an issue of high import, responded in kind. The present period of Western culture perhaps resembles in more ways that of second and third century Alexandria. It seems therefore appropriate that Gnostics in our age adopt the attitudes of classical Alexandrian Gnosticism, wherein matters of conduct were largely left to the insight of the individual.

Gnosticism embraces numerous general attitudes toward life: it encourages non-attachment and non-conformity to the world, a “being in the world, but not of the world”; a lack of egotism; and a respect for the freedom and dignity of other beings. Nonetheless, it appertains to the intuition and wisdom of every individual “Gnostic” to distill from these principles individual guidelines for their personal application.
 

CannaOnerStar

Well-Known Member
Destiny
When Confucius was asked about death, he replied: “Why do you ask me about death when you do not know how to live?” This answer might easily have been given by a Gnostic. To a similar question posed in the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas, Jesus answered that human beings must come by Gnosis to know the ineffable, divine reality from whence they have originated, and whither they will return. This transcendental knowledge must come to them while they are still embodied on earth.

Death does not automatically bring about liberation from bondage in the realms of the Demiurge. Those who have not attained to a liberating Gnosis while they were in embodiment may become trapped in existence once more. It is quite likely that this might occur by way of the cycle of rebirths. Gnosticism does not emphasize the doctrine of reincarnation prominently, but it is implicitly understood in most Gnostic teachings that those who have not made effective contact with their transcendental origins while they were in embodiment would have to return into the sorrowful condition of earthly life.

In regard to salvation, or the fate of the spirit and soul after death, one needs to be aware that help is available. Valentinus, the greatest of Gnostic teachers, taught that Christ and Sophia await the spiritual man -- the pneumatic Gnostic -- at the entrance of the Pleroma, and help him to enter the bridechamber of final reunion. Ptolemaeus, disciple of Valentinus, taught that even those not of pneumatic status, the psychics, could be redeemed and live in a heavenworld at the entrance of the Pleroma. In the fullness of time, every spiritual being will receive Gnosis and will be united with its higher Self -- the angelic Twin -- thus becoming qualified to enter the Pleroma. None of this is possible, however, without earnest striving for Gnosis.

Gnosis and Psyche: The Depth Psychological Connection
Throughout the twentieth Century the new scientific discipline of depth psychology has gained much prominence. Among the depth psychologists who have shown a pronounced and informed interest in Gnosticism, a place of signal distinction belongs to C. G. Jung. Jung was instrumental in calling attention to the Nag Hammadi library of Gnostic writings in the 1950's because he perceived the outstanding psychological relevance of Gnostic insights.

Carl Gustav Jung, 1875 - 1961
The noted scholar of Gnosticism, G. Filoramo, wrote: "Jung's reflections had long been immersed in the thought of the ancient Gnostics to such an extent that he considered them the virtual discoverers of 'depth psychology' . . . ancient Gnosis, albeit in its form of universal religion, in a certain sense prefigured, and at the same time helped to clarify, the nature of Jungian spiritual therapy." In the light of such recognitions one may ask: "Is Gnosticism a religion or a psychology?" The answer is that it may very-well be both. Most mythologems found in Gnostic scriptures possess psychological relevance and applicability. For instance the blind and arrogant creator-demiurge bears a close resemblance to the alienated human ego that has lost contact with the ontological Self. Also, the myth of Sophia resembles closely the story of the human psyche that loses its connection with the collective unconscious and needs to be rescued by the Self. Analogies of this sort exist in great profusion.

Many esoteric teachings have proclaimed, "As it is above, so it is below." Our psychological nature (the microcosm) mirrors metaphysical nature (the macrocosm), thus Gnosticism may possess both a psychological and a religious authenticity. Gnostic psychology and Gnostic religion need not be exclusive of one another but may complement each other within an implicit order of wholeness. Gnostics have always held that divinity is immanent within the human spirit, although it is not limited to it. The convergence of Gnostic religious teaching with psychological insight is thus quite understandable in terms of time-honored Gnostic principles.

Conclusion
Some writers make a distinction between “Gnosis” and “Gnosticism”. Such distinctions are both helpful and misleading. Gnosis is undoubtedly an experience based not in concepts and precepts, but in the sensibility of the heart. Gnosticism, on the other hand, is the world-view based on the experience of Gnosis. For this reason, in languages other than English, the word Gnosis is often used to denote both the experience and the world view (die Gnosis in German, la Gnose in French).

In a sense, there is no Gnosis without Gnosticism, for the experience of Gnosis inevitably calls forth a world view wherein it finds its place. The Gnostic world view is experiential, it is based on a certain kind of spiritual experience of Gnosis. Therefore, it will not do to omit, or to dilute, various parts of the Gnostic world view, for were one to do this, the world view would no longer conform to experience.

Theology has been called an intellectual wrapping around the spiritual kernel of a religion. If this is true, then it is also true that most religions are being strangled and stifled by their wrappings. Gnosticism does not run this danger, because its world view is stated in myth rather than in theology. Myths, including the Gnostic myths, may be interpreted in diverse ways. Transcendence, numinosity, as well as psychological archetypes along with other elements, play a role in such interpretation. Still, such mythic statements tell of profound truths that will not be denied.

Gnosticism can bring us such truths with a high authority, for it speaks with the voice of the highest part of the human -- the spirit. Of this spirit, it has been said, “it bloweth where it listeth”. This then is the reason why the Gnostic world view could not be extirpated in spite of many centuries of persecution.

The Gnostic world view has always been timely, for it always responded best to the “knowledge of the heart” that is true Gnosis. Yet today, its timeliness is increasing, for the end of the second millennium has seen the radical deterioration of many ideologies which evaded the great questions and answers addressed by Gnosticism. The clarity, frankness, and authenticity of the Gnostic answer to the questions of the human predicament cannot fail to impress and (in time) to convince. If your reactions to this summary have been of a similarly positive order, then perhaps you are a Gnostic yourself!

+ Stephan A. Hoeller (Tau Stephanus, Gnostic Bishop)


 

DrKiz

Well-Known Member
@CannaOnerStar

WOW WOW WOW! You blasphemous bastard! Amazing work! Thank you for taking the time to write this out. It's going to take me some time to unpack this and compress all the information.

I must admit my ignorance, how have I made it this many years without stumbling into this???

Gnosticism begins with the fundamental recognition that earthly life is filled with suffering. In order to nourish themselves, all forms of life consume each other, thereby visiting pain, fear, and death upon one another...

Human beings, with their complex physiology and psychology, are aware not only of these painful features of earthly existence. They also suffer from the frequent recognition that they are strangers living in a world that is flawed and absurd.

Once the initial shock of the “unusual” or “blasphemous” nature of the Gnostic explanation for suffering and imperfection of the world wears off, one may begin to recognize that it is in fact the most sensible of all explanations.
You have me hooked. I feel this.

In the Gnostic view, there is a true, ultimate and transcendent God, who is beyond all created universes and who never created anything in the sense in which the word “create” is ordinarily understood. While this True God did not fashion or create anything, He (or, It) “emanated” or brought forth from within Himself the substance of all there is in all the worlds, visible and invisible....
Interesting, I'm going to have to read this explanation a few more times but I get the essence. It helps reconcile a few concerns a have with scripture.

Humans are generally ignorant of the divine spark resident within them. This ignorance is fostered in human nature by the influence of the false creator and his Archons, who together are intent upon keeping men and women ignorant of their true nature and destiny. Anything that causes us to remain attached to earthly things serves to keep us in enslavement to these lower cosmic rulers.
Yes! I believe this. Attachment to earthly things, objects and idols has always felt to me to be a unhealthy and undesirable.

Not all humans are spiritual (pneumatics) and thus ready for Gnosis and liberation. Some are earthbound and materialistic beings (hyletics), who recognize only the physical reality. Others live largely in their psyche (psychics). Such people usually mistake the Demiurge for the True God and have little or no awareness of the spiritual world beyond matter and mind.

In the course of history, humans progress from materialistic sensate slavery, by way of ethical religiosity, to spiritual freedom and liberating Gnosis.
This part of Gnosticism I've read before, not knowing the source. It's been tucked into the back of my mind for sometime. Maybe it's narcissism/ego (Because who's going to admit that they are a hyletic... although a hyletic probably wouldn't have enough introspection to even ask themselves the question and ponder the answer), but reading this long ago... "Hey, I'm a pneumatic". I've been ignorant of the rest of the information, and live largely in my psyche so I could be called a psychic... but the things you are saying vibrate with me and seem to be what I've felt intuitively all along.. so it's not confirmation bias to call myself a "pneumatic". IDK, maybe that's just my ego wanting to classify myself. I can only assume, but no matter, I am what I am. Recognizing patterns in people I can see how they would fit into one of these categories.

Does Gnostic theory say that someone can move between these, or are you born into one of these categories? Maybe this question is answered further down, but I'd like to believe that there can be some movement for a seeker of truth that is capable of introspection and self reflection. Or maybe that person was always what they were, it was just a journey to finally realize and become it?

Ok, reading further this is answered: " In the course of history, humans progress from materialistic sensate slavery, by way of ethical religiosity, to spiritual freedom and liberating Gnosis.... This kind of evolution of consciousness was envisioned by the Gnostics, long before the concept of evolution was known. "

And an explanation for Prophets and great minds: "From earliest times Messengers of the Light have come forth from the True God in order to assist humans in their quest for Gnosis. Only a few of these salvific figures are mentioned in Gnostic scripture; some of the most important are Seth (the third Son of Adam), Jesus, and the Prophet Mani. The majority of Gnostics always looked to Jesus as the principal savior figure (the Soter). "

This is really comforting as it helps reconcile my study of traditional religion into the equation. Not that I should be comforted, because truth is what it is whether it is comfortable or not.

This struck home:

One needs also remember that knowledge of our true nature -- as well as other associated realizations -- are withheld from us by our very condition of earthly existence.
This has a good feel to it, makes sense:

If the words “ethics” or “morality” are taken to mean a system of rules.... covertly serve his purpose.
If, on the other hand, morality is said to consist of an inner integrity arising from the illumination of the indwelling spark, then the Gnostic will embrace this spiritually informed existential ethic as ideal.
....commandments and rules are not salvific; they are not substantially conducive to salvation. Rules of conduct may serve numerous ends, including the structuring of an ordered and peaceful society, and the maintenance of harmonious relations within social groups. ...
..Morality therefore needs to be viewed primarily in temporal and secular terms; it is ever subject to changes and modifications in accordance with the spiritual development of the individual.

Unpacking this:
"As noted in the discussion above, “hyletic materialists” usually have little interest in morality, while “psychic disciplinarians” often grant to it a great importance. In contrast, “Pneumatic spiritual” persons are generally more concerned with other, higher matters. "

I consider myself a moral person, but morality can be subjective can it not depending on who's perspective? I may be moral to some, immoral to another depending on their belief system. Therefore morality isn't really a thing to be hung up on, as long as I feel good about what I am doing and the actions of others aren't affecting me in a negative way.

AND there it is: Different historical periods also require variant attitudes regarding human conduct.

And how can I not agree with this as this is my sentiment:

Gnosticism embraces numerous general attitudes toward life: it encourages non-attachment and non-conformity to the world, a “being in the world, but not of the world”; a lack of egotism; and a respect for the freedom and dignity of other beings. Nonetheless, it appertains to the intuition and wisdom of every individual “Gnostic” to distill from these principles individual guidelines for their personal application.
Thank you very much for that. It was a well written read. I need to get back to my work, I am going to enjoy reading through the rest and exploring this concept further.

It definitely feels truthful and congruent and aligns with my beliefs.

Thank you again!
 

Medskunk

Well-Known Member
@CannaOnerStar

WOW WOW WOW! You blasphemous bastard! Amazing work! Thank you for taking the time to write this out. It's going to take me some time to unpack this and compress all the information.

I must admit my ignorance, how have I made it this many years without stumbling into this???



You have me hooked. I feel this.



Interesting, I'm going to have to read this explanation a few more times but I get the essence. It helps reconcile a few concerns a have with scripture.



Yes! I believe this. Attachment to earthly things, objects and idols has always felt to me to be a unhealthy and undesirable.



This part of Gnosticism I've read before, not knowing the source. It's been tucked into the back of my mind for sometime. Maybe it's narcissism/ego (Because who's going to admit that they are a hyletic... although a hyletic probably wouldn't have enough introspection to even ask themselves the question and ponder the answer), but reading this long ago... "Hey, I'm a pneumatic". I've been ignorant of the rest of the information, and live largely in my psyche so I could be called a psychic... but the things you are saying vibrate with me and seem to be what I've felt intuitively all along.. so it's not confirmation bias to call myself a "pneumatic". IDK, maybe that's just my ego wanting to classify myself. I can only assume, but no matter, I am what I am. Recognizing patterns in people I can see how they would fit into one of these categories.

Does Gnostic theory say that someone can move between these, or are you born into one of these categories? Maybe this question is answered further down, but I'd like to believe that there can be some movement for a seeker of truth that is capable of introspection and self reflection. Or maybe that person was always what they were, it was just a journey to finally realize and become it?

Ok, reading further this is answered: " In the course of history, humans progress from materialistic sensate slavery, by way of ethical religiosity, to spiritual freedom and liberating Gnosis.... This kind of evolution of consciousness was envisioned by the Gnostics, long before the concept of evolution was known. "

And an explanation for Prophets and great minds: "From earliest times Messengers of the Light have come forth from the True God in order to assist humans in their quest for Gnosis. Only a few of these salvific figures are mentioned in Gnostic scripture; some of the most important are Seth (the third Son of Adam), Jesus, and the Prophet Mani. The majority of Gnostics always looked to Jesus as the principal savior figure (the Soter). "

This is really comforting as it helps reconcile my study of traditional religion into the equation. Not that I should be comforted, because truth is what it is whether it is comfortable or not.

This struck home:



This has a good feel to it, makes sense:




Unpacking this:
"As noted in the discussion above, “hyletic materialists” usually have little interest in morality, while “psychic disciplinarians” often grant to it a great importance. In contrast, “Pneumatic spiritual” persons are generally more concerned with other, higher matters. "

I consider myself a moral person, but morality can be subjective can it not depending on who's perspective? I may be moral to some, immoral to another depending on their belief system. Therefore morality isn't really a thing to be hung up on, as long as I feel good about what I am doing and the actions of others aren't affecting me in a negative way.

AND there it is: Different historical periods also require variant attitudes regarding human conduct.

And how can I not agree with this as this is my sentiment:



Thank you very much for that. It was a well written read. I need to get back to my work, I am going to enjoy reading through the rest and exploring this concept further.

It definitely feels truthful and congruent and aligns with my beliefs.

Thank you again!

Medskunk going down the right flank lol

A funny thing with this is that you dont really HAVE TO remember everything you read about it by heart. Because the whole thing is based on patterns upon patterns.
You have to give it space. Doing this, will have an effect on everything else you been taught by 'other' fellow humans about how the world 'spins'. Its a long process. Years to be accurate!

It starts with YOURSELF being ON THIS PLANET. Maybe smoking weed also lol. No dont... just yourself and the planet. Cause thats all there is. Just experiencing. Righteous judging and you re in the right path my friend :peace:
 
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DrKiz

Well-Known Member
A funny thing with this is that you dont really HAVE TO remember everything you read about it by heart. Because the whole thing is based on patterns upon patterns.
I understand what you are saying, and that was my thoughts reading into it. Not so much importance on memorizing and applying as one would with religious scripture, but more an essence of concept. An open mindedness to experience and intuition.

Recognizing patterns (many that others don't see) is a gift/curse. A gift in that it allows me to see truth in things and accept them regardless of conventional norms and personal emotions. It's true because it's true. It can't be false just because of emotional trickery or obfuscation or because the WHOLE ENTIRE WORLD says it's false..

A curse in that explaining or vocalizing the truth (or a lie discovered) is sometimes incredibly difficult (sometimes impossible) due to the instinctual nature of recognizing these patterns. I feel them more than I see them, if that makes sense? I feel the world looks at patterns in a mathematical sense where 2+2=4, where sometimes I feel patterns are more abstract than mathematical.

Someone paints a house and says "Look, I painted a house."
I paint a woman's womb and say "Look, I painted a house."

Righteous judging and you re in the right path my friend :peace:
Advice we can all use, friend.
 
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Medskunk

Well-Known Member
I feel them more than I see them, if that makes sense? I feel the world looks at patterns in a mathematical sense where 2+2=4, where sometimes I feel patterns are more abstract than mathematical.
It totally makes sense. We feel before we think. Not the opposite. Thats where it gets messed up and thats why we say that it is as simple as it is complex. Depends where your belief is tended. It really is a flick of a switch. You just gotta WANT to see the switch.

It really is a gift/curse, if you accept it (i dont think you have a choice, its coming heheh cause you see it) you ll eventually see that IT IS all mathematics, no matter how chaotic it feels. Its just incredible. I couldnt believe the realisations.
 

DrKiz

Well-Known Member
It totally makes sense. We feel before we think. Not the opposite. Thats where it gets messed up and thats why we say that it is as simple as it is complex. Depends where your belief is tended. It really is a flick of a switch. You just gotta WANT to see the switch.

It really is a gift/curse, if you accept it (i dont think you have a choice, its coming heheh cause you see it) you ll eventually see that IT IS all mathematics, no matter how chaotic it feels. Its just incredible. I couldnt believe the realisations.
I think I've been looking for that switch all my life homie. It's been a constant quest, almost Neo in the Matrix.

And, after further reflection, you are probably right that it is all mathematics... I'm just trying too hard to define the formula, instead of just accepting the answer.

I still want to dig into the second part of what @CannaOnerStar posted, it's a pretty interesting subject, can't wait to dig into it a little more later on!
 

DrKiz

Well-Known Member
Not gnostic but am part of gnostic groups on facebook
What brought you to be interested in Gnosticism? I'm assuming that you are interested in the metaphysical and spiritual aspects of man, or maybe the intellectual discussion... or just curious about the nature of reality. For me it's all of that, I feel like I've found more candy for the brain.
 

spliffendz

Well-Known Member
What brought you to be interested in Gnosticism? I'm assuming that you are interested in the metaphysical and spiritual aspects of man, or maybe the intellectual discussion... or just curious about the nature of reality. For me it's all of that, I feel like I've found more candy for the brain.
Was raised Muslim, went through a spiritual breakdown/alcoholism, experienced 'entities', synchronicities, serendipities, paradoxes, and found sufism through qawwali music :p Also have an interest in religions and philosophy and the purpose of being alive or dead, I could go on and on :p
 

spliffendz

Well-Known Member
Was raised Muslim, went through a spiritual breakdown/alcoholism, experienced 'entities', synchronicities, serendipities, paradoxes, and found sufism through qawwali music :p Also have an interest in religions and philosophy and the purpose of being alive or dead, I could go on and on :p
Oh yeh some kind of hex/evil eye shit was put on me also, which made me want to understand more so I am in magick groups also
 

DrKiz

Well-Known Member
Was raised Muslim, went through a spiritual breakdown/alcoholism, experienced 'entities', synchronicities, serendipities, paradoxes, and found sufism through qawwali music :p Also have an interest in religions and philosophy and the purpose of being alive or dead, I could go on and on :p
I had to look Sufism up, very interesting! I guess at this point you could call me a Sufist Christian??? I don't know if that works... but I don't identify completely with Catholicism or Christianity. I've read a little on a lot of other religions like Buddhism and Sikhism. Also lived with a friend who converted to Islam... but that was like 25 years ago! Nothing seems complete in and of itself, and there is a pattern in religious beliefs... they all seem to be related somewhat, and all seem to be missing something. I like to consider all possibilities and keep an open mind.

Right? What is the purpose?

Oh yeh some kind of hex/evil eye shit was put on me also, which made me want to understand more so I am in magick groups also
Interesting man, care to elaborate on the hex/evil eye?
 

spliffendz

Well-Known Member
I had to look Sufism up, very interesting! I guess at this point you could call me a Sufist Christian??? I don't know if that works... but I don't identify completely with Catholicism or Christianity. I've read a little on a lot of other religions like Buddhism and Sikhism. Also lived with a friend who converted to Islam... but that was like 25 years ago! Nothing seems complete in and of itself, and there is a pattern in religious beliefs... they all seem to be related somewhat, and all seem to be missing something. I like to consider all possibilities and keep an open mind.

Right? What is the purpose?



Interesting man, care to elaborate on the hex/evil eye?
It's too long to go into detail, an eye came into my third eye vision whilst my eyes were closed swirled around and then kind of went pow and then everything went south from there, sleep paralysis, bad luck, entities touching me in my sleep, not letting me sleep, family not believing me, horrific nightmares, shadow hat man, psychosis obviously, drinking got worse etc etc
 

DrKiz

Well-Known Member
sleep paralysis... entities touching me in my sleep... horrific nightmares...shadow man
I've went through this. Terrifying. I can relate. It's gone for the most part, although I occasionally have sleep paralysis and an entity. I've never had any explanation and just thought it was part of my condition. I've told my girl, if she feels me thrashing or moving weird to please please please wake me up. Trying to get out of that and "awake" yourself as you know is a struggle.

EDIT: The scariest thing is the entity inflicts physical pain on me that I can feel. It's fucking terrifying being poked and prodded and being helpless to stop it.

I am very glad I asked you to elaborate.
 
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CannaOnerStar

Well-Known Member
@CannaOnerStar

WOW WOW WOW! You blasphemous bastard! Amazing work! Thank you for taking the time to write this out. It's going to take me some time to unpack this and compress all the information.

I must admit my ignorance, how have I made it this many years without stumbling into this???



You have me hooked. I feel this.



Interesting, I'm going to have to read this explanation a few more times but I get the essence. It helps reconcile a few concerns a have with scripture.



Yes! I believe this. Attachment to earthly things, objects and idols has always felt to me to be a unhealthy and undesirable.



This part of Gnosticism I've read before, not knowing the source. It's been tucked into the back of my mind for sometime. Maybe it's narcissism/ego (Because who's going to admit that they are a hyletic... although a hyletic probably wouldn't have enough introspection to even ask themselves the question and ponder the answer), but reading this long ago... "Hey, I'm a pneumatic". I've been ignorant of the rest of the information, and live largely in my psyche so I could be called a psychic... but the things you are saying vibrate with me and seem to be what I've felt intuitively all along.. so it's not confirmation bias to call myself a "pneumatic". IDK, maybe that's just my ego wanting to classify myself. I can only assume, but no matter, I am what I am. Recognizing patterns in people I can see how they would fit into one of these categories.

Does Gnostic theory say that someone can move between these, or are you born into one of these categories? Maybe this question is answered further down, but I'd like to believe that there can be some movement for a seeker of truth that is capable of introspection and self reflection. Or maybe that person was always what they were, it was just a journey to finally realize and become it?

Ok, reading further this is answered: " In the course of history, humans progress from materialistic sensate slavery, by way of ethical religiosity, to spiritual freedom and liberating Gnosis.... This kind of evolution of consciousness was envisioned by the Gnostics, long before the concept of evolution was known. "

And an explanation for Prophets and great minds: "From earliest times Messengers of the Light have come forth from the True God in order to assist humans in their quest for Gnosis. Only a few of these salvific figures are mentioned in Gnostic scripture; some of the most important are Seth (the third Son of Adam), Jesus, and the Prophet Mani. The majority of Gnostics always looked to Jesus as the principal savior figure (the Soter). "

This is really comforting as it helps reconcile my study of traditional religion into the equation. Not that I should be comforted, because truth is what it is whether it is comfortable or not.

This struck home:



This has a good feel to it, makes sense:




Unpacking this:
"As noted in the discussion above, “hyletic materialists” usually have little interest in morality, while “psychic disciplinarians” often grant to it a great importance. In contrast, “Pneumatic spiritual” persons are generally more concerned with other, higher matters. "

I consider myself a moral person, but morality can be subjective can it not depending on who's perspective? I may be moral to some, immoral to another depending on their belief system. Therefore morality isn't really a thing to be hung up on, as long as I feel good about what I am doing and the actions of others aren't affecting me in a negative way.

AND there it is: Different historical periods also require variant attitudes regarding human conduct.

And how can I not agree with this as this is my sentiment:



Thank you very much for that. It was a well written read. I need to get back to my work, I am going to enjoy reading through the rest and exploring this concept further.

It definitely feels truthful and congruent and aligns with my beliefs.

Thank you again!
Nice post! I think it requires a better reply than what i have time now. Id like to clarify that i did not write the text, its copied from the link i posted at the end of it. Its written by Stephan Hoeller, who is one of the leading figures in true Gnostic scene. There are also some like Alesteir Crowley, whose teachings would be like satanism is to christianity, but he used gnostic terms and shit that confuses people. Crowleys ideas are around egoistic crap masked in esoterism. There are also other so called left hand paths, who call themselves gnostic, but in my opinion they are on the wrong side and do not understand the fundamentals. Which you seem to have some understanding about even tho you havent studied this, which is very good.

I havent really looked too much into this hyletic vs pneumatic thing, i dont see it as very important like that. Different Souls are at different stages of development and different people have different personalities, some which are for example more intuitively focused, while others are more focused on concrete reality through senses. I think we know better more advanced ways to look at different people nowadays, even tho the pneumatic thing can give some insight as well. i think it just basically means intuitive vs sensing focused personality, but im not 100% sure. Jung has a very good theory on personality. I think he wrote some about this as well, but its been like 10 years since i read more of his work, so i dont remember all details on all commentary.

As i mentioned on the other thread(i think) Carl Jungs work is basically these gnostic ideas put in the form of modern psychology.

Here is a link to youtube channel of Hoesllers church with tons of very good lectures from him:

Its the same organisation that hosts the website gnosis.org , from which the original article was from.

This guy also has tons tof good videos. Even tho he labels himself more as a hermetic, its the same core ideas than gnosticism, just terms for the same core ideas from different times and from different places, where they had a bit different symbols and stories etc used.

 

CannaOnerStar

Well-Known Member
Was raised Muslim, went through a spiritual breakdown/alcoholism, experienced 'entities', synchronicities, serendipities, paradoxes, and found sufism through qawwali music :p Also have an interest in religions and philosophy and the purpose of being alive or dead, I could go on and on :p
Not gnostic but am part of gnostic groups on facebook
Sufism is labeled by most as the gnostic sect of Islam ;) Personally also i see Sufis as part of the same family. i dont think the thing that the gnostic ideas are revolved around is important. Its not about the story, but about the wisdom that the story tells. Different stories can tell the same wisdom.

Just to make clear to @DrKiz gnosticism is not some one religion, but an umbrella term for many religions that share some common core concepts, which originated from Egypt. For example Mandeans dont even believe in Christ, they think that Jesus was an imposter. Also there have been many sects that are mixture of gnostic ideas and other religions, like Sufism, with Islam and Gnosticism, Kabbalah with Judaism and Gnosticism and also there were many different Jewish sects of gnostics, for example the Essenes, who Jesus was most likely part of(remember that church fathers corrupted his teachings to large degree). Also the esoteric sects of buddhism are more gnosticly oriented. Roots of hinduism, buddhism and jainaism are most likely in gnostic teachings coming together with old indian Vedic religions and creating these offshoots in the east. Meditation etc that are commonly associated with buddhism was taught by Egyptians way earlier and were part of early christians and many other folks, until church replaced it with praying and the meditation traditions only stayed alive much more in east.
 
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DrKiz

Well-Known Member
Nice post! I think it requires a better reply than what i have time now. Id like to clarify that i did not write the text, its copied from the link i posted at the end of it. Its written by Stephan Hoeller
Any sort of intelligent response is more than I usually get in a day from anyone. I have more time on my hands than I usually do, so when that happens I'll tend to submerge myself into things like this I find stimulating. It becomes more important to me than the outside world. Boredom crushes my soul.

There are also some like Alesteir Crowley, whose teachings would be like satanism is to christianity, but he used gnostic terms and shit that confuses people. Crowleys ideas are around egoistic crap masked in esoterism. There are also other so called left hand paths, who call themselves gnostic, but in my opinion they are on the wrong side and do not understand the fundamentals.
Mind reader! That was going to be another avenue of questioning I was going to take you to task on. Looks like that isn't required. My study of Christianity took me to places that warned of "the evils of Gnosticism!". Fortunately, I like to challenge my beliefs. Once I started reading and things started to resonance within me I told myself "hang on for awhile... let's see where this path leads.." Glad I stuck around. I read some Crowley about 10 years ago, didn't float my boat. I just couldn't take it seriously. Gives me a bad vibe. Probably mostly from the influence of William Cooper and my dislike for "pop culture".

Speaking of that, I need to finish listening to the rest of "Mystery Babylon". I'm sure eventually he gets into Gnosticism. I'd like to hear his take. His program starts at sun worship and tells the story of religion developing from there. He was a seeker of truth, open to being challenged and could back up his statements.

I havent really looked too much into this hyletic vs pneumatic thing, i dont see it as very important like that. Different Souls are at different stages of development and different people have different personalities, some which are for example more intuitively focused, while others are more focused on concrete reality through senses. I think we know better more advanced ways to look at different people nowadays
Excellent, thank you for the comment. I think I understand more, I was putting too much thought into it. Now that I've read more I think it's just a way to classify different personalities, as you say, to get a better understanding of things.

Pleasure chatting with you, and my brain says "thank you!".
 
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