American Banks Dumping Dollars for the Yen

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
How about mergers that happen pre bankruptcies? I love that your nitpicking when it's essentially still a bankrupted bank. But whatever you are technically correct. But I will say it is a technicality that really doesn't matter. If the banks were efficient they would not have closed. And I don't see banks closing as a bad thing at all. This many is just stupid in the age of communication we are in.

I would guess we will find a equilibrium of maybe two hundred, but that is just going off of thinking about 2-4 main banks per state and a few mega national banks.

And my pants are fresh and clean my man. I'm not the one paying homage to any deity!
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Ron Paul isn't the Shooting Star of The Austrian School of Economics either, that spot is reserved for Rothbard and Mises.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Arnt they the dead ones? I'm sorry I get confused with all the sect leaders. I mean he is the face of Austrian econotmics for the generation of people who claim it now, he is the first they heard and the one they took the koolaid from.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Yeah they rank up there with archemdis Einstein, gallieo, but not too many people would say that Marx is among them, Nor am I convinced of fisher or velblen, mainly because what fisher are you talking about and veblen is a somewhat obscure Econ guy that I haven't looked into.

That is if as you seem to believe people that have held up to full on scrutiny of mathematicians and scientists and came out on top still.

And further more there are plenty of examples of freedman and keynes being wrong. It's not like real economists somehow feel that all their work is scripture and a lot of changes in their models have happened over the years to make it more accurate as we get better data.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
So by your own admission the people who you take for granted as being right all the time are actually wrong quite often. You do know that your college is teaching you Keynesian economics right?

Marx not a leader of economic revolution? You might want to grab a history book so you don't look so myopic.

Irving Fisher
 

jeff f

New Member
So by your own admission the people who you take for granted as being right all the time are actually wrong quite often. You do know that your college is teaching you Keynesian economics right?

Marx not a leader of economic revolution? You might want to grab a history book so you don't look so myopic.

Irving Fisher
speaking of keynes, how long must we suffer with this current situation before we realize, AGAIN, that the guy was full of shit?
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Again anyone that pops out Keynes vs classical that is not showing you the small actual differences between the two models, which essentially boils down to classical system is the keynesian system at full employment and they only really differ when a recession hits and we are no longer at full employment is spouting political garbage.

But yeah people can be wrong, doesn't mean that by the time the published model is fully dissected by the entire field and in practice for a bit and the holes are discovered and changed with the new data the system they came up with isn't aa accurate as possible. This is not some rule of thumb science, there is a very extensive process of eliminating the bullshit.

And as far as what is happening now shows that the model was right.

You have a recession so as unemployment was rising you have consumption declining. Which leads to more unemployment which led to more declines in consumption. So stimulus package and tax breaks for most the people did in fact add to the increase in GDP, which helped increase the money in peoples hands and we were on our way to a pretty darn quick recovery.

And even though housing wasn't going to restart meaning it would still take a while to get all the unemployed non skilled labor force back to work, we should have started to see the lagging indicator of unemployment start to decline as business started to feel better about hiring.

But then you had all the deficit hawks come out (just like in the great depression) and force a stop in spending right at the first signs of recovery. And with unemployment benefits stopping and less consumption that comes with that, and the uncertainty that comes with businesses not being sure about what was going to happen with government spending or taxes, they got spooked and didn't turn on the hiring to the level that was needed.

Now to fully live up to depression era economics, the republicans are trying to block the tax structure Obama wants to put in place and that is fucking retarded. Leaving us at the cusp of a double dip.

All because they don't want the country on track until they get enough seats, maybe who knows. I tend to think that they are all just a bunch of idiots and actually think they are doing the right thing.

Down to the charts you can see this from economics coming from a mile away. But alas economics is not sociology or psychology so there is not a stupidity factor build into the models to predict irrational behavior. It is mor a study of efficiency, and the idiots we elect don't have a fucking clue about being efficient.

Even the decline in money that led to our exports increasing, I think that I actually laid out this chain of events back at the start on this board. And shit was going along just as it should have before the last couple months.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Down to the charts you can see this from economics coming from a mile away. But alas economics is not sociology or psychology so there is not a stupidity factor build into the models to predict irrational behavior. It is mor a study of efficiency, and the idiots we elect don't have a fucking clue about being efficient.

Even the decline in money that led to our exports increasing, I think that I actually laid out this chain of events back at the start on this board. And shit was going along just as it should have before the last couple months.

Hey I think you might have figured something out. Human behavior can be very hard to predict. The greatest Economists are the ones who can predict human behavior the best and not the one who can read a graph. Remember that quote by Greenspan I posted? The one where he couldn't figure out why the economy was doing what it was doing because his graphs could not account for the "Irrational Exuberance" of investors?

Things go as planned when you are in full mode QE, its when the Stimulus is removed that things revert back.

We actually need this crash to happen. There is no other way to clear out all the bad debt. I would much rather have 3 really bad years than 3 decades of no growth.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
I think you missed the point almost completely.

This is not a statement about how we origionally got into this mess, this is a statement about the economic forecast and how when they are done, they are done with a specific set (maybe even a few sets) of criteria, and do not have every way the stupidity of the senate and congress will show itself by the time the final legislation is passed.

Irrational exhuberance, is actually a part of economics (why when you see forecasts printed out it is always given in ranges, and not the exact numbers politicians like to spout), same with opportunity costs, and a handful of other provable theories that Austrian economics contributed back in the 1700-1930's because since then they have produced crap because they are holding onto some sort of belief that they are the only ones that know and have stagnated just like most the old martial arts that try to brainwash their students into believing that a chi force in their palm is enough to stop a actual fighter, and when in the ring with a true fighter today get stomped.

And much like this new cat that loves to post his conspiracies, it is a good idea to actually take in the whole conversation that people quoted make and not just little soundbites. I am not even sure which Greenspan interview you are talking about, but I would think that there is more to his statement other than just that. And this is coming from someone that thinks Greenspan was severely overrated the more I learn about him and how he went about things as chairman of the Fed.

If you want to see more about the social side of economic theory check into behavioral economics and game theory, it is a very interesting field and deals mathematically with the struggles models have that deal with how people actually choose their decisions.

We actually need this crash to happen. There is no other way to clear out all the bad debt. I would much rather have 3 really bad years than 3 decades of no growth.
I agree that 3 bad years are better than 3 decades of no growth, but we are in complete disagreement of needing this crash to happen.

I know you really are deep into Austrian economics, but if you have time, can you read the full wiki page on it. I am not saying wiki is the most reliable source of info, but I read through the entire page yesterday when the site was down and was pretty surprised by it. One thing you have just written is hinted on that site and I do find it interesting to see it now.

The whole idea of crashes being needed to clear debt is crazy. That is like saying that the only way to get out of debt is to file for bankruptcy, sure it is a possibility of getting out, but there are several other ways to do it and many would be far easier on all the others you dealt with.

And again this is another issue with this political party in disguise called Austrian economics, they feel that they have the only answers, and because they dismiss mathematics and statistical analysis, they are able to convince the people that buy into then to not pay attention to the other schools, because it is confusing and difficult and they know that if they say things as long as they can verbally make it sound good it will be taken as truth.

There are many ways to slow down the bubble bursting and crashes are not inevitable. They make it seem so because they wrongly have you convinced that gold is the only answer and that money is worthless, but it is not the case. I was reading Ron Pauls news (laugh) articles and there is a spot that he said something along the lines of "The dollar since 1913 to today has devalued 95%, it will not be long before the complete destruction of our dollar will take place". That is not the exact quote, but I am sure you can see it is something that is not far off from his words.

The problem with this logic is that this somehow is trying to sell people on the 'logic' that the dollar can not go to 105% of what it was worth in 1913, or that it could go to 200% eventually, or even 10000000%. And even then you would have to realize that it is entirely probable at that point that the value of our time would still be similar to it is now just with a different nominal amount attached to our time. We would still be able to purchase the goods of those times and not have issues with standard of living or destruction of wealth, because it is just a nominal value and money is really just a medium of exchange.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
The US dollar cannot go up, the more they print the more it goes down, it really is that simple. The Fed no longer is concerned with a stable value for the dollar, they only know how to inflate and nothing else.

You need to realize that Hyperinflation is not caused by inflation. Inflation is growth of the money supply, Hyperinflation is loss of confidence in the currency. You can easily have deflation and then overnight Hyperinflation. I think you assume I think they are a correlating phenomena.

The Bond market could very easily blow up in a couple of hours, making the "Flash Crash" pale in comparison, the only thing you need to get it started is a large rise in the price of a Commodity and all those banks that hold the majority of treasuries will sell those treasuries to buy that commodity. The Fed will of course buy those Treasuries to keep the rate down and the dollar as strong as possible, but it won't work. The Fed is actually very limited in a crisis.

JP Morgan has left the Silver market, JP Morgan was the Largest naked short seller in the world, shorting more silver than even exists. The Volker rule makes it impossible for them to trade for their own book any longer. I would advise to buy silver if you want to make some money, seriously. Screw gold. Its a Bargain at $22 an ounce , spot is 19.30 right this minute, but you have to pay a 10% premium to buy the actual physical metal, which is about the best way to own it. Fun to play with, pure silver has a very distinct sound.

There isn't anything wrong with Austrian Economics, I don't know everything there is to know about it either. I was schooled in Keynesian just like you, In fact I majored in business. My dad barely graduated from high school, but every business he has tried has been VERY successful. He always said he just used common sense, I listened to him give me some pointers and I was amazed by how very similar to Austrian it was. He is pissed he is going to get taxed more ( He makes more than $250k a year).
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Here's the thing, I get you had a couple Econ classes back in the day. Most likely a entry level and maybe a intermediate macro class and a micro class or two. But we both then know that even getting a's in those classes don't mean they teach it to a level that the reasoning and math, nor the statistical breakdown that make them up. And even 20 years ago it is not like they had as much info as we now do, forcing even more rigorous changes to the models.

Think of all the Major events since then, the info on tax decreases under regan wasn't until late eighties, the recession under bush senior that introduced the importance of foriegn investment, the dot com burst, oh the chicago bank in 87?, the moves of the nineties that gave us a booming decade, and so many more without even talking of all the tremendous events over seas.

The models keep showing that when we apply the data from these events and examine what happened the main theory that you constantly refer to as keynsian (even though this is not a discussion about long run or short run, which is the only real time the distinction should even be brought up) comes out correct.

Austrian economics is not anything other than maybe a good book about rules of thumbs, or common sense, but really it is just like intelligent design. They say we are headed towards trouble because of the dollar being not linked to gold, but then for years they chant the sky is falling, and because every so often they happen to go into a recession, doesn't mean they called anything. Continuity does not equal corollary.

The US dollar cannot go up, the more they print the more it goes down, it really is that simple. The Fed no longer is concerned with a stable value for the dollar, they only know how to inflate and nothing else.
Because a 2.5ish inflation rate actually is a good thing for our economy every study has shown, and the fed fights to maintain it, you get that they know nothing else? And by stable it is actually a 2.5ish inflation rate that they have seemed to maintain. And even that is a struggle as they learned more and more over the last almost hundred years, from the classical economics of the four ties and the Keynes model in the fifties and half the sixties, to the new classical model that regan introduced to the monetarist model that dominated to the new keynsian model that Clinton brought in, back a bit with bush, before the model now which you're determined to call keyensian. And every time the politicians that we entrust our economy to, decide they know more than the economists and do what ever spending I'll advised or not that they want.

You need to realize that Hyperinflation is not caused by inflation. Inflation is growth of the money supply, Hyperinflation is loss of confidence in the currency. You can easily have deflation and then overnight Hyperinflation. I think you assume I think they are a correlating phenomena.
Do you realize the scale of what you are assuming? That would mean that about what a forty percent of the people would have to pretty much decide their money is worthless and dump it? That pretty much would mean in a coordinated effort they would have to purchase not only all the raw materials but all the land and all the guns, and then somehow remove us all onto a vacation or something so that we would not fight it..

America is not postwar Germany, not zimbabwee, ect. If nothing else you should see that as much as you hate the banks they would never let this happen because it would mean they would not get all the products made that their CEOs demand if we don't have a vibrant economy.

The Bond market could very easily blow up in a couple of hours, making the "Flash Crash" pale in comparison, the only thing you need to get it started is a large rise in the price of a Commodity and all those banks that hold the majority of treasuries will sell those treasuries to buy that commodity. The Fed will of course buy those Treasuries to keep the rate down and the dollar as strong as possible, but it won't work. The Fed is actually very limited in a crisis.
With a little more economic thought you would see that even if that happened, like a devaluing that Mexico boned by letting some companies know about it before hand. The market would stabilize, because eventually the dollar would get to a point that the investors would want to get back into a cheaper commodity. America is too good of an investment to let it drop more than three four spots even in the worst conditions.

Just like a fantasy football draft, you wouldn't let Peyton manning slip to fifth qb picked.

JP Morgan has left the Silver market, JP Morgan was the Largest naked short seller in the world, shorting more silver than even exists. The Volker rule makes it impossible for them to trade for their own book any longer. I would advise to buy silver if you want to make some money, seriously. Screw gold. Its a Bargain at $22 an ounce , spot is 19.30 right this minute, but you have to pay a 10% premium to buy the actual physical metal, which is about the best way to own it. Fun to play with, pure silver has a very distinct sound.
I like silver too, but not for the reasons you listed aside from being cheap. Those stats don't scare me anymore because I did the math last time they broke records and realized it was the equivalent of a two percent move for the day they made.

There isn't anything wrong with Austrian Economics, I don't know everything there is to know about it either. I was schooled in Keynesian just like you, In fact I majored in business. My dad barely graduated from high school, but every business he has tried has been VERY successful. He always said he just used common sense, I listened to him give me some pointers and I was amazed by how very similar to Austrian it was. He is pissed he is going to get taxed more ( He makes more than $250k a year).
I'm truly do think it is great that your dad has done well. And understand taxes suck. But even he has to admit that pretty much every successful business over the last few decades has made a tremendous amount of their profits due to the loose credit and the amount of money that it allowed them and their customer base to put into their pockets. All of us are producers selling a product, and we made a lot of progress over the last few decades and we are at a point that the economy was outpacing the people working In it.

Too much money has been lent and injected. The high spending in military, too much wasted social spending, too much money to misaimed crime fighting, too much judicial spending, piss poor management of our workforces education, ect. And it doesn't even mean that the amou ts were too much or too little I guess, just not enough in the right places creating bloat like an overwatered plant.


But that is more a problem with the elected officials that don't even know the right questions to ask much less the answers they get, than it is with the people who have dedicated their lives studying and working in those fields in my opinion.
 

jeff f

New Member
.

And even though housing wasn't going to restart meaning it would still take a while to get all the unemployed non skilled labor force back to work, we should have started to see the lagging indicator of unemployment start to decline as business started to feel better about hiring.

But then you had all the deficit hawks come out (just like in the great depression) and force a stop in spending right at the first signs of recovery. And with unemployment benefits stopping and less consumption that comes with that, and the uncertainty that comes with businesses not being sure about what was going to happen with government spending or taxes, they got spooked and didn't turn on the hiring to the level that was needed.

Now to fully live up to depression era economics, the republicans are trying to block the tax structure Obama wants to put in place and that is fucking retarded. Leaving us at the cusp of a double dip.

.
this demonstrates the fallacy of your thinking.

you believe that 40 guys in congress put a halt to spending stimuli?



the majority of the spending is still ahead of us in '10and '11.

you also seem to think that businesses hire when they are not "spooked".

being spooked or not has nothing to do with hiring.

i build houses (insert your business here). if i hire 50 people tomorrow, it doesnt increase the number of people who come through the door to buy a house.

business hires people to fill orders. no orders, no hiring. its really that simple.

so until you can convince the "filthy, stinking, no good" (sarcasm) rich people (people who have positive numbers in the bank) to start buying stuff and investing, this economy will continue to fall, stumble, putt.....

borrowing money (ie FED,govt) and throwing it down the ally doesnt do a Gdamn thing. its just passing money (that isnt there cuz its borrowed) around in a big circle.....no value added.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
this demonstrates the fallacy of your thinking.

you believe that 40 guys in congress put a halt to spending stimuli?
Not sure where you got this from what I said, the only time I said republicans was about Obama tax rates. But the deficit hawks did stop the unemployment for a bit, and that is not only the dems and republicans but also the people bitching nonstop. You have banks not investing, you have businesses with huge sums of cash not utilizing the low rates to expand business. And by your own business you are not hiring those workers that would have their pay to spend on other goods.

See it is the people that are able to afford your goods that you need to spend their money, and they mostly rely on your workers to purchase their goods for money to afford your homes. It is the chicken and egg thing. That is why instead of waiting for the system to get to the bottom it is a good time for the government to start buying your services or others like you to get your guys working and buying other stores good so they have money to demand new homes which gets you and your guys back on the job.

Then as the economy gets rolling again, slowly taking out the money that it cost to do the economic stimulus over decades.

Ideally they would just not spend the money willy nilly on good times to have a nice surplus ready for the next disaster but we seem to not get that important little tidbit at the top of our government aside from a very brief time with Clinton.

This is not about rich people being no good, there is a reason not sticking your neck out is a saying, it is ingrained in the fact we survived to evolve to what we are today, and not just ancient lion food. It is about them not understanding and complaining when all the evidence points to allowing the government to stick it's neck out working the best to fix a shitty economy until it is right. And not being stupid and hiding behind the people and businesses to take the fall.
 

jeff f

New Member
Not sure where you got this from what I said, the only time I said republicans was about Obama tax rates. But the deficit hawks did stop the unemployment for a bit, and that is not only the dems and republicans but also the people bitching nonstop. You have banks not investing, you have businesses with huge sums of cash not utilizing the low rates to expand business. And by your own business you are not hiring those workers that would have their pay to spend on other goods.

.
there you go again. if a company has orders to fill, they increase emplyment when they start to fall behind. you dont hire people for "anticipated" orders. you make no sense. if i have no customers, why would i borrow money to expand?

while you may know how to spit out all the things your professor wants to hear, you have no fucking idea how business starts, survives or expands. you only expand when you get excess orders or are antisipating them in the near future.

your professor isnt teaching you the basics of how business starts, how economies get rolling. and if your business adds no value, you get no business. govt jobs are the opposite of that.

and if you ever applied for a business loan, as i have, with all your jargon they would turn you down. they want to see a business model that will expand in order to pay the loan off. you can mumble all the crap you want from your text book. if you dont show the banker in very specific and well thought out terms, you leaving with very empty pockets and very humiliated.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Yeah if you would just read the next paragraph you would see your post is just proving it.

The fact you have no demand and no reason to hire should open your eyes to the fact that if the government plopped an order for a few jobs for you, you would in fact hire those workers. There is nothing about anticipated orders, I'm saying actual paid for orders and enough work that you would need to hire to fill them.

And I'm getting taught exactly how to open up businesses, and run them and the mathematical, economic, financial and accounting to do it right. What's more I have been in management for the last decade, and even that doesn't mean anything right?

I think it is funny when people say that somehow my very comfortable life is somehow going to end with me a pauper and banks not wanting my business, because my education is so misguided....
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
There are 12 million unsold homes in the USA as of today, the government can Order as many homes as it would like, but it won't help a damn thing, in fact it will only make things worse. Why? Because in order for the Gubbermint to pay off on all those orders it has to BORROW the money at INTEREST. Who is responsible for the interest? You and me buddy. I would rather they just left it alone and let the problems work themselves out on the free market. The TBTF banks and Mega Corporations can pound sand.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
That is why very little if any at all would go to new home construction, and instead to roads, electrical grid, bridges, works projects, and new industries. Even if it doesn't put jobs directly into builders like Jeffs pocket, it does go to businesses that hire from the same pool of workers.
The interest under obamas tax plan would be placed onto the shoulders of the people that benefitted most from all the loose rules in lending, investment opportunities, tax breaks, and housing boom over the last couple decades before this crisis hit. And they would lose far more money if we just allowed the bottom to completely fall out.

While I agree that theeople we have in senate and congress that are the ones drafting the plan don't really know what they are doing and don't listen to the economists saying it was not enough, as pretty much all of them would say, it was better than nothing and did stop the total meltdown. Leaving them alone to fail would have lead pretty much to a total depression that would have taken many years to get out of, and most directly affected the middle and lower class.
 

jeff f

New Member
Yeah if you would just read the next paragraph you would see your post is just proving it.

The fact you have no demand and no reason to hire should open your eyes to the fact that if the government plopped an order for a few jobs for you, you would in fact hire those workers. There is nothing about anticipated orders, I'm saying actual paid for orders and enough work that you would need to hire to fill them.

And I'm getting taught exactly how to open up businesses, and run them and the mathematical, economic, financial and accounting to do it right. What's more I have been in management for the last decade, and even that doesn't mean anything right?

I think it is funny when people say that somehow my very comfortable life is somehow going to end with me a pauper and banks not wanting my business, because my education is so misguided....

thats called "central planning". pretty much failed everywhere its been tried. your economic models that you are learning are being taught to you by people who have never had a real job, never met a payroll, and have no fucking idea what they are talking about.

paul krugman comes to mind. pure idiotic nonsense.

i am smart enough to know when i need/want to buy something. i dont need a govt taking my money and telling me what i need to order.

the central planners told us if we spent a quadrillion dollars the unemployment rate wouldnt go above 8%. well its been above 8 for over a year. how much proof do you need to understand that tim the tax cheat geitner, and barack, i never had a real job, obama dont have a clue? unemployment up again but the little child president says we are headed in the right direction....compared to what?

here is one that will go down in the annuls of history "summer of recovery"......haha. very funny unless you are one of the poor saps not working in the govt.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
thats called "central planning". pretty much failed everywhere its been tried. your economic models that you are learning are being taught to you by people who have never had a real job, never met a payroll, and have no fucking idea what they are talking about.
Really? Are you sure, or is this more bs that you felt like saying even though you have no information about it and feel that because your wealth of knowledge from construction has giving you some special insight, that all the business men, people examining the economy for the last couple hundred years, and thousands of professors that have dedicated their lives pulling all this information together into models that are very good predictors of what goes on, do not have? Yeah because you decided that they only have ever been in a classroom and not ever worked jobs, did work for companies, owned companies, been in conferences with other businesses throughout the world, they must not have.

paul krugman comes to mind. pure idiotic nonsense.
Oh so you have read his stuff? Looked into the papers he wrote, and understood it? Because I don't think that you have, because I am guessing you are not able to really get it if you thought I was talking in jargon before.

i am smart enough to know when i need/want to buy something. i dont need a govt taking my money and telling me what i need to order.
And I am glad you are smart, but you should read my posts again. The government would not tell you what you have to purchase. What I had said is they would offer jobs, if you don't want to take them and not get work in your down time that is your call, but there are plenty of business men that will be more than happy to do so. And their guys having money in their pocket is a very good thing for our economy, even if in your vast experience you think that it is better for them to not have any work and to not have any money so more and more people can have their homes foreclosed on and bringing down even more wealth from loss of value of their homes that are now apart of the list of bankruptcies, which means the neighbors all lose their value too because they will never be able to sell their 150k home for the 30k the HUD home down the street is going for.

And with the 8% thing. You never heard an economist say that. You did hear Obama say something around those lines but didn't hear the rest of his speech I am guessing. Economist would not be able to come up with a number like 8%, the CBO would always give a range. And 8.5 would have been the low with the info they put into the model. With different parameters the number would change.

Here from Politifact: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/09/eric-cantor/Cantor-and-other-republicans-say-obama-promised-s/

What we saw from the administration in January was a projection, not a promise. And it was a projection that came with heavy disclaimers.
"It should be understood that all of the estimates presented in this memo are subject to significant margins of error," the report states. "There is the more fundamental uncertainty that comes with any estimate of the effects of a program. Our estimates of economic relationships and rules of thumb are derived from historical experience and so will not apply exactly in any given episode. Furthermore, the uncertainty is surely higher than normal now because the current recession is unusual both in its fundamental causes and its severity."


There's also a footnote that goes along with the chart that states: "Forecasts of the unemployment rate without the recovery plan vary substantially. Some private forecasters anticipate unemployment rates as high as 11% in the absence of action."
Why do you think that they put that in there? The economists are not the ones pulling the strings, it is the politicians.

the central planners told us if we spent a quadrillion dollars the unemployment rate wouldnt go above 8%. well its been above 8 for over a year. how much proof do you need to understand that tim the tax cheat geitner, and barack, i never had a real job, obama dont have a clue? unemployment up again but the little child president says we are headed in the right direction....compared to what?
Compared to where we were heading. The fact is that the economy is still very fragile, but still moving in the right direction, even if it slows at times and threatens to backtrack. Being at 11% with a crippled banking industry (if they would have been allowed to fail, the jobs that the stimulus has created, the jobs that it had stopped from doing lay offs due to getting contracts, the increase in home purchases briefly, the car stimulus, the 80billion they put out for small business loans, extended unemployment, all have helped people out tremendously.

You may not want to believe it because it may not have directly helped you out, but to all those people (one of which was the car dealer I bought my new truck from a couple months back for one) it was a very important boost to help them out and get them over the hump that this recession caused.

But I guess when you want someone to be wrong it will not matter what reality is, they will be wrong to you.
 
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